Real wigan starting 17

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Davo5 said:

My starting 17

1.Hardaker

2.French

3.Bibby 

4.Thornley 

5.Marshall

6.Cust

7.Smith

8.Mago

9.Leuluai 

10.Singleton

11.Farrell 

12.Bateman 

13.Pearce-Paul

Ellis,Shorrocks,Havard,O’Neil 

That 1-7 looks as poor as I have seen for quite some time. French has to be at full back for me, you want him with the ball as often as possible and he adds far more than Hardaker in my opinion. I just cant take to Hardaker but would probably stick him at centre again with Bibby on the wing. There's certainly not much x factor in that backline.

I really hope Mago and Singleton turn up and produce the goods. If not it could be a long season. If they do provide much needed go forward then we certainly have a lot of strength and depth in the forwards with the young players off the bench.

[Davo5]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

That 1-7 looks as poor as I have seen for quite some time. French has to be at full back for me, you want him with the ball as often as possible and he adds far more than Hardaker in my opinion. I just cant take to Hardaker but would probably stick him at centre again with Bibby on the wing. There's certainly not much x factor in that backline.

I really hope Mago and Singleton turn up and produce the goods. If not it could be a long season. If they do provide much needed go forward then we certainly have a lot of strength and depth in the forwards with the young players off the bench.

I agree if we get the 2020 Bevan French but he hasn’t done a preseason in 2 years and we don’t know if he’ll be fully fit any time soon,so that’s why I’d have him on the wing,at least for the the first part of the season.

[The storm]

11 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

I agree if we get the 2020 Bevan French but he hasn’t done a preseason in 2 years and we don’t know if he’ll be fully fit any time soon,so that’s why I’d have him on the wing,at least for the the first part of the season.

Thornley has played really well for leigh 

I think he will more than hold his own 

[Saint Toppy]

35 minutes ago, Damien said:

I really hope Mago and Singleton turn up and produce the goods. If not it could be a long season. If they do provide much needed go forward then we certainly have a lot of strength and depth in the forwards with the young players off the bench.

Not sure how much time Mago spent in the front row in his younger days but the last few years he's predominantly played 2nd row as an edge forward. Given Wigan's forwards were poor in a fair few games last year (and Singleton was awful) its a big gamble to use a back-rower as your starting prop. 

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Not sure how much time Mago spent in the front row in his younger days but the last few years he's predominantly played 2nd row as an edge forward. Given Wigan's forwards were poor in a fair few games last year (and Singleton was awful) its a big gamble to use a back-rower as your starting prop. 

I actually meant to write Mago and Eliis, the 2 new prop signings. I'm not really a fan of Singleton either.

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Best attacking weapon that has played  3 games since the 2020 Grand Final & playing Hardaker in his best position.

I disagree Dav, Hardacre could be the best winger in the country, I consider the best match he has played for a long time was when he went out to the left wing in the 2020 GF.

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

On last seasons form Smith wont be getting anywhere near a test shirt anytime soon. Fair enough he wasn't helped by plenty of poor performers around him but he had some real shockers himself. Looked like a little boy lost in a lot of games in 2021. Contrast that to someone like Pryce who's team also massively underperformed in a lot of games but he as an individual really stepped up. 

Totally agree, I was as being a little sarcastic in how he was described so many times by our friendly Sky pundits.

[Exiled Wiganer]

Christ, Toppy in complete counsel of perfection “they don’t play for my team so they must be crucified” mode about Smith…

[Scubby]

2 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Christ, Toppy in complete counsel of perfection “they don’t play for my team so they must be crucified” mode about Smith…

Absolutely, the next couple of years are big for Smith. Quite a few half backs take a while to find their game. Luke Gale was promising but pretty average until he reached his mid 20s. 

[WN83]

We’re an unknown quantity in many ways and that leaves us open to wild predictions either way. The likes of Cust, Ellis, Mago and even Field could be great but they also could be dreadful. I hear pretty good reports on all the Aussie signings but until they’re here and playing, I can’t claim to know a great deal about them. The usual suspects will write these guys off but they know as much as the next man.

