Two leagues of ten

[Marauder]

3 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

If SL1/SL2 did happen, SL2 will not be a fully full time competition. I believe this was one of the questions that came up in discussions, The RFL are worried that there are not 20 teams that will be able to go full time and also not the player pool to make that happen without totally diluting the quality of the competition as most current part time players will stay part time unless and influx of money comes in to the game.

All that above is the main reason we won't ever go to 2 divisions of 10.

We keep getting 10 teams mentioned to a division, 18 league games is no where near enough fixtures to produce the finances to run a club.

[fighting irish]

4 minutes ago, Marauder said:

The RFL have wrestled all funding from BARLA these days - I agree BARLA don't do anything or do that little that it's not seen outside the area that the management live in. - , the RFL do nothing to promote the winter season. - BARLA are run like an old workingman's club, and they are falling by the wayside. - vision, I'm not too sure how far they can step outside the box, I may be wrong but just about everything has to be sanctioned by the RFL. - District meetings, League meetings are a thing of the past, in the past you could air any problems and get the resolved at a meeting by a vote of the clubs in attendance, now it's left to the committee or a vote by email (Who counts the email vote)- Why isn't it happening here, could that be down to red tape and control?

If the local club representatives, don't meet regularly to discuss the past and plan their futures, then things are worse than I thought. That's indicative of a moribund organisation, the polar opposite of the living, breathing vibrant game, we should have. I'm truly dismayed if what you say is true. 

[Marauder]

On 05/12/2021 at 09:19, Phil W said:

Even though I was delighted that Thunder got the chance to be in the Championship last season I was more pleased that we justified that by not being relegated.

Any Super League and Super League 2 competition should be on merit. It won't happen but to settle it the top 9 Super League teams in the top division with 10th place Super League playing off against the Championship winner. Then the lowest placed Championship side playing off against the League One winner to decide the final place in Super League 2. 

Going forward there needs to be promotion and relegation maybe bottom team down and second bottom plays off against second in the division below. That includes promotion from League One. It can all be reviewed as hopefully London rebuild and others get get stability while expansion teams like Midlands and Cornwall build. All clubs need something to play for but it has to be on merit not just selected clubs.

 It's good for all the teams from outside the heartlands to keep going, the big BUT is would they all have achieved their present status without a leg up from big brother (SL loaned players) for me it's a false economy and reflection of the game.

[Marauder]

4 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

If the local club representatives, don't meet regularly to discuss the past and plan their futures, then things are worse than I thought. That's indicative of a moribund organisation, the polar opposite of the living, breathing vibrant game, we should have. I'm truly dismayed if what you say is true. 

My thoughts and the alarm bells starting ringing 2018 season for me and my club, we backed BARLA 100% but then we started to see the cracks and the lack of anyone trying to fill the cracks, how a small majority was IMO not addressing issues, not trying to reverse the trend to go summer, not looking at ways to make the winter a more attractive competition and a competition with hope for the teams who fade after the Christmas period.

[Marauder]

On 05/12/2021 at 09:05, Griff said:

If Sheffield or Fax don't want to be in a full time competition, I'd say it's up to them to decline promotion.

Not for that decision to be made for them.

As potential goes I'd chuck my own town in there and as interest in rugby league well in front of Sheffield, Doncaster spent that many years being poor that most people would travel out of the area to watch and support teams

[fighting irish]

13 minutes ago, Marauder said:

My thoughts and the alarm bells starting ringing 2018 season for me and my club, we backed BARLA 100% but then we started to see the cracks and the lack of anyone trying to fill the cracks, how a small majority was IMO not addressing issues, not trying to reverse the trend to go summer, not looking at ways to make the winter a more attractive competition and a competition with hope for the teams who fade after the Christmas period.

I'm on the outside, so I'm guessing.

But as an observer, there seems to me, to be some irrational element to the way the game's gone in the last 20 odd years.

It's as if our ''enthusiasts'', the real backbone of the game, are withholding their support, creativity and effort.

So, if that's true, why?

Would you say, that people involved with, or committed to BARLA in the years prior, harbour some resentment about the neutering of BARLA by the RFL/Sports Council and have downed tools, as a result?

If the administration of the game is too rigid, and restrictive, it needs to be devolved to the local level, so that the real enthusiasts can get on with it like the fledgling European, African and American people are doing. 

