Ref abuse

[unapologetic pedant]

2 hours ago, redjonn said:

So they agree it was a penalty (all-be-it they say soft penalty) but as if the stage of the game should determine the decision.

RL refs are generally reluctant to make active decisive calls at the end of tight games. Technically it makes no sense, since everything that happened in the previous 79 minutes was no less significant. But it`s human nature and I would argue perfectly consistent with an intelligent application of the rules. 

RU refs never seem to have such qualms. 

In Soccer, when a player is fouled but also makes sure the ref knows it, someone like Alan Shearer will say "There`s contact - he`s entitled to go down". Morally, I`m never quite certain how to interpret that sentiment.

[David Dockhouse Host]

5 hours ago, redjonn said:

One of the quotes says:  "Tough losing to a penalty goal in the last seconds of the match, which in our opinion was a very soft penalty at that stage of the game."

So they agree it was a penalty (all-be-it they say soft penalty) but as if the stage of the game should determine the decision.

Like the ref has to decide not only if its a penalty but whether the stage of the game determines whether he gives it.... oh its a close game near the end so best not give that penalty... even though its a penalty...

 

I thought the same, is it a penalty in the first 70 minutes but not in the last 10? I must have missed that rule

[David Dockhouse Host]

9 hours ago, dkw said:

Its always wound me up that, players and coaches moaning about a ref missing something when they spend the entire match trying to con the ref. 

Argh, but that's gamesmanship 

If it's the other team they are cheats.

If it's the ref he's a xxxxxxx

 

 

[Bondi Cannon]

I've watched it a couple of times and its a definite penalty. No idea who that ref is but good on him for making a strong decision at a crucial time.

Second observation, having watched the five minutes before, is the amount of ###### he's copping from the sideline etc. I grew up refereeing in atmospheres like that and it was very tough and a lot of refs gave it away fairly early in their careers. It can be very lonely/threatening. Then you move up to levels where its more pleasant. But cumulatively, it does remind me why I gave up refereeing here in NZ five years ago. I don't miss any of the accompanying rubbish that comes with it.

[RP London]

15 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

I thought the same, is it a penalty in the first 70 minutes but not in the last 10? I must have missed that rule

For me its the same in football with the, outside the area its a foul but is it really a penalty? well yes because if its a foul its a foul, its just that if you do it there you get a penalty for it.. and you all knew that rule when you went on the pitch. 

For me in this it was a penalty, swinging, lazy outstretched arm that got him late and potentially high.. he made the most of it.. soft penalty maybe but a penalty none the less.. However, if Ackworth want to blame anybody they should blame their player who went and screamed at the ref and got it moved 10 metres closer.. That would have been a tough kick (gettable but tough) in the conditions and the pressure, but it became relatively straight forward.

The ref could have blown for a few things IMO in the last 5 minutes but kept the game flowing well.. fans were fans calling for things that werent there but he kept a good head i think and fair play to him for doing that.

[RP London]

As an aside i was on an RFU refs mini course last night, which was fantastic and opened my eyes to what they were looking at which can only help coaching the kids. It was only a 3 hour skirt over the main areas of the game with a follow up of 1 1/2 of videos about the rest. To give a little confidence if we need to ref a game but also we were all age group coaches so helps understand what they were looking for. That was our major take away and I do think it would help most players to actually sit (and go out on a mock game/pitch) in pre season for a couple of hours with the refs to understand what they are looking for etc. 

But the key take away we had from this ref (national league ref and refs the womens premiership as well as being an RFU ref coach) was to ref in a "materialistic way"... does, what is happening, affect materially what is going to happen. Therefore you let things go that dont change what is going to happen anyway (unless it is serious foul play). If you are the only attacked in the Ruck and you put your hands on the floor its technically closing off, but if there is no defender anywhere near does it really matter, no so play on... Hands in the ruck when you have clearly won it and its just going to be scrappy if you make them get it out with their feet.. play on.. It was really interesting and the RU supporters seem to generally agree.. 

For me that ref did very well in that, but that play materially changed whether he would have regathered that ball or not and you cannot let that go. If he had overcooked it and there was no chance he could have regathered I may argue you could have let it go as it was a bit soft, but he could have got there without being obstructed.. 

[dkw]

20 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

RL refs are generally reluctant to make active decisive calls at the end of tight games.

Thats simply is not true, at all. I've seen many, many decisions given at the end of tight games, no idea where you got that from.

[Wakefield Ram]

I've reffed RU mostly junior but some senior for 15 years and am packing in reffing club matches and will just do schools colleges from now on. The reason? Just the relentless whining from most coaches (they might be better off doing some coaching), increasing backchat from players and a minority of spectators, none of them have reffed a game in their life.

