West Wales Raiders - laughing stock

[steve oates]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

The bottom tier of the professional game is League 1 and is the starting point. We do not have a pyramid from the amateur game.

I don't think it is the "starting point" at all with respect. The original Gateshead started in Superleague. The Catalans also started in Superleague.  Didn't Toulouse on their first stint in the game here start in the Championship. IIRC Toronto were rejected from starting in Superleague despite the  massive investment offered? When you look at this it really is a pigs ear of a "system" and I wonder whether there is in reality any system at all.

Hemel Hempstead spent many pointless years being clobbered weekly so the third tier was a start and end point for them ........

I can accept that in theory 3  leagues allow clubs to develop and build and find their way up the leagues through merit, but the issue for Rugby League in the third tier is nobody is actually building anything much at all, and the idea they are "professional" only comes from players being paid to provide the owner with a team so he can "own his own RL club". 

Those who own the clubs seem to be RL enthusiasts who have enough personal cash to be able to operate at a very low semi-professional level, which is way below the level of many of our amateur clubs.  They seem to offer nothing in terms of development at all and I suspect Cornwalls approach of offering to convert quality RU players to league was designed to get the favourable answer from the RFL. It's all they go on about!!

I've found the information on the funding of league one this year and they are indeed receiving funding from the SKY deal albeit it it is a whopping 74% drop on the last contract. I am not sure any of them will be able to build anything on that level of funding. I'd conclude that League one isn't a development league but a league that allows gentlemen with a bit of money to own their own RL club and the quid pro quo is the Championship ends up being a higher standard.

Not expansion" in my book!!  

[OriginalMrC]

6 minutes ago, steve oates said:

I don't think it is the "starting point" at all with respect. The original Gateshead started in Superleague. The Catalans also started in Superleague.  Didn't Toulouse on their first stint in the game here start in the Championship. IIRC Toronto were rejected from starting in Superleague despite the  massive investment offered? When you look at this it really is a pigs ear of a "system" and I wonder whether there is in reality any system at all.

Hemel Hempstead spent many pointless years being clobbered weekly so the third tier was a start and end point for them ........

I can accept that in theory 3  leagues allow clubs to develop and build and find their way up the leagues through merit, but the issue for Rugby League in the third tier is nobody is actually building anything much at all, and the idea they are "professional" only comes from players being paid to provide the owner with a team so he can "own his own RL club". 

Those who own the clubs seem to be RL enthusiasts who have enough personal cash to be able to operate at a very low semi-professional level, which is way below the level of many of our amateur clubs.  They seem to offer nothing in terms of development at all and I suspect Cornwalls approach of offering to convert quality RU players to league was designed to get the favourable answer from the RFL. It's all they go on about!!

I've found the information on the funding of league one this year and they are indeed receiving funding from the SKY deal albeit it it is a whopping 74% drop on the last contract. I am not sure any of them will be able to build anything on that level of funding. I'd conclude that League one isn't a development league but a league that allows gentlemen with a bit of money to own their own RL club and the quid pro quo is the Championship ends up being a higher standard.

Not expansion" in my book!!  

Sorry but yet again you are showing you know very little about league 1. You are speaking absolute nonsense and need to be called out on it. Maybe take a trip to a league 1 game sometime and educate yourself. 

[Smudger06]

2 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

It’s obviously not ideal still trying to put a squad together 2 months out from the start of the season isn’t ideal (I don’t think the cup fixture is seen as much more than a bit of pre season game) but at the same time teams like West Wales Raiders and Cornwall will be criticised if they sign young local players as they’re not good enough, and they’ll be criticised if they bring in a load of players from the North of England for not developing their own players, they can’t win, but as I said the current situation is far from ideal.

You'd have a mixture of both sets of players ideally. 

[steve oates]

11 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

Sorry but yet again you are showing you know very little about league 1. You are speaking absolute nonsense and need to be called out on it. Maybe take a trip to a league 1 game sometime and educate yourself. 

"Absolute nonsense" is not a discussion.  

Maybe deal with the exact points made? There is enough space for you to expand your argument here??

[Smudger06]

2 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Its embarrassing that not all teams in the Rugby League enter the professional game’s cup competition, and just as embarrassing when some participating clubs as a ‘pre season’ game.

 

Which other sports allow new entities into their professional leagues as opposed to existing clubs who have developed through the amateur/community game. Its called proving you deserve to enter the league.

 

Our game will continue to attract criticism while we enter ‘pop up’ teams straight into the league based entirely on someone indicating they are willing to provide financial backing.

Strong evidence they don't even do any simple due diligence on financials  either. 