[The Blues Ox]

5 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

If thats the case it will be the Championship under a new name and a 8/9 English team SL - which isnt enough. To work the two tens must be FT with min salary spends

Neither enough money nor enough full time players in the game to ever make it happen. Sad as it is there are simply not enough teams that can afford full time rugby wihtout an increase in funding and for those that are still part time but could afford to go full time there is simply not the player quality about to make it realistic. No disrespect but the two full time teams in the championship this year are bringing in players that are mainly the left overs that SL teams do not want. Where are the players coming from to fill 6 more teams?

[jamescolin]

What I have said many times. ONE league. Lancashire clubs play each other and Yorkshire clubs play each other then each club plays four teams of equal standing from the other . Bottom two teams demoted. Top eight play off. The League 1 to continue playing for promotion of two teams. Lets have a Yorkshire Cup and a Lancashire Cup play offs.  Teams will get support and income.

[sweaty craiq]

43 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

Neither enough money nor enough full time players in the game to ever make it happen. Sad as it is there are simply not enough teams that can afford full time rugby wihtout an increase in funding and for those that are still part time but could afford to go full time there is simply not the player quality about to make it realistic. No disrespect but the two full time teams in the championship this year are bringing in players that are mainly the left overs that SL teams do not want. Where are the players coming from to fill 6 more teams?

How many full time players where there in 1994? 

You will have about 600k per club in SL2, put in £1m min spend on player salary and it should be very easy to get a few more FT clubs

[Wellsy4HullFC]

The structure we choose needs to meet our needs.

If we want guaranteed geographic expansion whilst allowing for promotion of ambitious clubs, we may need to be creative.

X-number of clubs from each federation, with each federation choosing how they award their allocation.

To guarantee a spread, devolve Yorkshire and North West regions from the RFL, have them govern their respective areas. Those governing bodies are then tasked with growing the game in those regions (the RFL to govern the remaining English regions and national side); the stronger they get and the bigger their clubs get, the bigger case they have for expanding their allocation.

You then allocate a number of clubs to each federation based on their strength (a bit like the Champions' League) and whatever specific regions you're wanting to target. For 14 teams, something like:

5 YRL

5 NWRL

2 FFR13

2 RFL/WRL

You guarantee your spread whilst still providing opportunity to clubs not in the system. How you provide opportunity to them is up to the federation (Yorkshire might do direct P&R of lowest and highest side, NW might do a playoff between lowest and highest, French might do licenses, etc.)

[Rugbyleaguesupporter]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

We keep getting 10 teams mentioned to a division, 18 league games is no where near enough fixtures to produce the finances to run a club.

They would surely do 27 fixtures 

9x3 so 13H, 13A plus magic/ bash 

[dboy]

59 minutes ago, jamescolin said:

What I have said many times. ONE league. Lancashire clubs play each other and Yorkshire clubs play each other then each club plays four teams of equal standing from the other . Bottom two teams demoted. Top eight play off. The League 1 to continue playing for promotion of two teams. Lets have a Yorkshire Cup and a Lancashire Cup play offs.  Teams will get support and income.

If you have "said it many times", and no-one has taken any notice...maybe it's a hint to stop saying it?

[M j M]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

We keep getting 10 teams mentioned to a division, 18 league games is no where near enough fixtures to produce the finances to run a club.

We'll be looping the loop and defying the ground.

Just what nobody wants.

[dboy]

7 minutes ago, Rugbyleaguesupporter said:

They would surely do 27 fixtures 

9x3 so 13H, 13A plus magic/ bash 

So 9 loop fixtures?

Yeah - that could be popular...

[idrewthehaggis]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

We keep getting 10 teams mentioned to a division, 18 league games is no where near enough fixtures to produce the finances to run a club.

The thrilling and energetic assumption is round robin three times equating to 27 games, plus Magic Weekend/Week-end Magique.

Or round robin twice, Magic and Group stages in the early parts of the Challenge Cup.

Honestly outside SL who intends to be full time-Leigh, Fev and who?

[Phil W]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

 It's good for all the teams from outside the heartlands to keep going, the big BUT is would they all have achieved their present status without a leg up from big brother (SL loaned players) for me it's a false economy and reflection of the game.

I get that but players coming through takes a while. Take Newcastle going full time, for the academy players being around that environment can only be a good thing for the wider game. We start seeing north east talent in Super League. 

For what it's worth as much as i'm a big fan of teams from outside the heartlands because I feel the game needs this to grow. I also see the value of traditional teams and if Featherstone for example made it to Super League I have no doubt the community would get behind them and every Super League game would be a big occasion which then creates more interest. 

[The Blues Ox]

1 hour ago, sweaty craiq said:

How many full time players where there in 1994? 

You will have about 600k per club in SL2, put in £1m min spend on player salary and it should be very easy to get a few more FT clubs

Where is the money coming from? If its so easy then why are there not more full time clubs?