The last game I reffed wasnt a close result, the losing coach just walked off (thanks for the disrespect) the winning coach came over banging on about a marginal offside I hadn't given. He was right the player was marginally offside but not near any action. To be "consistent" that would have meant another 20-30 penalties. But one decision in 80 minutes and that was all he could talk about. I had to chase round after the game to get £10 expenses.

For the low level I ref at, I am a decent referee, but at least in schools/colleges the teachers behave themselves (mostly) and the students don't backchat.

If my son asked me about becoming a referee, I'd tell him not to do it. 

[unapologetic pedant]

22 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

RL refs are generally reluctant to make active decisive calls at the end of tight games. 

 

1 hour ago, dkw said:

 I've seen many, many decisions given at the end of tight games

These two statements are not mutually exclusive.

[dkw]

1 hour ago, unapologetic pedant said:

 

These two statements are not mutually exclusive.

If they're "generally reluctant " I'm sure you will be able to prove this quite easily.

[Marauder]

On 12/12/2021 at 22:21, Ralgex said:

Is this acceptable? 
 

Reports on social media of the referee being physically threatened after the game, which is clearly unacceptable. 
 

Will the RFL or BARLA take action against Ackworth Jaguars for this???

I can see where your coming from, but I can also see the frustration from the crowd, as a neutral the decisions seemed to go the one way all afternoon - Toll Bar looked the more attractive side in short spells and Ackworth ground it down the middle all the game and didn't seem to get any of the 50/50 calls during the game, including a couple of disallowed tries and shouldn't the kicked ball by Ackworth from a Toll Bar knock on have been brought back and given to Ackworth because they gained no advantage? 

[Marauder]

16 hours ago, Bondi Cannon said:

I've watched it a couple of times and its a definite penalty. No idea who that ref is but good on him for making a strong decision at a crucial time.

Second observation, having watched the five minutes before, is the amount of ###### he's copping from the sideline etc. I grew up refereeing in atmospheres like that and it was very tough and a lot of refs gave it away fairly early in their careers. It can be very lonely/threatening. Then you move up to levels where its more pleasant. But cumulatively, it does remind me why I gave up refereeing here in NZ five years ago. I don't miss any of the accompanying rubbish that comes with it.

Flack from the side line, that's the Toll Bar crowd LOL

[Phil]

12 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I can see where your coming from, but I can also see the frustration from the crowd, as a neutral the decisions seemed to go the one way all afternoon - Toll Bar looked the more attractive side in short spells and Ackworth ground it down the middle all the game and didn't seem to get any of the 50/50 calls during the game, including a couple of disallowed tries and shouldn't the kicked ball by Ackworth from a Toll Bar knock on have been brought back and given to Ackworth because they gained no advantage? 

There’s nothing that states decisions should be 50/50. I’ve reffed games where the penalty count has been massively in favour of one side, the team(s) conceding need to get their game together and stop giving away penalties 

[Archie Gordon]

24 minutes ago, Marauder said:

... and shouldn't the kicked ball by Ackworth from a Toll Bar knock on have been brought back and given to Ackworth because they gained no advantage? 

I've watched this a few times and the ball clearly comes out backwards from the Toll Bar player. The outrage on the sideline that followed was therefore (a) misplaced and (b) contributed to the greater outrage at the subsequent penalty. 

Still, most of the angry dudes on the sideline knew how to signal knock-on so perhaps they'll take up reffing. I hope so.

[Ralgex]

45 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I can see where your coming from, but I can also see the frustration from the crowd, as a neutral the decisions seemed to go the one way all afternoon - Toll Bar looked the more attractive side in short spells and Ackworth ground it down the middle all the game and didn't seem to get any of the 50/50 calls during the game, including a couple of disallowed tries and shouldn't the kicked ball by Ackworth from a Toll Bar knock on have been brought back and given to Ackworth because they gained no advantage? 

When does this happen? 
 

Sounds a lot like you think we still do ‘free plays’. That changed a while back, I think. My guess is that the kick was deemed advantage taken, but I’ve not watched it yet so happy to be proven wrong. 

[RP London]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

I can see where your coming from, but I can also see the frustration from the crowd, as a neutral the decisions seemed to go the one way all afternoon - Toll Bar looked the more attractive side in short spells and Ackworth ground it down the middle all the game and didn't seem to get any of the 50/50 calls during the game, including a couple of disallowed tries and shouldn't the kicked ball by Ackworth from a Toll Bar knock on have been brought back and given to Ackworth because they gained no advantage? 

While I understand where you are coming from (don't 100% agree but understand where you are coming from).. that is the reaction of the crowd.. what we see here is the actual club taking that on and running with it. I'm not saying a partizan crowd can't get annoyed but a club has to be above that and not call the ref out, therefore giving credence to the crowd then weighing in.. 

