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West Wales Raiders - laughing stock


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2 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

The difference is people from the Catalonia region use the name and region to identify themselves and are immensely proud of it, it’s similar to the states of Queensland or New South Wales. We don’t have that same affinity here with a wider geographical area (other than with Wales and Scotland), we only have it with the town or city we are from.

The region have been trying to form an independent country and the French there see Barcelona as their capital https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20444110 

Can't agree with you Kevin, I have attended lots of games when clubs supporter's from your neck of the woods burst out in the chant "Yerkshir Yerkshir Yerkshir" when playing against teams from o'er big ill.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Yorks Tim said:

I don't imagine Crusaders would have been interested. I doubt Henson would get in their first team squad.

 

No, I don't believe he would - as we seem to have retained a lot of last year's players he wouldn't be good enough..

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cru....Cru.....CRUSADERS!!!!!!

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Can't agree with you Kevin, I have attended lots of games when clubs supporter's from your neck of the woods burst out in the chant "Yerkshir Yerkshir Yerkshir" when playing against teams from o'er big ill.

 

 

 

Ah, is that what they’re trying to say?

I thought it was, “Orc-shire!  Orc-shire! Orc-shire!”

😉

Edited by Gerrumonside ref
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If West Wales are to fail to fulfil a fixture, again, are having trouble appointing a head coach and have had their coaching staff walk out, it becomes increasingly harder to defend them. I want to see them do well but how many chances do you give a side before you question them and their place in the game?

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I’m not sure what their situation is only the rumours I’ve heard but I know at least 1 coach with league one experienced that was interested in the job but heard nothing, not even thanks but no thanks. Think they threw all their eggs in one basket and it hasn’t worked. 
 

I’d imagine people would apply for the job, it’s a pro coaching job at the end of the day, maybe it’s just too tough of a job for any coach, let’s face it with this amount of time left till the season and not much in place, even the best of coaches would struggle. 

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Something is obviously wrong with things at West Wales.

To be one week away from the first game of the season, with no head coach and very few players signed up does not suggest that things are on track.

At this point it would be a surprise if they start the season. Shame really, I've always had a soft spot for them.

At least Cornwall had the good sense not to enter the Cup, which gives them much more time to prepare for the season.

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5 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

Something is obviously wrong with things at West Wales.

To be one week away from the first game of the season, with no head coach and very few players signed up does not suggest that things are on track.

At this point it would be a surprise if they start the season. Shame really, I've always had a soft spot for them.

At least Cornwall had the good sense not to enter the Cup, which gives them much more time to prepare for the season.

Cornwall are already conducting themselves like a pro club, their approach and social media content has been excellent. The RFL tweeting their announcements also gives them added kudos and credibility. 

I notice in League Express, Raiders boss Peter Tiffin says they’ve offered or given contracts to 35 players meaning the potential coach has lots of options. Offered being the operative word I sense… that could mean they’ve only got 10 signed to date. 

Edited by welshmagpie
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3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Can't agree with you Kevin, I have attended lots of games when clubs supporter's from your neck of the woods burst out in the chant "Yerkshir Yerkshir Yerkshir" when playing against teams from o'er big ill.

 

 

 

But have your ever heard chants of “Midlands, Midlands, Midlands” in any sporting or other occasion? 

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On 12/01/2022 at 18:11, Rach said:

 It's not just this particular thread but those recently pertaining to the Hurricanes relaunch , Cornwall and League 1 funding where some of the downright negativity and quite frankly ignorance shown by some contributors towards followers of some of the games smaller clubs has been horrendous .......   

With respect I think you protest far too much here. “Expansion” won’t be achieved by rudely shooting down free speech and opinions (nay facts) you do not like. The serious attempts at expansion were London in 1980, and 42 years on it hasn't worked and it only exists as Mr. Hughes personal plaything.  The next was a Gary Hetherington Sheffield and they even went on to win the Challenge cup but that failed to do anything for the club in terms of more investment, more spectators and more people playing RL in the soccer town despite it's closeness to the M62. He gave up.

South Wales was first started in 1995 and that didn't work without the money, but perhaps did the best when Samuels had a go with his money as the Crusaders with decent crowds and results. One season however was enough for him as it was for the Aussies who had a great superleague season with Gateshead  in 1999 coming in sixth in SL but losing £Hundreds of thousands in the process. 

Organic growth/expansion does not work outside the heartlands and success can only come if someone is prepared to bankroll a club to the tune of many Millions over many many years - at levels of money well in excess of Mr. Hughes efforts.  This is the truth. It is neither negative nor ignorant. 

