Toulouse imploding

[Agbrigg]

3 hours ago, Eddie said:

From a small sample of people I know, yes. 

I was talking to a couple of blokes the other day and all the three of us said the opposite. That's a small sample 

[Eddie]

3 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

I was talking to a couple of blokes the other day and all the three of us said the opposite. That's a small sample 

You all said you’d rather watch Wakefield Trinity than Catalans? Are you Trinity fans? 

[GUBRATS]

15 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Good old Starbug,always quick to rubbish other posters ideas but never offers any himself.

I'm fine with things as they are , except moving the lower tier season to boxing day start and August finish , giving any promoted team more time to prepare and recruit , as Widnes had in 2021

So are you going to answer my questions ? , Or are you bottling it again ? 

 

 

 

 

So bottling it is 

[Omott91]

8 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

Cats didn’t pick up Leigh’s travel costs last season, so is this only TO? Do you feel it acceptable for non UK SL clubs to get a share of the Sky funding when the broadcaster gets no subs from that nation for the sport?

 

Does Sky care? Clearly not. 

[sweaty craiq]

33 minutes ago, Omott91 said:

Does Sky care? Clearly not. 

That’s true the increased funding proves it

[Davo5]

5 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

That’s true the increased funding proves it

Yeah the decrease in the Sky funding was obviously a result of Leigh being relegated again from Superleague.

[The Rocket]

On 08/03/2022 at 09:55, Jughead said:

Why should we ring-fence Toulouse Olympique but not Newcastle Thunder and/or York City Knights? Growth exists within the UK, too, and if we are ring-fencing certain clubs based on geography and the potential of certain clubs, why would we not do that for others based in the UK? And if we were too, how do you justify potentially relegating mid-table clubs based upon their face not fitting because of something like geographical location? 

I don`t think this is particularly `because they`re French` let`s protect them, or `ring-fence` them as you call it, argument. And if say York or Newcastle had been the team that had fought their way into the Super League we would be having the same debate about them.

In particular I find that your nomination of those two, one city team from a relatively large metropolis, is almost a concession that you understand the arguments being made for Toulouse, it`s just that they are not in Britain that you find the problem.

And I dare say that those on here arguing for the French city team would be arguing with just as hard for the two you nominated if they had scrapped and fought their way into the Super League and for exactly same reasons.

This isn`t a France vs. England debate. It`s a `we might have a club here that has real big-club potential ` argument. It just so happens that Toulouse are in France, they come from a city of 1 million people, they don`t have a hostile relationship with their co-tenant union club and they have a Mayor who has said publicly he wants that city to be " the oval-ball capital of Europe ". That`s before we even get to having a ready made rival who has trodden the same path successfully.

None of us can be certain that Toulouse are going to be a success, but you weigh up the pro`s and con`s and you place your bet, we may well be wrong, but that`s life, but you have to do something.

[The Rocket]

14 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Not sure it is about the club for me because for me, it isnt an England vs France debate but an enabler.  

No UK team can play England in a regular international and generate the extra fta coverage and commercial rev that comes from that.  

By locking in french clubs you can get that increase in french player base to get a better Eng vs France and stronger French side. 

The TV money from the current SL product has probably peaked so we need to grow the biggest untapped market the european game has. 

And I`m sure that for most people it isn`t ; my response was for that particular poster. 

The rest of your points are further arguments why so many see Toulouse as an opportunity not to be wasted.

[Jughead]

1 hour ago, The Rocket said:

I don`t think this is particularly `because they`re French` let`s protect them, or `ring-fence` them as you call it, argument. And if say York or Newcastle had been the team that had fought their way into the Super League we would be having the same debate about them.

In particular I find that your nomination of those two, one city team from a relatively large metropolis, is almost a concession that you understand the arguments being made for Toulouse, it`s just that they are not in Britain that you find the problem.