 

The upsides for us will hopefully be a better coaching team, a key attacking weapon like French being back fit and the young forwards being a year on. It’s time for a couple of the young forwards to take that next step forward. At worst having a couple of Aussie forwards coming in and having Isa back in the pack, will mean these young forwards won’t be over burdened (as they were last year). At times we had 5 or 6 young forwards in our 17 and that won’t work unless they’re all exceptional. That should be down to 2 or 3 at the start of 2022 and it feels a far better balance. It should ensure all the young forwards are forced to fight for a spot. There are 3 or 4 that should go to the top IMO. 
 

 

 

[The storm]

22 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Not sure how much time Mago spent in the front row in his younger days but the last few years he's predominantly played 2nd row as an edge forward. Given Wigan's forwards were poor in a fair few games last year (and Singleton was awful) its a big gamble to use a back-rower as your starting prop. 

When you say wigan forwards were poor

What other team in world rugby league as yiung as wigan in some games last season 

 

SMITHIES

BYRNE

SHORROCKS

HAVARD

PEARCE PAUL

PARTINGTON. 

virtually all on the park at the same time and john bateman not really on form. 

So Mago and Ellis add some very solid NRL exoerience 

BRADLEY ONEIL is a very exciting 9 who i saw play at my team widnes. He is top top quality 

Plus Wigan have the best coaching team in super league 

 

Ps

Im a widnes fan 

 

[glossop saint]

1 hour ago, The storm said:

When you say wigan forwards were poor

What other team in world rugby league as yiung as wigan in some games last season 

 

SMITHIES

BYRNE

SHORROCKS

HAVARD

PEARCE PAUL

PARTINGTON. 

virtually all on the park at the same time and john bateman not really on form. 

So Mago and Ellis add some very solid NRL exoerience 

BRADLEY ONEIL is a very exciting 9 who i saw play at my team widnes. He is top top quality 

Plus Wigan have the best coaching team in super league 

 

Ps

Im a widnes fan 

 

Just because they have a young pack doesn't mean they weren't poor. Just because they might be promising doesn't mean that they weren't poor.

Not sure how you can say promoting the youth team manager will make them the best management team in the league. Similar to the young forwards, maybe promising but definitely unproven and definitely not at this stage the best in the league.

As ever most people are at the extremes but in reality last season Wigan were not up to their usual and expected standards but looking at where they finished in the table were hardly relegation fodder. I expect that it will be similar this year. Not up to the expected Wigan standard but top half of the table.

 

[WN83]

We had many games where we needed to take Isa or Farrell (or both) out of the pack and play them at centre. We had a coach who wouldn't pick Bullock or Clark (rightly or wrongly) and we had Tony Clubb, who was a mixture of useless and suspended. It lead to our starting 6 forwards and the 3 or 4 on the bench including sometimes as many as 6 or 7 lads 22 years old and under. That is a recipe for disaster and one not many teams would thrive on, in fact most sides would struggle to eek as many wins out as Wigan did. 

On the upside, we've now got a lot of good young forwards with plenty of experience at the back of them. I'd imagine we'll start the season with a pack along the lines of Singleton, Powell, Ellis, Isa, Farrell and Bateman and will have Mago and Harry Smith (or Jai Field) on the bench. That will leave 2 bench spots for the best of the rest. My choices would be Ethan Havard and Morgan Smithies but it'll be a scrap between those two and Byrne, Shorrocks, Pearce-Paul, Partington and McDonnell. In time I'd also expect Brad O'Neill to get some games and he is a fabulous player. The best of the lot could well be a kid who hasn't made his debut for us yet in Matty Nicholson. He looks extremely exciting in the academy games and I wouldn't be surprised to see him push ahead of a few of the others this season. 

I'd like another experienced forward, if only to add cover but we're in a far better position than we were going in to 2021. 

[WN83]

Just now, glossop saint said:

Just because they have a young pack doesn't mean they weren't poor. Just because they might be promising doesn't mean that they weren't poor.

Not sure how you can say promoting the youth team manager will make them the best management team in the league. Similar to the young forwards, maybe promising but definitely unproven and definitely not at this stage the best in the league.

As ever most people are at the extremes but in reality last season Wigan were not up to their usual and expected standards but looking at where they finished in the table were hardly relegation fodder. I expect that it will be similar this year. Not up to the expected Wigan standard but top half of the table.

