The Phantom Horseman Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 21 minutes ago, dkw said: You're wrong, it does, I've seen it. Have you though? Or is this just another case of a fan who wants to blame his own team's shortcomings on DR? The reason I ask is that I checked the teams for the games you mentioned involving NW Crusaders. When Workington "got demolished" by "a massive side with pace and power .... on the back of the inclusion of several players from Bradford" I could only find one Bradford player (Matty Race, a smallish young half back). Apart from Race and one change on the wing, Crusaders fielded the same team when they were comfortably beaten by Keighley two weeks later. So are the teams listed on the RFL website wrong, or is this another case of a fan massively exaggerating the impact of DR to excuse his own team's performance, or detract from an opponents' performance? This is actually one of the main reasons I would like DR to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbaldnmad Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said: So Fev will be better not utilising Leeds personnel this coming season? So Leigh will not be using any Saint's players this season? Fev have a squad of 25 players, without any Leeds DR/Loans. Leigh have just 20 players, one of which is a Saint's player on loan. Which team appear to be relying on DR? As has been said, no-one really likes DR, but if one use it, all will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Horseman Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 1 minute ago, bigbaldnmad said: So Leigh will not be using any Saint's players this season? Fev have a squad of 25 players, without any Leeds DR/Loans. Leigh have just 20 players, one of which is a Saint's player on loan. Which team appear to be relying on DR? As has been said, no-one really likes DR, but if one use it, all will. To be fair to Harry, he's made it very clear he's opposed to his own team using DR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbaldnmad Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 9 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said: To be fair to Harry, he's made it very clear he's opposed to his own team using DR. As have most Fev / Leigh fans on this thread. All I am pointing out, is that Fev have a squad, a similar size to the rest of the league, and do not necessarily need to rely on DR, of course we all know it will be used, irrespective of whether we like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 1 hour ago, The Phantom Horseman said: Have you though? Or is this just another case of a fan who wants to blame his own team's shortcomings on DR? The reason I ask is that I checked the teams for the games you mentioned involving NW Crusaders. When Workington "got demolished" by "a massive side with pace and power .... on the back of the inclusion of several players from Bradford" I could only find one Bradford player (Matty Race, a smallish young half back). Apart from Race and one change on the wing, Crusaders fielded the same team when they were comfortably beaten by Keighley two weeks later. So are the teams listed on the RFL website wrong, or is this another case of a fan massively exaggerating the impact of DR to excuse his own team's performance, or detract from an opponents' performance? This is actually one of the main reasons I would like DR to go! Its nothing to do with that game, if anything it was more showing empathy with crusaders as they lost players in the play offs which ruined them. I saw it when my own team DR'd with Wigan and other clubs. Wigan coaches used sending players to us as a punishment, and often you could tell. Now not every player was poor, some were really professional and very good, but as a team those seasons we were incredibly disjointed, unable to get any semblance of form, and as fans we had no idea who was going to play for us, how strong/weak our squad would be, how strong/weak the opposition would be, the league positions and club form was all over the place. It was farcical, it will be farcical this season and will continue to be farcical if its kept as it is. One other thing on squads, it allows some teams to carry a much smaller squad, meaning they can offer higher wages to enable them to sign better players, knowing they can the supplement it with largely excellent players from their super league parent, it's a win win for those clubs, until its not, and the parent club pulls the rug, and there's absolutely nothing they can do about it. I hate DR, I hate the entire concept as its a cop out by the rfl to actually build a proper reserve league structure. Just to say, I meant the Keighley play off game where Crusaders lost players and it showed, not the league game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Horseman Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 15 minutes ago, dkw said: Just to say, I meant the Keighley play off game where Crusaders lost players and it showed, not the league game. Which DR players did they lose from the league game to the play-off game?I don't think they played any DR players in the league game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimmestStar Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 On 05/01/2022 at 20:16, Josef K said: When Fev go up at the end of the 2022 season will they be able to have a dual reg with Leeds in 2023 ?. Yes if Leeds are relegated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 1 hour ago, The Phantom Horseman said: Which DR players did they lose from the league game to the play-off game?I don't think