[Jughead]

League One is a league of many things to many different clubs. For some it’s a development league to blood players from areas that aren’t “rugby league areas”, for some it’s for rebuilding and targeting promotion back to the Championship, for others it’s probably other things. Maybe that’s an “issue” with League One, that it covers such a variation of clubs of different sizes and clubs in different places from a business and target aspect that it’s never going to meet the needs of all of its participants. 

[newbe]

1 hour ago, steve oates said:

I don't think it is the "starting point" at all with respect. The original Gateshead started in Superleague. The Catalans also started in Superleague.  Didn't Toulouse on their first stint in the game here start in the Championship. IIRC Toronto were rejected from starting in Superleague despite the  massive investment offered? When you look at this it really is a pigs ear of a "system" and I wonder whether there is in reality any system at all.

Hemel Hempstead spent many pointless years being clobbered weekly so the third tier was a start and end point for them ........

I can accept that in theory 3  leagues allow clubs to develop and build and find their way up the leagues through merit, but the issue for Rugby League in the third tier is nobody is actually building anything much at all, and the idea they are "professional" only comes from players being paid to provide the owner with a team so he can "own his own RL club". 

Those who own the clubs seem to be RL enthusiasts who have enough personal cash to be able to operate at a very low semi-professional level, which is way below the level of many of our amateur clubs.  They seem to offer nothing in terms of development at all and I suspect Cornwalls approach of offering to convert quality RU players to league was designed to get the favourable answer from the RFL. It's all they go on about!!

I've found the information on the funding of league one this year and they are indeed receiving funding from the SKY deal albeit it it is a whopping 74% drop on the last contract. I am not sure any of them will be able to build anything on that level of funding. I'd conclude that League one isn't a development league but a league that allows gentlemen with a bit of money to own their own RL club and the quid pro quo is the Championship ends up being a higher standard.

Not expansion" in my book!!  

League1 was at the beginning an expansion league, for example Hemel made the play offs for the 1st couple of seasons. Then the RFL decided to revamp the the leagues then things changed. 

[OriginalMrC]

2 hours ago, steve oates said:

"Absolute nonsense" is not a discussion.  

Maybe deal with the exact points made? There is enough space for you to expand your argument here??

It's not my job to educate you. Most of your posts on league 1 are speculation or opinion based. My suggestion to you is to attend some league 1 games. You might be surprised at the standard of play and the passion shown by fans and players. 

[Marauder]

9 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Its embarrassing that not all teams in the Rugby League enter the professional game’s cup competition, and just as embarrassing when some participating clubs as a ‘pre season’ game.

 

Which other sports allow new entities into their professional leagues as opposed to existing clubs who have developed through the amateur/community game. Its called proving you deserve to enter the league.

 

Our game will continue to attract criticism while we enter ‘pop up’ teams straight into the league based entirely on someone indicating they are willing to provide financial backing.

Sadly there has been many pop up teams throughout the history of the game, many in the so called heartlands where you'd think they would have had an higher survival rate than a Ukrainian Tank crew.

[Smudger06]

It's like Damien said.....you need a clubhouse and a field with some terracing you actually own or a very serious and pretty wealthy backer just to thrive in League 1. 

[Guest]

Catalans didn't start in Super League really. Well technically they did but they were already in existence under different names. 

Gateshead did start in SL but had money withheld.....then failed. Which seems to be a bit of a theme.

[RLNew]

Awful squad up to now, can see Cornwall beating them. Need a coach who can bring some players in, asap

[Jughead]

They’re announcing players, which is good but whose picked them and whose coaching them on Sunday?

[Eddie]

9 minutes ago, RLNew said:

Awful squad up to now, can see Cornwall beating them. Need a coach who can bring some players in, asap

The Bristol Channel Derby will be a massive wooden spoon six (or four) pointer, quite entertaining I expect. 

[Marauder]

4 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Catalans didn't start in Super League really. Well technically they did but they were already in existence under different names. 

Gateshead did start in SL but had money withheld.....then failed. Which seems to be a bit of a theme.

Gateshead is a good example of parachuting a team in a new exotic  location  with no rugby league structure in the area , the RLC did an excellent job in promoting the sport in the North East and Newcastle fostered the amateurs 

[yipyee]

On 23/01/2022 at 19:25, DEANO said:

People keep trying to flog a dead horse. It doesn’t work

Well then Swinton, Oldham, York, Bramley, Hunslet  Sheffield, Doncaster and all other failed and failing lower division clubs should just give up then?

 

[OriginalMrC]

1 hour ago, yipyee said:

Well then Swinton, Oldham, York, Bramley, Hunslet  Sheffield, Doncaster and all other failed and failing lower division clubs should just give up then?

