Super League B Teams

[Harry Stottle]

19 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Just had an idea pop into my head then, about Dual Registration. What do the forum members think about it being run on a draft system?

SL clubs offer players up for the draft (early to mid-week, say) and starting with the lowest team in the (championship) league, the championship club can pick (say 3 players) from the draft then it becomes the turn of the next lowest placed team, to choose and so on.

This would give struggling teams the advantage of the pick of the crop, no doubt leveling up (and increasing) the standard of the competition. This would make the final outcome of the competition far less predictable week on week and certainly at the seasons start. 

The number of picks each club gets, might need to be adjusted each week, once the draft was compiled, depending on how many players were drafted. If 36 players were drafted it could be 3 picks each, if 24 then 2 picks each, etc.

I've not given it a great deal of thought yet (that might be obvious) so I just wondered what the group thinks of the idea? 

I to thought of this, but then I got thinking about what if I was a player at one of these club's who accepted the DR's, how would I take it the coach advised me after never missing training that I would be sitting on my brown one instead of playing because a guest was taking my place, my answer would be "shove your club, transfer request"

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, bobbruce said:

What’s being talked about here is not a third team. It’s effectively reserves joining the pro leagues. I think even this has massive issues but it’s an improvement on running reserves. 

Not if the reserves were run as they should be Bob, not in the way @Tommygilfadvised how it was the intention of Agar to utilise it.

[bobbruce]

8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Not if the reserves were run as they should be Bob, not in the way @Tommygilfadvised how it was the intention of Agar to utilise it.

It doesn’t really matter what SL clubs do unless they all spend at least £1m on reserve team wages. Otherwise it will be a much lower standard than the championship. Now that will be fine for some players but for the development of others that higher standard would give them the best chance of reaching their potential. As I’ve said there are issue with all these options what we definitely need though is a whole game solution to player development so this has to suit everyone or at least be enough benefit in it for all parties for them to buy into it. 

[Jughead]

19 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Just had an idea pop into my head then, about Dual Registration. What do the forum members think about it being run on a draft system?

SL clubs offer players up for the draft (early to mid-week, say) and starting with the lowest team in the (championship) league, the championship club can pick (say 3 players) from the draft then it becomes the turn of the next lowest placed team, to choose and so on.

This would give struggling teams the advantage of the pick of the crop, no doubt leveling up (and increasing) the standard of the competition. This would make the final outcome of the competition far less predictable week on week and certainly at the seasons start. 

The number of picks each club gets, might need to be adjusted each week, once the draft was compiled, depending on how many players were drafted. If 36 players were drafted it could be 3 picks each, if 24 then 2 picks each, etc.

I've not given it a great deal of thought yet (that might be obvious) so I just wondered what the group thinks of the idea? 

I’ve no idea why we’d do this, in all honesty. 

Super League players play for a weak team stifling their development, there’s less incentive to win for lower league clubs and it’s open to abuse, still. 

 

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, headtackle said:

As a Cornwall fan or marketing manager for example promoting a game against Saints, Wigan or Leeds etc would help capture the imagination and a win against those teams would generate local interest 

I think there's a lot in this as well. There's a kudos to playing the big teams even when it's just their academy and fringe players turning out.

Conversely, just think how motivating it would be for players located well outside the heartlands to be able to put themselves in the shop window by playing against those same academy and fringe players.

Have to say, in spite of myself, I'd not object at all if something like this happened.

[bobbruce]

15 hours ago, del capo said:

It's up to SL to make it good enough.

All SL players including their Academy  are contracted professionals. Leeds for instance have at least 60. No room nor need  for amateurs.

By all means kill League 1 if you must with this crazy idea.

Then move to the Championship. St Helens Reserves v Whitehaven bound to pack them in before you even have to justify Leigh v Wigan B !  That will go down well with the lobbygobblers.

Ultimate lack of enthusiasm  everywhere where it counts on the terraces..........

 Fast forward and TGG implodes within  a couple of years and SL do a deal with the Dark Side as a  derivative of their main event....

I'd much rather throw a lifeline to Tier 3 and link it to a reasonably healthy Tier 4 but hey ho what do I know.....