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36 minutes ago, steve oates said:

With respect I think you protest far too much here. “Expansion” won’t be achieved by rudely shooting down free speech and opinions (nay facts) you do not like. The serious attempts at expansion were London in 1980, and 42 years on it hasn't worked and it only exists as Mr. Hughes personal plaything.  The next was a Gary Hetherington Sheffield and they even went on to win the Challenge cup but that failed to do anything for the club in terms of more investment, more spectators and more people playing RL in the soccer town despite it's closeness to the M62. He gave up.

South Wales was first started in 1995 and that didn't work without the money, but perhaps did the best when Samuels had a go with his money as the Crusaders with decent crowds and results. One season however was enough for him as it was for the Aussies who had a great superleague season with Gateshead  in 1999 coming in sixth in SL but losing £Hundreds of thousands in the process. 

Organic growth/expansion does not work outside the heartlands and success can only come if someone is prepared to bankroll a club to the tune of many Millions over many many years - at levels of money well in excess of Mr. Hughes efforts.  This is the truth. It is neither negative nor ignorant. 

When you say Rugby League hasn’t worked, how do you explain these?

CLUBS in London and South East


 

Edited by Sir Kevin Sinfield
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38 minutes ago, steve oates said:

With respect I think you protest far too much here. “Expansion” won’t be achieved by rudely shooting down free speech and opinions (nay facts) you do not like. The serious attempts at expansion were London in 1980, and 42 years on it hasn't worked and it only exists as Mr. Hughes personal plaything.  The next was a Gary Hetherington Sheffield and they even went on to win the Challenge cup but that failed to do anything for the club in terms of more investment, more spectators and more people playing RL in the soccer town despite it's closeness to the M62. He gave up.

South Wales was first started in 1995 and that didn't work without the money, but perhaps did the best when Samuels had a go with his money as the Crusaders with decent crowds and results. One season however was enough for him as it was for the Aussies who had a great superleague season with Gateshead  in 1999 coming in sixth in SL but losing £Hundreds of thousands in the process. 

Organic growth/expansion does not work outside the heartlands and success can only come if someone is prepared to bankroll a club to the tune of many Millions over many many years - at levels of money well in excess of Mr. Hughes efforts.  This is the truth. It is neither negative nor ignorant. 

Not in excess of Huges but unless you put the money in infrastructure it´s worthless. Crusaders were playing out of a ground they couldn´t generate cash from in SL, same for Gateshead. London have never had a permenent home and that´s why I don´t think it can work down there without franchising because you´d had to spend tens of millions to get a ground in your name or part own.

It´s just infrastructure, that´s it. If you have a foundation you can build and there´s plenty of clubs in heartlands (Oldham, Swinton, Salford until they move, Dale to a certain extent, Doncaster and Giants play out of an oversized football grounds and probably add Halifax to that. Hunslet are stuck behind an athletics track as were Crusaders with a hostile counci and less said about Bulls the better) .

Infrastructure is the only thing, it´s why Newcastly, Fev, York, Leigh could all compete at SL were they to get there and the rest would badly struggle. 

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39 minutes ago, steve oates said:

With respect I think you protest far too much here. “Expansion” won’t be achieved by rudely shooting down free speech and opinions (nay facts) you do not like. The serious attempts at expansion were London in 1980, and 42 years on it hasn't worked and it only exists as Mr. Hughes personal plaything.  The next was a Gary Hetherington Sheffield and they even went on to win the Challenge cup but that failed to do anything for the club in terms of more investment, more spectators and more people playing RL in the soccer town despite it's closeness to the M62. He gave up.

South Wales was first started in 1995 and that didn't work without the money, but perhaps did the best when Samuels had a go with his money as the Crusaders with decent crowds and results. One season however was enough for him as it was for the Aussies who had a great superleague season with Gateshead  in 1999 coming in sixth in SL but losing £Hundreds of thousands in the process. 

Organic growth/expansion does not work outside the heartlands and success can only come if someone is prepared to bankroll a club to the tune of many Millions over many many years - at levels of money well in excess of Mr. Hughes efforts.  This is the truth. It is neither negative nor ignorant. 

I'm not sure I agree with some of this. I'm not sure how serious some of these expansion attempts were and London under Hughes has just seen a lot of money wasted on rented venues for little return. Gary Hetherington also left Sheffield a couple of years before they won the Challenge Cup so its not like he just gave up, Leeds came calling. I do agree with the general sentiment though when it comes to money.

What every failed expansion club has in common is a lack of finance and/or no ground. Having one of those is a struggle but having neither becomes near impossible and makes it hard to amount to anything. If London had a proper home, if Sheffield had a half decent stadium in the 90s, when they had attendances similar to Warrington and Castleford, then I suggest things would have been far different. The infrastructure has all too often been lacking when it comes to new clubs and owners have relied on the benevolence of others when it comes to grounds.