 

Playing all the young forwards together was suicide but it doesn't take away from my belief that they're comfortably the best group of young forwards in Superleague. They've proven that at academy level over a long period of time and certainly in the cases of Havard, Smithies and Shorrocks, against the Australian academy. They've been handled horrendously by Adrian Lam these past few seasons though and hopefully that hasn't hurt them. I'm confident that will change next season and they'll get the required rest periods needed and not be flogged to death. 

[glossop saint]

1 minute ago, WN83 said:

Playing all the young forwards together was suicide but it doesn't take away from my belief that they're comfortably the best group of young forwards in Superleague. They've proven that at academy level over a long period of time and certainly in the cases of Havard, Smithies and Shorrocks, against the Australian academy. They've been handled horrendously by Adrian Lam these past few seasons though and hopefully that hasn't hurt them. I'm confident that will change next season and they'll get the required rest periods needed and not be flogged to death. 

I agree that as a group they probably are the best group of young forwards in the competition. But just because they are young doesn't mean that they are good and consistently good. Amd just because they are the best group doesn't mean that they have the best individuals. It is a big ask to throw a whole pack of young forwards into the intensity of superleague and last year they were lacking despite the promise and potential of what they may become.

Despite being a Saints fan I hope that they do achieve their potential and raise the standard in SL but I don't know how people can claim they will be up there this season based on their performance last season and the fact that they are young.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

Field is heading back to Aus if you believe this - https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/the-mole-robert-lui-north-queensland-cowboys-luciano-leilua-wests-tigers/df39699c-9e53-452a-99cb-13ed56deab40

[WN83]

9 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

I agree that as a group they probably are the best group of young forwards in the competition. But just because they are young doesn't mean that they are good and consistently good. Amd just because they are the best group doesn't mean that they have the best individuals. It is a big ask to throw a whole pack of young forwards into the intensity of superleague and last year they were lacking despite the promise and potential of what they may become.

Despite being a Saints fan I hope that they do achieve their potential and raise the standard in SL but I don't know how people can claim they will be up there this season based on their performance last season and the fact that they are young.

They weren’t bad by any stretch of the imagination though. The problem is that all of them are still developing, still making their way and to try and do it altogether is nigh on impossible. 
 

All of the young lads had their moments but have been let down by the coach and the management because they’ve been left totally exposed. As an example, Saints youngest forward who plays on a regular basis is Matty Lees. He’s 23 years of age and he’s played 70 first team games. How many of those 70 games have involved him playing in a 17 that includes 4 or 5 forwards younger than him? My guess is a couple at the very most. Compare him to Ollie Partington and he’s probably done that on a couple of dozen occasions. 
 

I don’t have us down to finish anywhere next season. I don’t know if we’ll finish first or last because there are a lot of unknowns but what I do know is that these young forwards have the talent to kick us on ‘if’ they’re dealt a fair hand. They have played well so far but will be able to offer far more if they’re dipped in and out of the side. Ask Havard to go hard for a couple of weeks, take him out and ask Byrne to do the same. Give Smithies a few weeks and then rest him and put Shorrocks in and so on. Get them fighting against each other for minutes. 

[dkw]

43 minutes ago, WN83 said:

Playing all the young forwards together was suicide but it doesn't take away from my belief that they're comfortably the best group of young forwards in Superleague. They've proven that at academy level over a long period of time and certainly in the cases of Havard, Smithies and Shorrocks, against the Australian academy. They've been handled horrendously by Adrian Lam these past few seasons though and hopefully that hasn't hurt them. I'm confident that will change next season and they'll get the required rest periods needed and not be flogged to death. 

Is it not a problem that many of those young forwards are basically exactly the same style of player? All are aggressive, all effort but very little else to their game (this isnt being derogatory towards them) other than Pearce-Paul.

[WN83]

4 minutes ago, dkw said:

Is it not a problem that many of those young forwards are basically exactly the same style of player? All are aggressive, all effort but very little else to their game (this isnt being derogatory towards them) other than Pearce-Paul.

I know what you mean and in time I suspect the strongest will survive. I’d guess people would put Partington, Byrne, Shorrocks and Smithies in that category. In the case of Shorrocks, I don’t think we’ve been able to see much of the other side of his game (ball playing) because it’s all had to be effort plays, as we’re on the back foot more often than not. That’s a byproduct of having so many kids in at the same time though. As a group they’re physically not ready to be dominant, so they’ve had to scrap and fight for every inch just to stick in. 
 