they played any DR players in the league game? Loan players, I can't remember who but I do remember crusaders fans being pessimistic for the game after players returned to their parent club(s). I think you've misunderstood me here, I have absolutely no problem at all with that defeat for Town, Crusaders had a squad within the rules and fully deserved the win, it was what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fevrover Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 York have decided not to DR with Castleford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbaldnmad Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 21 minutes ago, Fevrover said: York have decided not to DR with Castleford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardypaul Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 Don’t worry I’m sure someone else will!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweaty craiq Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 7 hours ago, bigbaldnmad said: So Leigh will not be using any Saint's players this season? Fev have a squad of 25 players, without any Leeds DR/Loans. Leigh have just 20 players, one of which is a Saint's player on loan. Which team appear to be relying on DR? As has been said, no-one really likes DR, but if one use it, all will. Leigh will be using probably 3 players a week early season from Saints, and they will be first team regulars as it will suit both parties. Leigh have got a very good 20 squad, with 3/4 more promised in next couple of weeks - probably from overseas as getting FT players in the Championship who are capable of being a SL player in 2023 is a tough ask, but expect some to become available as the season progresses and they are not offered contracts for the following season. Its SL or bust unless 2 x 10 appears again, for a few clubs these next 2 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adelaide Tiger Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 I am interested in the argument that the leading clubs in the Championship could use DR putting those ‘less well off’ clubs at a disadvantage. What is the monetary cost of a Championship team using a DR player? Does the Championship team pay for the privilege of using a player or is the agreement just to give that player game time? If there is a monetary cost then obviously the more well off clubs can take advantage of the rules but unfortunately that is life. But if there is no monetary cost then why are clubs in the lower reaches of the Championship at a disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kevin Sinfield Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 10 hours ago, Fevrover said: York have decided not to DR with Castleford. We have 10 British Super League clubs but 14 British Championship clubs. At least 4 clubs are going to be missing out on using Super League dual registration players. It’s very much not a level playing field in the Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 16 hours ago, bigbaldnmad said: So Leigh will not be using any Saint's players this season? Fev have a squad of 25 players, without any Leeds DR/Loans. Leigh have just 20 players, one of which is a Saint's player on loan. Which team appear to be relying on DR? As has been said, no-one really likes DR, but if one use it, all will. Have a look back on my comments on DR, you are trying to make out that me being a Leigh fan I am condoning the use of it which is far from the case. A big gripe of mine is the seemingly reliant use of DR that Leigh will be utilising having only 20 player's signed on is totally irresponsible of the club, a couple of injuries or suspensions and we are goosed. If DR didn't exist, player's would have to be signed, if this season turns out to be a flop because of lack of personal then Beaumont and co will have a lot to answer for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 9 hours ago, sweaty craiq said: Leigh will be using probably 3 players a week early season from Saints, and they will be first team regulars as it will suit both parties. Leigh have got a very good 20 squad, with 3/4 more promised in next couple of weeks - probably from overseas as getting FT players in the Championship who are capable of being a SL player in 2023 is a tough ask, but expect some to become available as the season progresses and they are not offered contracts for the following season. Its SL or bust unless 2 x 10 appears again, for a few clubs these next 2 years Will you stop trying to condone the apathy the club has shown in signing player's on and bringing the squad numbers up to something managable, you say 3/4 new signings have been promised in the next couple of weeks, it may have passed you by but we are 3 weeks today away from the first game, great preparation that isn't it for the coach, and if said player's are going to be good enough to command a first team spot along with the 3 guests from Saints who will have been training with Saints there will be plenty of first time introductions in the changing rooms on game day won't there. What is it they say about Piff poor preparation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 11 hours ago, Cardypaul said: Don’t worry I’m sure someone else will!!! And that's the problem, as happy as I am that York aren't doing it, that means York are now going to be handicapped against the other teams they are competing against unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blues Ox Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 10 hours ago, sweaty craiq said: Leigh will be using probably 3 players a week early season from Saints, and they will be first team regulars as it will suit both parties. I can't help but think you are going to be disappointed. "But this DR arrangement is different". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 6 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said: I am interested in the argument that the leading clubs in the Championship could use DR putting those ‘less well off’ clubs at a disadvantage. What is the monetary cost of a Championship team using a DR player? Does the Championship team pay for the privilege of using a player or is the agreement just to give that player game time? If there is a monetary cost then obviously the more well off clubs can take advantage of the rules but unfortunately that is life. But if there is no monetary cost then why are clubs in the lower reaches of the Championship at a disadvantage. I think the club getting players do pay a fee, and it goes against the cap. But I also think its a lot less than having a contracted player. If a club goes DR to fill their squad then they should then be able to pay their own players more out of their budget, so basically they can outbid others to get players. Say leigh have 20 contracted players, then go DR to infill the squad. But Fev have 28 contracted players and no DR. They both have a similar budget and the same cap, so proportionally Leigh can pay their 20 contracted players more than Fev can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said: Have a look back on my comments on DR, you are trying to make out that me being a Leigh fan I am condoning the use of it which is far from the case. A big gripe of mine is the seemingly reliant use of DR that Leigh will be utilising having only 20 player's signed on is totally irresponsible of the club, a couple of injuries or suspensions and we are goosed. If DR didn't exist, player's would have to be signed, if this season turns out to be a flop because of lack of personal then Beaumont and co will have a lot to answer for. It works the other way too with injuries, if Saints have a big injury list or covid hit then you will struggle to get DR players at Leigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 1 minute ago, The Blues Ox said: I can't help but think you are going to be disappointed. "But this DR arrangement is different". I guarantee he will, it will be exactly the same as all DR where the child club is entirely relient on the whim of the parent club and their plan for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 5 minutes ago, dkw said: It works the other way too with injuries, if Saints have a big injury list or covid hit then you will struggle to get DR players at Leigh. Totally agree, that is why I am stating that it is a very dangerous strategy that Leigh are employing. And I still maintain that a club who utilises DR and has a player or player's suspended should not be able to cover them with DR 'guests' for the term of the suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Totally agree, that is why I am stating that it is a very dangerous strategy that Leigh are employing. And I still maintain that a club who utilises DR and has a player or player's suspended should not be able to cover them with DR 'guests' for the term of the suspension. That's a good point about suspension, being able to bring in a DR player who more than likely will be better than the suspended player negates the penalty basically. Maybe a way round this is to have a named group of DR available players, and a planned block of games they are available for before the season starts. Whatever is done, some regulations and restrictions are desperately needed for DR and Loans to get some control on the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 From a Leeds point of view, the DR, Loan and Reserves partnerships mean we have a massive range of options for player development this season. Agar has detailed this further in a recent interview. Essentially he seems to view reserves as an extension of the academy. Their purpose is to develop players further within the Leeds Rhinos set up before playing first grade anywhere. He also paid specific attention to halves in this set up, Jack Sinfield was the example he gave. By contrast, Loans and DR are for fringe first teamers to keep match fit at a higher level than reserves and it appears will most likely be for players who aren't pivots and whose roles won't change dramatically between 2 teams. I think long term loans should be the only form of loans available, either full or half season. That way a player doesn't see playing for a Championship club one week as simply an opportunity to step up to the Super League team the following week. It breeds a disrespectful attitude that I don't like and fuels an "us and them". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 DR is borne out of the reality that most if not all Championship clubs cannot afford a full squad of professional Rugby League players, yet several want that. Leigh are fully pro but as has been highlighted above have 20 players including a loanee. Fev aren't fully professional. After that the level, "hybrid" pro/semi-pro players within a squad can drop dramatically. I don't blame any club for wanting the best squad, it is the best way to get into Super League and stay. But I do wonder if DR wasn't a Super League idea forced onto the Championship but rather a financial reality from the Championship who then presented an opportunity to Super League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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