If Samuels had stayed around and kept funding Celtic Crusaders, if the funding was there to keep Toronto going, again I think things would be different. I would argue that both these clubs were successful on various metrics but Samuels pulling out was a disaster and Covid struck which screwed Toronto.

Clubs like Newcastle, so far anyhow, have the golden combination of being well backed and have a permanent ground. Unfortunately that happens all too rarely.

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16 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

When you say Rugby League hasn’t worked, how do you explain these?

CLUBS in London and South East


 

It hasn't worked. You can find junior clubs in any sport in London. Basketball, hockey, ice hockey, ect. Overall, the sport hasn't broken through in the London and the south east. It doesn't come anywhere close to football, union, or cricket. It's on par with basketball and hockey or even Gaelic football.

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You can't win with some people - expansion doesn't count if it's community clubs, or it doesn't count if rugby league isn't as big as football, union or cricket, or it doesn't count unless it's a pro club, or it doesn't count unless that pro club wins cups. I imagine if you cast back far enough, there'd be a long list of clubs in the heartlands that no longer exist. No one would use that to say "rugby league in the heartlands hasn't worked." People talking like rugby league should just arrive in a new area fully formed.

It's just not a level playing field. Take WWR - the nearest club with an adult team is about 35 miles away from them, which is a community club. If you looked at Rochdale as an example, there are 5 Super League clubs within the same radius. Not to mention all the Championship and NCL clubs in the area. The opportunities for a heartlands club to pick up players is at a completely different level to an expansion club, both in terms of cost but also ease. Then people will use that disparity to beat down expansion clubs and say it's failed. What does failed even mean in expansion? If there's a club there, it's expansion, no? Crazy the kind of standards people hold these relatively young organisations to without considering that the deck is massively stacked against them.

BTW - this doesn't excuse WWR or any other expansion club - they knew how stacked the deck was when they started. They still have to compete regardless of how unbalanced the resources are. But to suggest that expansion has failed because WWR are underperforming, or because London Broncos haven't won Super League, or because fewer people play the sport in an area than football is just nuts. Gatekeepers gotta gatekeep I guess.

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2 hours ago, steve oates said:

With respect I think you protest far too much here. “Expansion” won’t be achieved by rudely shooting down free speech and opinions (nay facts) you do not like. The serious attempts at expansion were London in 1980, and 42 years on it hasn't worked and it only exists as Mr. Hughes personal plaything.  The next was a Gary Hetherington Sheffield and they even went on to win the Challenge cup but that failed to do anything for the club in terms of more investment, more spectators and more people playing RL in the soccer town despite it's closeness to the M62. He gave up.

South Wales was first started in 1995 and that didn't work without the money, but perhaps did the best when Samuels had a go with his money as the Crusaders with decent crowds and results. One season however was enough for him as it was for the Aussies who had a great superleague season with Gateshead  in 1999 coming in sixth in SL but losing £Hundreds of thousands in the process. 

Organic growth/expansion does not work outside the heartlands and success can only come if someone is prepared to bankroll a club to the tune of many Millions over many many years - at levels of money well in excess of Mr. Hughes efforts.  This is the truth. It is neither negative nor ignorant. 

This is what I’ve been saying for years but didn’t know how to write it

sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forward

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3 hours ago, steve oates said:

With respect I think you protest far too much here. “Expansion” won’t be achieved by rudely shooting down free speech and opinions (nay facts) you do not like. The serious attempts at expansion were London in 1980, and 42 years on it hasn't worked and it only exists as Mr. Hughes personal plaything.  The next was a Gary Hetherington Sheffield and they even went on to win the Challenge cup but that failed to do anything for the club in terms of more investment, more spectators and more people playing RL in the soccer town despite it's closeness to the M62. He gave up.

South Wales was first started in 1995 and that didn't work without the money, but perhaps did the best when Samuels had a go with his money as the Crusaders with decent crowds and results. One season however was enough for him as it was for the Aussies who had a great superleague season with Gateshead  in 1999 coming in sixth in SL but losing £Hundreds of thousands in the process. 

Organic growth/expansion does not work outside the heartlands and success can only come if someone is prepared to bankroll a club to the tune of many Millions over many many years - at levels of money well in excess of Mr. Hughes efforts.  This is the truth. It is neither negative nor ignorant. 

Newcastle thunder?

Sheffield Eagles?

Coventry/ Midlands?

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4 hours ago, steve oates said:

...The serious attempts at expansion were London in 1980, and 42 years on it hasn't worked and it only exists as Mr. Hughes personal plaything.

A fair whack of that is down to Mr Hughes though.