It is the clubs responsibility to keep the ref safe on the day, so away from neanderthals abusing them for making a fair call. Then afterwards they should so the same by not calling them out on social media. A soft penalty it maybe but its still a penalty and it was made worse by your own player.. what's the ref supposed to do ignore it? 

[Impartial Observer]

4 hours ago, dkw said:

If they're "generally reluctant " I'm sure you will be able to prove this quite easily.

Chris joynts voluntary tackle at the GF

[Phil]

30 minutes ago, Impartial Observer said:

Chris joynts voluntary tackle at the GF

There’d been no penalties for voluntary tackles for many a year and then players and fans of one particular club think there should be one with seconds left on the clock, no way!!! 

[Marauder]

15 hours ago, Phil said:

There’s nothing that states decisions should be 50/50. I’ve reffed games where the penalty count has been massively in favour of one side, the team(s) conceding need to get their game together and stop giving away penalties 

No one said penalties should go 50/50 but you'd expect if one team constantly gets penalised for certain offences then you'd expect both teams in the game to get penalised for the same offences.

[Marauder]

12 hours ago, RP London said:

While I understand where you are coming from (don't 100% agree but understand where you are coming from).. that is the reaction of the crowd.. what we see here is the actual club taking that on and running with it. I'm not saying a partizan crowd can't get annoyed but a club has to be above that and not call the ref out, therefore giving credence to the crowd then weighing in.. 

It is the clubs responsibility to keep the ref safe on the day, so away from neanderthals abusing them for making a fair call. Then afterwards they should so the same by not calling them out on social media. A soft penalty it maybe but its still a penalty and it was made worse by your own player.. what's the ref supposed to do ignore it? 

If I'm reading this right, I'd best point out I have nothing to do with Ackworth except playing against them in the past (20 years ago) and never have had anything to do with them, I've watched them a couple of times this season as my choice of game to watch.

How do we know that the person who has posted is actually a player/official of the Ackworth club? 

[BridBeachRL]

I know a higher standard but not off topic when I was watching York home and away pre Covid. I made a commitment to not swear at all or complain at the referee if I did I was happy to be picked up on it and if it happened I would donate £1 per incident to the oppositions club foundation. Being the tight Yorkshireman I am I didn't have any occurances but for me on a personal level I actually enjoyed the games even more, if there was a penalty given against it was then about encouraging the defence/attack depending on the situation to get the performance levels needed. 

[Marauder]

15 hours ago, Ralgex said:

When does this happen? 
 

Sounds a lot like you think we still do ‘free plays’. That changed a while back, I think. My guess is that the kick was deemed advantage taken, but I’ve not watched it yet so happy to be proven wrong. 

I was asking to clarify the situation (Toll Bar knock on) just before the set of six that resulted in the penalty, two other decisions I could do with clarifying, When the kicker is taken out do we take the penalty where the ball landed or where the kicker was fouled and can player/players drop off of the tackle to allow the ball to be stolen?

[unapologetic pedant]

18 hours ago, dkw said:

If they're "generally reluctant " I'm sure you will be able to prove this quite easily.

Empirically, my view that RL refs at all levels are "generally reluctant" to decide the result of a game with an active last-minute call is based on observation of thousands of games. Especially relevant is hearing their ruck guidance toward the end of a tight game when they`re mic`d up.

In addition, there`s the intuitive assumption that they don`t want to attract controversy and acrimony if they can avoid it. Of course "it takes all sorts", and there may be exceptions.

The incident that prompted this thread is a good example. I reiterate my earlier judgement that 9 times out of 10 a penalty would have been called - wherever it happened on the field and at whatever stage of the game. Hence, the unconventional call would have been passive - to wave play on.

If we were able to examine each of the late calls you cite as having seen, I suspect the same conclusion would apply in the vast majority of cases i.e. something occurred which forced the ref to make a call one way or the other, and logic and precedent determined that call should be active.

[tim2]

If you think this is bad, go to a typical disciplinary meeting, especially for junior leagues, and marvel at the range of charges being contested. Surprisingly often, the club official who is responsible for taking care of the ref is the one in the dock.

[RP London]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

If I'm reading this right, I'd best point out I have nothing to do with Ackworth except playing against them in the past (20 years ago) and never have had anything to do with them, I've watched them a couple of times this season as my choice of game to watch.

How do we know that the person who has posted is actually a player/official of the Ackworth club? 

I know you arent anything to do with Ackworth, known you long enough on here. What i was trying to say was Its different if a fan questions the decision but the club has a duty of care towards the ref. Safety on the pitch (so anyone invading should be dealt with, anyone abusing the ref should be dealt with etc) but also off the pitch after the game etc. 

I would have sympathy with your stance if, as you said, it was an individual who had done it but, in answer to your last question, the original tweet that was quoted in the original post is from the clubs twitter feed, its the clubs saying it was a terrible call etc. and for that they should get hauled over the coals..