Regarding full time players in 1994, in the last 27 years participation numbers have dropped off massively and have been declining for a number of years. Its simply not possible to suddenly come up with 120+ full time players out of thin air with the lack of finance in the game.

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, Phil W said:

I get that but players coming through takes a while. Take Newcastle going full time, for the academy players being around that environment can only be a good thing for the wider game. We start seeing north east talent in Super League. 

For what it's worth as much as i'm a big fan of teams from outside the heartlands because I feel the game needs this to grow. I also see the value of traditional teams and if Featherstone for example made it to Super League I have no doubt the community would get behind them and every Super League game would be a big occasion which then creates more interest. 

Newcastle is a good example of how it needs to be done, but let's not forget, a thriving amateur scene was in place before it was adopted, hats off to Newcastle for their hindsight and additional aid given since picking up the baton.

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, idrewthehaggis said:

The thrilling and energetic assumption is round robin three times equating to 27 games, plus Magic Weekend/Week-end Magique.

Or round robin twice, Magic and Group stages in the early parts of the Challenge Cup.

Honestly outside SL who intends to be full time-Leigh, Fev and who?

Imo a system with round robin games doesn't reflect on true league placings 

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, Rugbyleaguesupporter said:

They would surely do 27 fixtures 

9x3 so 13H, 13A plus magic/ bash 

So a lottery could determine who gets relegated

[sweaty craiq]

11 hours ago, Marauder said:

So a lottery could determine who gets relegated

Like this season you mean?  When not only did the promoted club play 1st and 3rd from the previous season as the 'extra' fixtures behind closed doors but results were all over the place dependent on clubs playing weakened teams or not eg Cas conceding 70 at home v Salford.

To stop the 'lucky' team who got to play a weakened better team at the right time, or the team with a really bad injury streak winning or losing the relegation lottery, or even who got the easier Magic fixture let alone the 6 extra - then the bottom 4 play offs were the best solution, dont you think?

[RP London]

45 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Like this season you mean?  When not only did the promoted club play 1st and 3rd from the previous season as the 'extra' fixtures behind closed doors but results were all over the place dependent on clubs playing weakened teams or not eg Cas conceding 70 at home v Salford.

To stop the 'lucky' team who got to play a weakened better team at the right time, or the team with a really bad injury streak winning or losing the relegation lottery, or even who got the easier Magic fixture let alone the 6 extra - then the bottom 4 play offs were the best solution, dont you think?

But then surely  you could have an injury crisis just in time for the play offs and go down.. yet you may have been 10 points clear of the bottom team (or more)... etc etc..

The league is a lottery.. as so many things can change. but it is the club that wins or loses, you need strength in depth, you need good club mentalities across the club from top to bottom to support the team through good and bad. You need good medical staff and importantly facilities. It is no coincidence (yet it is also a self fulfilling prophecy in part) that the good CLUBS are 90% of the time at the top and the not so good are lower down (across all facets).. 

But its a lottery... the bigger clubs just buy more tickets thats all really.. 

and there is very very little you can do about that fact.. 

[M j M]

When the league is less clear-cut than it was this year there is some validity in the relegation question. But we're never going to get rid of Magic Weekend given the finances involved so we'll just have to live with the discrepancy - unless they wanted to go for a bottom two play off maybe but that's not that appealing.

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

Like this season you mean?  When not only did the promoted club play 1st and 3rd from the previous season as the 'extra' fixtures behind closed doors but results were all over the place dependent on clubs playing weakened teams or not eg Cas conceding 70 at home v Salford.

To stop the 'lucky' team who got to play a weakened better team at the right time, or the team with a really bad injury streak winning or losing the relegation lottery, or even who got the easier Magic fixture let alone the 6 extra - then the bottom 4 play offs were the best solution, dont you think?

I'm for the tried and tested home and away fixtures, bottom 1 or 2 down, top of the tree as champions, if a stocking filling type play off is required to produce a champion/finance so be it.

[jamescolin]

17 hours ago, dboy said:

If you have "said it many times", and no-one has taken any notice...maybe it's a hint to stop saying it?

Perhaps ,they are all DB's . Cirumstances have changed over the years both in structure and finance. It is not wrong to put an opinion that is adverse to two leagues of ten. Perhaps you have an idea that is worth thinking about? I go back a long way and can remember there being one league. It worked and made RL one organisation without disruption for the most part .In all circujmstances you get somebody with authority who will always look to see what is in it for them. We will no doubt be given an answer that puts money in the pockets of those in power. Nothing changes.