IMO the two who are different are Pearce Paul (as you mention) and Havard. They’re big, athletic lads and at their best will be a handful for any side. I have those two and Smithies as our best three. I think you make a great point about having too many of a similar style in your side though and Smithies has been a victim of that. I think he’ll kick on in 2022 in a big way. He’s one of those young players who doesn’t do the real flashy stuff, so unless you watch him week in, week out, it’s unlikely he’ll catch your eye. 

[dkw]

3 hours ago, WN83 said:

I know what you mean and in time I suspect the strongest will survive. I’d guess people would put Partington, Byrne, Shorrocks and Smithies in that category. In the case of Shorrocks, I don’t think we’ve been able to see much of the other side of his game (ball playing) because it’s all had to be effort plays, as we’re on the back foot more often than not. That’s a byproduct of having so many kids in at the same time though. As a group they’re physically not ready to be dominant, so they’ve had to scrap and fight for every inch just to stick in. 
 

IMO the two who are different are Pearce Paul (as you mention) and Havard. They’re big, athletic lads and at their best will be a handful for any side. I have those two and Smithies as our best three. I think you make a great point about having too many of a similar style in your side though and Smithies has been a victim of that. I think he’ll kick on in 2022 in a big way. He’s one of those young players who doesn’t do the real flashy stuff, so unless you watch him week in, week out, it’s unlikely he’ll catch your eye. 

Thats pretty mach how I see it, though I had never seen any of these players in the youth ranks so dont really know if they have more to their game and were held back by Lam, be interesting to see if they kick on now.

I thought Smithies looked a hell of a player in his first season but regressed last season and seemed more interested in cheap shots and daft stuff for some reason, maybe that was Lam`s influence also.

[GUBRATS]

5 hours ago, dkw said:

Is it not a problem that many of those young forwards are basically exactly the same style of player? All are aggressive, all effort but very little else to their game (this isnt being derogatory towards them) other than Pearce-Paul.

Correct , hence my point earlier 

[WN83]

2 hours ago, dkw said:

Thats pretty mach how I see it, though I had never seen any of these players in the youth ranks so dont really know if they have more to their game and were held back by Lam, be interesting to see if they kick on now.

I thought Smithies looked a hell of a player in his first season but regressed last season and seemed more interested in cheap shots and daft stuff for some reason, maybe that was Lam`s influence also.

Smithies big issue with losing his head/cheap shots was in 2020 (his second season in the first team) for me. He had a pretty long ban, kept getting in to scuffles and cost us in the Grand Final with his lack of discipline.

He really worked on that in 2021 and I thought he was better in that regard. We were awful last season but I actually felt Smithies went well, in between his injury problems. I thought he played his best rugby early in the season at second row but Lam is a strange bloke and has a fetish for flogging young forwards right through the middle of the field. I’ve always felt Smithies should be eased in via the second row, with the odd appearance in the middle thrown in. He’ll be a top player as he matures and the side (hopefully) improves.

As for the others, I think Shorrocks has more to him than we’ve seen so far. He can play but has rarely has the chance to. I like Partington and Byrne but see both as reasonably limited. They’ll both have superleague careers long term I think but potentially at the lower end. 
 

 

 

 

[Exiled Wiganer]

Byrne, Powell and Partington bring nothing to the table at the highest level. 
 

KPP, Smithies, Havard, O’Neill, McDonnell and Shorrocks all have enough talent to make it. Plus we still have Faz, Isa and Bateman to play in the second row. Which means that we will be relying on Singleton, Ellis and Mago to play long minutes. It could all come together, but if we find ourselves with Byrne, Powell and Partington on the field at the same time, we will be back to 2m a carry and slow ptbs. 
 

We also don’t have big wingers any more, so Peet will need to devise Peetball to be different from Waneball. 

[binosh]

Harry Smith is the worst HB in SL by a long stretch. 
 

The info I’m given is they have to many clones tied up on decent deals in the middle. Bateman, Byrne, Partington, Havard, Shorrocks, Smithies, KPP, Halsall which mean they are bargain hunting elsewhere on the pitch. 
 

Jai Field has been a failure, French is trying to get out, Hardaker wants out but is being held to his contract.

Lenegan & Rads have made a real mess 

[sweaty craiq]

That must be the cheapest and worst Wigan 17 put out since 1980. I really hope we get them in the CC at LSV.