And I dare say that those on here arguing for the French city team would be arguing with just as hard for the two you nominated if they had scrapped and fought their way into the Super League and for exactly same reasons.

This isn`t a France vs. England debate. It`s a `we might have a club here that has real big-club potential ` argument. It just so happens that Toulouse are in France, they come from a city of 1 million people, they don`t have a hostile relationship with their co-tenant union club and they have a Mayor who has said publicly he wants that city to be " the oval-ball capital of Europe ". That`s before we even get to having a ready made rival who has trodden the same path successfully.

None of us can be certain that Toulouse are going to be a success, but you weigh up the pro`s and con`s and you place your bet, we may well be wrong, but that`s life, but you have to do something.

To suggest I have a problem with a team because they’re French is crass, wide of the mark and incorrect. 

I have an issue with ring fencing some clubs not all and find the idea of doing so, whilst also having promotion and relegation, a poor idea. 

[Tubby]

18 hours ago, Eddie said:

From a small sample of people I know, yes. 

Small sample... The basis for many an assertion.  The small group I spoke with said they'd prefer to see Huyton; I don't beliere this to be true either.

[Scubby]

3 hours ago, The Rocket said:

I don`t think this is particularly `because they`re French` let`s protect them, or `ring-fence` them as you call it, argument. And if say York or Newcastle had been the team that had fought their way into the Super League we would be having the same debate about them.

In particular I find that your nomination of those two, one city team from a relatively large metropolis, is almost a concession that you understand the arguments being made for Toulouse, it`s just that they are not in Britain that you find the problem.

And I dare say that those on here arguing for the French city team would be arguing with just as hard for the two you nominated if they had scrapped and fought their way into the Super League and for exactly same reasons.

This isn`t a France vs. England debate. It`s a `we might have a club here that has real big-club potential ` argument. It just so happens that Toulouse are in France, they come from a city of 1 million people, they don`t have a hostile relationship with their co-tenant union club and they have a Mayor who has said publicly he wants that city to be " the oval-ball capital of Europe ". That`s before we even get to having a ready made rival who has trodden the same path successfully.

None of us can be certain that Toulouse are going to be a success, but you weigh up the pro`s and con`s and you place your bet, we may well be wrong, but that`s life, but you have to do something.

RL in a nut shell. At first I thought it might be anti-French but it is not, it's just a game that is pretty insecure and places self preservation against progress. The reason for this is money. The pot is shrinking and everyone is fighting for the diminishing pot rather than thinking how the pot could grow. 

L1 funding is an example of that.

[Eddie]

28 minutes ago, Tubby said:

Small sample... The basis for many an assertion.  The small group I spoke with said they'd prefer to see Huyton; I don't beliere this to be true either.

So do you think most neutral RL fans in England would rather watch Wakefield Trinity or Catalans Dragons, given the choice? 

[Harry Stottle]

On 07/03/2022 at 22:55, Jughead said:

Why should we ring-fence Toulouse Olympique but not Newcastle Thunder and/or York City Knights? Growth exists within the UK, too, and if we are ring-fencing certain clubs based on geography and the potential of certain clubs, why would we not do that for others based in the UK? And if we were too, how do you justify potentially relegating mid-table clubs based upon their face not fitting because of something like geographical location? 

Personally, I don’t see a way in which we can have a very loose form of licencing on certain clubs and not others and then still attempt to keep a handful of relatively small, limited clubs happy by still offering them the carrot of promotion, in which the odds are stacked even further against them by treating others differently. 

Sorry for the late reply, but you are so correct in what you say, it is very easy for some just to say lock in the French Teams without having any consideration whatsoever of the  consequences that it will have on other teams some new some as old as the Northern Union itself, there can only be one set of rules to suit all club's as far as grading to which system they play in, any other considerations would have to be employed by adhering to a set of criteria, like stadium condition for example, I am sure that being in another country would/could not the a condition that may just have a contradiction on trade laws.