The money isn’t there unless reserves are spending the same money as championship clubs it will obviously be a lower standard. 
 

my understanding is a hand full of amateurs are being picked up for a few quid a week to fill out squads. So technically you could say they are professionals. 
 

stop being a drama queen no one wants to kill league 1 this is just a discussion on the way forward. 
 

Whatever the crowds are they would certainly be more than reserves v reserves would get. 
 

So now we are all going to RU 

If you are talking national conference league. I think that if almost certainly a better standard than the bottom of league 1. In fact I don’t think I could think of a better way of killing off development clubs than them getting relegated into NCL prem with a good chance they would go down again from that division. 

[fighting irish]

57 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I to thought of this, but then I got thinking about what if I was a player at one of these club's who accepted the DR's, how would I take it the coach advised me after never missing training that I would be sitting on my brown one instead of playing because a guest was taking my place, my answer would be "shove your club, transfer request"

Yes it would be upsetting wouldn't it. Surely though Harry, isn't that happening already, with the existing DR arrangements? Being stood down for a better player (in the coach's opinion) is an occupational hazard for all players anyway.

I just thought, if you are going to allow/tolerate DR deals at all, it would be more palatable if everyone got an opportunity to get at the available talent (especially the most needy) .

FEV benefitting from Leeds could (potentially) give them a huge advantage over the other clubs which (in the context of the RFL being a member-clubs club) must be hugely divisive.  

[Damien]

52 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

It doesn’t really matter what SL clubs do unless they all spend at least £1m on reserve team wages. Otherwise it will be a much lower standard than the championship. Now that will be fine for some players but for the development of others that higher standard would give them the best chance of reaching their potential. As I’ve said there are issue with all these options what we definitely need though is a whole game solution to player development so this has to suit everyone or at least be enough benefit in it for all parties for them to buy into it. 

That's not really true. There are many teams that spend a fraction of that in the Championship. I dont think anyone bar maybe Leigh actually spends £1 million. Even at old funding levels most Championship teams were only getting 200k a year. From now with the TV deal that will be far less. SL clubs already have large squads of full time players, 25 named and more beyond that usually. They already have coaches and off field setup that nearly all Championship teams would die for. Many of the costs and players are already there. It has been said that reserves only cost another 50-100k to run.

In the the old reserve system from about 10-15 years ago, which from memory was u21s with a number of overage players, I remember watching games like Wigan v Leeds and there would have been several first teamers on both sides playing, the likes of Jamie Thackray for Leeds and Mark Calderwood for Wigan. Some of the games were great. It was a valuable level for new players and first teamers coming back from injury or those left out of the first team. SL clubs really dont need to spend much more than they currently do to achieve reserves that would be the same level as many Championship teams.

[fighting irish]

42 minutes ago, Jughead said:

I’ve no idea why we’d do this, in all honesty. 

Super League players play for a weak team stifling their development, there’s less incentive to win for lower league clubs and it’s open to abuse, still. 

 

Fair enough, thanks for contributing.

I raised it in the context/environment that DR is already happening and private arrangements between individual clubs can completely skew the quality of team on the field to the advantage of said club and the disadvantage of all others. That can't be right can it?

We (RL) seem to be hell bent on tearing each other apart and I'm just arguing that we should act in a cooperative way instead. I can see that the existing DR system is just dog eat dog nepotism and bound to be divisive, to the detriment of the game as a whole.

The draft system (proposed) has the benefit of keeping young SL players active, in a highly competitive environment (the championship), even more competitive if the talent is evenly distributed, providing more keenly contested games (for the spectators) which might increase revenue and improving standards at the recipient clubs.

With regard to your point about SL players development being stifled, surely its better to play than sit on the bench, in the dugout (not selected) at a SL game? The point about it causing less incentive to win seems unlikely (to me) because now, with a more even distribution of talent, every team will believe they can win.

That belief is a huge incentive to strive.

I suppose the system could be abused, but I can't see how the existing cosy relationships are anything but abuses of favour/privilege.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, bobbruce said:

It doesn’t really matter what SL clubs do unless they all spend at least £1m on reserve team wages. Otherwise it will be a much lower standard than the championship. Now that will be fine for some players but for the development of others that higher standard would give them the best chance of reaching their potential. As I’ve said there are issue with all these options what we definitely need though is a whole game solution to player development so this has to suit everyone or at least be enough benefit in it for all parties for them to buy into it. 