 

Aparently so. Take York as an example. A basket case club for a number of years. Rebuilt in league 1 and look at them now. Using some people's logic they wouldn't exist any more 

[DEANO]

Most of those clubs have good and bad times. That’s sport for you. Unfortunately getting beat every week by huge margins in front of 100 speccies is no good for anyone 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

12 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Catalans didn't start in Super League really. Well technically they did but they were already in existence under different names. 

Gateshead did start in SL but had money withheld.....then failed. Which seems to be a bit of a theme.

 

8 hours ago, Marauder said:

Gateshead is a good example of parachuting a team in a new exotic  location  with no rugby league structure in the area , the RLC did an excellent job in promoting the sport in the North East and Newcastle fostered the amateurs 

As Johnoco said, Gateshead had 50% of their central distribution money withheld. I wonder how Wakefield or Salford would get on in those circumstances? In their year in Super League Gateshead actually got higher attendances than Salford get now, they got over 5000 for 5 of their home games. The club lost £700,000 which was probably about 50% of the sky tv money which was withheld from them. 

[Angelic Cynic]

1 hour ago, DEANO said:

Most of those clubs have good and bad times. That’s sport for you. Unfortunately getting beat every week by huge margins in front of 100 speccies is no good for anyone 

But York got lucky solely by geography of being close enough to the heartlands and utilising dual registration to spark their promotion - expansion clubs,like West Wales Raiders,are too far away.

[Phil W]

Firstly, I hope West Wales get themselves sorted.  

Secondly, and I'll probably get shot down for this. But how about opening up promotion and relegation from League One to The Conference Premier? Is there an appetite for this?

If expansion clubs have a promotion pathway it allows them to go in at a more competitive level and build a fan base etc and work their way through the league's. I know it would need regional leagues feeding into the conference's. But surely that journey gives time.

[steve oates]

22 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

Sorry but yet again you are showing you know very little about league 1. You are speaking absolute nonsense and need to be called out on it. Maybe take a trip to a league 1 game sometime and educate yourself. 

Please don't apologise. I've been to league one games, and also to Dudley Hill and Bradford University games whom I played (very badly) for, years ago. Please do cut the "absolute nonsense" stuff, it isn't an argument.

I refer you to the 2016 Challenge cup when a pre-Kurdi Newcastle, Skolars, Hemel, South Wales and Oxford all took part and all were knocked out of the competition by Amateurs.  That's the problem, there is a pyramid where at the top we have Superleague, and half way down we have a third "professional tier" that is nowhere near as good as the top amateurs below them.  

I refer you to how badly Hemel, South Wales and Oxford failed and how Skolars have gone nowhere. Sure we have other so called "expansion clubs" hanging in there, but maybe you should educate yourself and look at the brutal cut in SKY money for the third tier of the game. Discussing this with friends in the game, the view is this will be the end of League one as we know it.

How will League One clubs survive?? is the first question and if they don't survive (which is likely for clubs not in M62 land) the second question is what structure do we put in place below Superleague?  Your thoughts?? 

[Hopping Mad]

On 26/01/2022 at 07:56, Damien said:

The bottom tier of the professional game is League 1 and is the starting point. We do not have a pyramid from the amateur game.

Our amateur game is full of teams from towns with existing professional clubs. The likes of St Pats, St Judes etc serve a completely different purpose and exist for different reasons than any prospective professional club. They also do not want to be professional clubs. It's not like Football or RU where we have a true pyramid and leagues of aspiring clubs from Birmingham, Bristol or even Bolton and Blackburn looking to join.

The 'true pyramids' of football and rugby union are increasingly overstated. In both sports, the gap between each step on the ladder seems to widen as the seasons pass. Without considerable financial assistance, it's becoming harder and harder to climb those pyramids. Look at how many clubs have got into financial difficulties - some even folding - in the attempt. 

[Bearman]

8 minutes ago, steve oates said:

, but maybe you should educate yourself and look at the brutal cut in SKY money for the third tier of the game. 

Your answer seems to point out that SKY cut the money to the third tier of the game.

Just to clarify. SKY cut the money to all of the game.

Unfortunately, Superleague were the purseholders and it was they that cut the proportion of the money to the teams that were not in Superleague. That reduced money has made a big impact to every level of the game ( inc amatuers).  Hence the sobriquet "Supergreed"

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

The 'true pyramids' of football and rugby union are increasingly overstated. In both sports, the gap between each step on the ladder seems to widen as the seasons pass. Without considerable financial assistance, it's becoming harder and harder to climb those pyramids. Look at how many clubs have got into financial difficulties - some even folding - in the attempt. 

I never said otherwise but they are pyramids all the same and its certainly doable. Our pyramid starts at League 1 and you need to gain entry to the professional ranks, that was the point.