[tuutaisrambo]

I don't think RL should ever protect any team or remove P&R........ sport is survival of the fittest.........otherwise what's the point of any of it really. Licensing may work in other countries but not in the uk with over 100 years of promotion and relegation being part of the sporting culture.

Personally (aside from sorting out International RL) I think the best way to boost the sport would be to remove the salary cap.  The salary cap has never lead to a more even competition anyway.

In a sport with no money why limit what clubs can spend? How many genuinely wealthy clubs are in SL?

That way a newly promoted club that is well backed can just spend more to make sure they stay up.

Dropping the cap would set SL apart from Union and the NRL and we may get some more wealthy investors.

[Harry Stottle]

49 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

It wouldnt have any consequences on uk teams trying to make It to SL, bar not travelling to France. 

Off course it would, when there are points at stake every game to be won that over the season eventuates in a teams position in the league ladder, sorry Salop but if you are a team that finishes in a relegation spot you are relegated no matter who you are and where you come from, can you not understand how that can be manipulated if it matters not what the results of games are when results have no bearing on relegation?

[Tubby]

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

So do you think most neutral RL fans in England would rather watch Wakefield Trinity or Catalans Dragons, given the choice? 

Honestly?  I don't think they care, either can produce a good game.  I find it bizarre that anyone thinks the name of a team has any effect on the majority of sports fans, their own local fans yes, but casual TV viewers?  Why would they care?  All anyone wants to see is a good compatitive game. Over the years, sometimes that's been more likely to be Catalan, other times it's been Wakefield, or Salford, or Wigan, or Leeds, or Hull KR, or whoever.

I have no issue with expanding the game, I think it's a necessary and helful aim.  But why that must be protected to the detriment of anyone else, I can't agree with.

Do you think casual ovservers would prefer to watch Featherstone, or Newcastle, now, as both are playing?

[Eddie]

1 minute ago, Tubby said:

Honestly?  I don't think they care, either can produce a good game.  I find it bizarre that anyone thinks the name of a team has any effect on the majority of sports fans, their own local fans yes, but casual TV viewers?  Why would they care?  All anyone wants to see is a good compatitive game. Over the years, sometimes that's been more likely to be Catalan, other times it's been Wakefield, or Salford, or Wigan, or Leeds, or Hull KR, or whoever.

I have no issue with expanding the game, I think it's a necessary and helful aim.  But why that must be protected to the detriment of anyone else, I can't agree with.

Do you think casual ovservers would prefer to watch Featherstone, or Newcastle, now, as both are playing?

I’d say people who don’t know anything about RL would rather watch Newcastle, those that do would rather watch Fev. 
 

We’ll have to agree to disagree about it not mattering who’s playing though, in all sports people are more likely to want to watch the better teams, Man City v Chelsea for example will draw more neutrals than Norwich v Burnley. 

[Tubby]

18 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I’d say people who don’t know anything about RL would rather watch Newcastle, those that do would rather watch Fev. 
 

We’ll have to agree to disagree about it not mattering who’s playing though, in all sports people are more likely to want to watch the better teams, Man City v Chelsea for example will draw more neutrals than Norwich v Burnley. 

But my point is, 'better' is very subjective.  I honestly believe having a big city named club in a TV contest has little bearing, when it's a minority sport.  Watching Catalan play Newcastle, dropping every ball and tripping over their own feet would be less of a draw than Batley playing Widnes and throwing the ball around and entertaining the crowd.  And vice versa.

I appreciate the point you're making about someone who knows nothing about the sport seeing Paris v Barcelona and thinking that would be better to watch than Huyton v Thatto Heath, but how many people who have never heard of the game are going to be attracted anyway?

[Eddie]

4 minutes ago, Tubby said:

But my point is, 'better' is very subjective.  I honestly believe having a big city named club in a TV contest has little bearing, when it's a minority sport.  Watching Catalan play Newcastle, dropping every ball and tripping over their own feet would be less of a draw than Batley playing Widnes and throwing the ball around and entertaining the crowd.  And vice versa.