Should the SL reserves be stronger than the Championship? I would say with a massive emphatic NO it shouldn't.

[Jughead]

1 hour ago, fighting irish said:

Fair enough, thanks for contributing.

I raised it in the context/environment that DR is already happening and private arrangements between individual clubs can completely skew the quality of team on the field to the advantage of said club and the disadvantage of all others. That can't be right can it?

We (RL) seem to be hell bent on tearing each other apart and I'm just arguing that we should act in a cooperative way instead. I can see that the existing DR system is just dog eat dog nepotism and bound to be divisive, to the detriment of the game as a whole.

The draft system (proposed) has the benefit of keeping young SL players active, in a highly competitive environment (the championship), even more competitive if the talent is evenly distributed, providing more keenly contested games (for the spectators) which might increase revenue and improving standards at the recipient clubs.

With regard to your point about SL players development being stifled, surely its better to play than sit on the bench, in the dugout (not selected) at a SL game? The point about it causing less incentive to win seems unlikely (to me) because now, with a more even distribution of talent, every team will believe they can win.

That belief is a huge incentive to strive.

I suppose the system could be abused, but I can't see how the existing cosy relationships are anything but abuses of favour/privilege.

Firstly, if you’re worried about the disparity in the quality of playing squads, should we have professional clubs amongst a predominantly part-time league? For the most part in recent history, a professional side has dominated the Championship. Toulouse last year, Toronto, Leigh and Hull KR before them. Quality will always rise to the top, whether that’s through a club being full-time, a club spending more than others or a combination of those or other factors. 

The dual registration proposal has the benefit of keeping young Super League players active in a highly competitive environment without forced attempts at racing to the bottom and skewing the league table by forcing Super League players to play for weaker teams than those their club is currently affiliated to. 

Young Super League players have had their development stifled by a lack of game time in the last couple of years through covid and the rules regarding bubbles, the lack of Championship competition for a year and the removal of the reserve league. Under the dual registration proposal, they get game time in competitive environments at top Championship clubs (like at Fev if they play for Leeds, Leigh if they play for Saints) rather than being forced to play for weaker teams surrounded by lesser ability temporary colleagues. 

A race to the bottom philosophy to really helps no one, in my view. That’s not to say I’m in favour of dual registration, I just don’t see how this would be any better.

I wouldn’t be against B teams but I’m not sure how the structure could/should work. 

[bobbruce]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Should the SL reserves be stronger than the Championship? I would say with a massive emphatic NO it shouldn't.

No it shouldn’t but some of these players need to playing at that level to develop hence DR. 

[del capo]

This is an entertaining thread but clearly little consensus beyond perhaps views that DR at worse is poisonous and at best is a bitter pill with potential serious side effects.

On 10th September last year SL and the RFL set up a Joint Strategy Group tasked with amongst other issues looking at competition formats at all levels  to secure the best future for the game. They gave themselves 3 months........ I wonder how far they've got.......

[Hemi4561]

4 hours ago, Jughead said:

I’ve no idea why we’d do this, in all honesty. 

Super League players play for a weak team stifling their development, there’s less incentive to win for lower league clubs and it’s open to abuse, still. 

 

Not sure what you mean by "less incentive to win for lower league clubs"? 

[Jughead]

4 minutes ago, Hemi4561 said:

Not sure what you mean by "less incentive to win for lower league clubs"? 

Hypothetical situation, you play Featherstone one week and have a relegation rival the following week, you might as well go weak in the Featherstone game to ensure you’re getting the pick of the available players the following week.

It’s open to abuse and a race to the bottom, also.

 

[Tommygilf]

29 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Hypothetical situation, you play Featherstone one week and have a relegation rival the following week, you might as well go weak in the Featherstone game to ensure you’re getting the pick of the available players the following week.

It’s open to abuse and a race to the bottom, also.

That's just sport? 

[Jughead]

49 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

That's just sport? 

Do many Championship teams choose not to use the DR players when they’ve played Toronto and Toulouse previously and then use them to play Swinton or Workington?