Edited by Stuff Smith
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3 hours ago, steve oates said:

With respect I think you protest far too much here. “Expansion” won’t be achieved by rudely shooting down free speech and opinions (nay facts) you do not like. The serious attempts at expansion were London in 1980, and 42 years on it hasn't worked and it only exists as Mr. Hughes personal plaything.  The next was a Gary Hetherington Sheffield and they even went on to win the Challenge cup but that failed to do anything for the club in terms of more investment, more spectators and more people playing RL in the soccer town despite it's closeness to the M62. He gave up.

South Wales was first started in 1995 and that didn't work without the money, but perhaps did the best when Samuels had a go with his money as the Crusaders with decent crowds and results. One season however was enough for him as it was for the Aussies who had a great superleague season with Gateshead  in 1999 coming in sixth in SL but losing £Hundreds of thousands in the process. 

Organic growth/expansion does not work outside the heartlands and success can only come if someone is prepared to bankroll a club to the tune of many Millions over many many years - at levels of money well in excess of Mr. Hughes efforts.  This is the truth. It is neither negative nor ignorant. 

Your argument,here above, is seriously flawed.

I don't know how you measure success and I don't have time to waste.

You keep naming the club owners.Hughes,at London,has moved location and lost much of the fanbase.I would suggest their Academy products,Cup finals,quality coaches and players have made it a success.

Sheffield were forced into a merger and have been homeless.Theirs is a success story,against all odds.

Crusaders,at Bridgend,went through the leagues,without their own stadium,and when Samuel's opted out the club couldn't continue.

Sheffield had been forced into a merger with a heartlands club - Huddersfield.

Gateshead were forced onto a merger with Hull FC.Hull had regular financial issues over the years,having to sell Schofield and crooks to Leeds to survive in the 80's.

The heartland clubs need individuals to bankroll the clubs - after years of money from broadcast deals that the majority of expansion clubs never see.

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     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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31 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Your argument,here above, is seriously flawed.

I don't know how you measure success and I don't have time to waste.

You keep naming the club owners.Hughes,at London,has moved location and lost much of the fanbase.I would suggest their Academy products,Cup finals,quality coaches and players have made it a success.

Sheffield were forced into a merger and have been homeless.Theirs is a success story,against all odds.

Crusaders,at Bridgend,went through the leagues,without their own stadium,and when Samuel's opted out the club couldn't continue.

Sheffield had been forced into a merger with a heartlands club - Huddersfield.

Gateshead were forced onto a merger with Hull FC.Hull had regular financial issues over the years,having to sell Schofield and crooks to Leeds to survive in the 80's.

The heartland clubs need individuals to bankroll the clubs - after years of money from broadcast deals that the majority of expansion clubs never see.

Gateshead then Newcastle carried on ever since and invested in the pyramid below, they are a success story

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22 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Can't agree with you Kevin, I have attended lots of games when clubs supporter's from your neck of the woods burst out in the chant "Yerkshir Yerkshir Yerkshir" when playing against teams from o'er big ill.

 

 

 

Yep....and when KR/FC do it down here we have enjoyed singing back to them "Humber! Humber!"

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14 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

When you say Rugby League hasn’t worked, how do you explain these? CLUBS in London and South East

We are clearly discussing professional rugby league here and the ambitions of some clubs outside the north to  become professional RL clubs in the professional structures. Amateur Rugby League dates back to the 1930's in London and isn't in any way part of the proposal that Professional RL isn't working beyond the M62 and never really has worked beyond the  M62 heartland and French heartlands

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11 hours ago, yipyee said:

Gateshead then Newcastle carried on ever since and invested in the pyramid below, they are a success story

They are indeed doing brilliantly to date but they need the very large sums of money from their Chairman to do so. You could have also argued that Toronto Wolfpack was a success story to climb the leagues all the way to Superleague but where are they now? Money that merely gives us the impression a club is doing well which once removed leads to complete collapse as was the case with Wolfpack isn't the kind of "expansion" we ideally want.

That's not to say that if Mr. Kurdi goes on for another 10 years we may well indeed have a real "expansion" success. If so what will that teach us about how to expand the professional game?? 

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11 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Your argument,here above, is seriously flawed.I don't know how you measure success and I don't have time to waste.

The heartland clubs need individuals to bankroll the clubs - after years of money from broadcast deals that the majority of expansion clubs never see.

So why did you bother to make the rather rude reply in the first place? You say.... "The heartland clubs need individuals to bankroll the clubs - after years of money from broadcast deals that the majority of expansion clubs never see".

Most heartland clubs indeed need individuals to bankroll their clubs to meet their ambitions. Indeed most heartland clubs have over the last 100 years and more have had a long history of many such gentlemen running their clubs.

But the problem with "expansion" is exactly that.  The expansion clubs either don't have someone rich to develop the club in the first place, or if they do and he leaves there is very often nobody else with real money interested in taking over.

Who is bankrolling Cornwall??

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