I appreciate the point you're making about someone who knows nothing about the sport seeing Paris v Barcelona and thinking that would be better to watch than Huyton v Thatto Heath, but how many people who have never heard of the game are going to be attracted anyway?

Well yeah totally agree on your last point. I was thinking more Catalans v Wire being more of a draw than Wakey v Wire, but who knows I may well be wrong (often am!). 

[Scubby]

7 minutes ago, Tubby said:

But my point is, 'better' is very subjective.  I honestly believe having a big city named club in a TV contest has little bearing, when it's a minority sport.  Watching Catalan play Newcastle, dropping every ball and tripping over their own feet would be less of a draw than Batley playing Widnes and throwing the ball around and entertaining the crowd.  And vice versa.

I appreciate the point you're making about someone who knows nothing about the sport seeing Paris v Barcelona and thinking that would be better to watch than Huyton v Thatto Heath, but how many people who have never heard of the game are going to be attracted anyway?

I think both of you are right. It is much more nuanced and complex than just one or the other.

There is little doubt that Toronto appearing on the scene caused a huge uptick in interest. People who never spoke about RL before were asking about it and I'm sure that was enticing for casual viewers - big city non-UK team.

However, a great match with a great atmosphere between two good teams (e.g. Castleford v Salford) can also catch the eye because our game is an exceptional TV sport.

There is little doubt that Toulouse and Catalans does entice viewers on a casual level. But as I say, there is room for everyone.

[Eddie]

46 minutes ago, Scubby said:

I think both of you are right. It is much more nuanced and complex than just one or the other.

There is little doubt that Toronto appearing on the scene caused a huge uptick in interest. People who never spoke about RL before were asking about it and I'm sure that was enticing for casual viewers - big city non-UK team.

However, a great match with a great atmosphere between two good teams (e.g. Castleford v Salford) can also catch the eye because our game is an exceptional TV sport.

There is little doubt that Toulouse and Catalans does entice viewers on a casual level. But as I say, there is room for everyone.

One of my mates in Norwich who has zero interest in RL before Toronto even bought their jersey, I know this thread isn’t about them but (as you mentioned it) that was such a missed opportunity. 

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, Eddie said:

One of my mates in Norwich who has zero interest in RL before Toronto even bought their jersey, I know this thread isn’t about them but (as you mentioned it) that was such a missed opportunity. 

The NRL want the Warriors at all costs and have spent millions and millions to secure that market in horrendous adversity. Had they not, there would be no Warriors now. Super League showed exactly what they thought of Toronto. As you say, another RL history quiz question now

[Jughead]

There’s no professional club out there that does not care about results and gives up. It’s simply a poor scare tactic. The intensity may not be as evident at the end of the season as it would be at the beginning if the game doesn’t not affect the table too much but that’s very different from not caring and/or giving up. 

Results and performances continue to have a bearing on a club even without relegation. Hull KR in 2020 are the prime example of that. They finished eleventh, bottom of Super League in that truncated year, winning three of their seventeen games. That year was the breakthrough of Mikey Lewis, a player as exciting as any other young English player in the game, and saw KR progress to within eighty minutes of Old Trafford less than a year later, have seen the club make some impressive signings and have seen them create a matchday event in a previously unused space of their stadium that is far better than most clubs’ offerings. Is all of this born out of them giving up on 2020

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

4 hours ago, Eddie said:

So do you think most neutral RL fans in England would rather watch Wakefield Trinity or Catalans Dragons, given the choice? 

Catalans 

[Harry Stottle]

12 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Catalans 

Put Barrow into the equation after the performance on Monday most probably the most enjoyable/entertaining televised game of the season INCLUDING SL GAMES, sorry forgot the Championship is below you keV you will not have watched it.