[Tommygilf]

32 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Do many Championship teams choose not to use the DR players when they’ve played Toronto and Toulouse previously and then use them to play Swinton or Workington?

I'm sure all teams in all sports leagues prioritise some fixtures over others.

[Jughead]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

I'm sure all teams in all sports leagues prioritise some fixtures over others.

So, no, there’s no evidence of clubs refusing to use dual registration players based upon their opponent. 

A draft system opens this abuse of the system. It’s a no from me on this idea. 

[fighting irish]

1 hour ago, Jughead said:

So, no, there’s no evidence of clubs refusing to use dual registration players based upon their opponent. 

A draft system opens this abuse of the system. It’s a no from me on this idea. 

You are exaggerating the ability (and the motivation) of a club to abuse the draft.

The idea that a club will deliberately field a weakened team one week (and thereby attain a lower position in the league) is simply unrealistic.

First of all, a loss one week, may not have any effect on league position.

Secondly, unless the range of abilities (from top of the list to the bottom) of the drafted players is enormous (which is highly unlikely) to gain a significant advantage from the draft (by throwing games), you'd have to be throwing more than the odd one and deliberately choose to wallow, at the bottom of the league, significantly lower than you would normally achieve. Who in their right minds would do that?

Thirdly, to suggest that a draft of this nature would inspire a ''race to the bottom'' is just plain silly. 

[gingerjon]

I think we're going to need to split the draft off from the 'B' teams debate or else we're going to have more confusion over what people are responding to.

They are two completely different ideas after all.

[Hemi4561]

3 hours ago, Jughead said:

Hypothetical situation, you play Featherstone one week and have a relegation rival the following week, you might as well go weak in the Featherstone game to ensure you’re getting the pick of the available players the following week.

It’s open to abuse and a race to the bottom, also.

 

Are you for real? This sort of choice is week in week out in every sport that has more players available than are allowed to play, and has a coach that has to decide who is going to play. The choice of who plays is the coaches choice based on a myriad of variables.

[Jughead]

3 minutes ago, Hemi4561 said:

Are you for real? This sort of choice is week in week out in every sport that has more players available than are allowed to play, and has a coach that has to decide who is going to play. The choice of who plays is the coaches choice based on a myriad of variables.

So you’re saying that Swinton have the chance to bring in Saints players every week? I think not. 

A draft, frankly, is a bizarre Americanism we don’t particularly need or want and certainly not in this instance where it’s a race to the bottom and helps no one.

Why do we stop at the Championship anyway? Shouldn’t Saints or Leeds be sending players to West Wales every week instead of just to the Championship? 

[Jughead]

18 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

You are exaggerating the ability (and the motivation) of a club to abuse the draft.

The idea that a club will deliberately field a weakened team one week (and thereby attain a lower position in the league) is simply unrealistic.

First of all, a loss one week, may not have any effect on league position.

Secondly, unless the range of abilities (from top of the list to the bottom) of the drafted players is enormous (which is highly unlikely) to gain a significant advantage from the draft (by throwing games), you'd have to be throwing more than the odd one and deliberately choose to wallow, at the bottom of the league, significantly lower than you would normally achieve. Who in their right minds would do that?

Thirdly, to suggest that a draft of this nature would inspire a ''race to the bottom'' is just plain silly. 

Forcing players to play for weaker teams breaking an existing system in which players go to clubs based upon relationships and a clubs history and results (there’s a reason Leeds use Featherstone and Saints use Leigh and not Dewsbury and Swinton), is a race to the bottom. 

 

[Hemi4561]

1 minute ago, Jughead said:

So you’re saying that Swinton have the chance to bring in Saints players every week? I think not. 

A draft, frankly, is a bizarre Americanism we don’t particularly need or want and certainly not in this instance where it’s a race to the bottom and helps no one.

Why do we stop at the Championship anyway? Shouldn’t Saints or Leeds be sending players to West Wales every week instead of just to the Championship? 

I have never advocated,nor sported the idea of a draft system.where do you get that idea from any of the posts I have made in this thread. My point was that any coach who has more than 19 fit players makes choices about who he picks to play in any particular game and that choice is influenced by many factors.