Toulouse imploding

[theswanmcr]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

To embed French teams I to the UK league a decision needs to be made on costs. Admitting a French team may incur a cost of say £500k to the game - no TV income covers that, it is a pure cost. 

Who should fund that?  Because let's be honest here, if the answer is the existing clubs will foot the bill then the answer is likely to be no. 

I really don't think we should be shy about getting other people to pay for things. I don't think it is unusual for things like this, whether it is paying costs (the NRL has done it in the past) or whether it is things like huge franchise fees to join leagues. 

It should also be remembered that these costs are in effect a reduction from their central funding. 

Yes but there has to be give and take and the benefits and costs shared.

Loads of UK fans rightly asking why they can’t see their team’s games in Toulouse on TV anywhere. But if TO weren’t paying all travel costs then that money could be spent on providing this coverage - like Catalans do.

So instead the UK clubs force the new foreign club to pay their travel, there’s no live coverage and many fans blame the new boys as they see no value in having another foreign team.

Its a vicious circle driven by short term gain as ever by SL clubs.

[Saint Toppy]

On 13/03/2022 at 15:51, kiggy said:

Having to play St Helens 3 times is a bit unlucky

Is it, I thought the loop fixtures were determined by how well you did the pervious season, so the newly promoted team were always going to have to play the best team in SL 3 times. Or put another way the top teams in SL have earned the right to have a slightly easier set of loop fixtures

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, theswanmcr said:

Yes but there has to be give and take and the benefits and costs shared.

Loads of UK fans rightly asking why they can’t see their team’s games in Toulouse on TV anywhere. But if TO weren’t paying all travel costs then that money could be spent on providing this coverage - like Catalans do.

So instead the UK clubs force the new foreign club to pay their travel, there’s no live coverage and many fans blame the new boys as they see no value in having another foreign team.

Its a vicious circle driven by short term gain as ever by SL clubs.

Firstly, I agree with the principle of sharing the risks and sharing the benefits, that would be my preference, but the problem with that is that the business case just doesn't stack up really, over 15 years in and Catalans can only get games on TV if they pay from their own pocket. Would any comp really choose to expand into a territory that delivers zero media income? 

It's too easy to make excuses for teams on stuff like this, Toulouse have been paying travel costs for ages, they now have access to increased funding (I'm assuming they have central funding here!), so they are far better off than last year. They will also get bigger crowds, and they will have bigger and better sponsors (again, assumptions, but the logic makes sense). 

So where have they spent the extra money? They have hardly improved their squad, and their operation doesn't appear to be much stronger. So they are probably a million or two stronger, but where are we seeing that? 

As I say, I agree with your principle overall, personally I'd charge an admission fee to the pyramid and then give equal rights, but the likes of Toulouse and Toronto made terrible decisions in their move from Championships to SL. Not everything links back to some modest costs. 

[Just Browny]

32 minutes ago, Dave T said:

To embed French teams I to the UK league a decision needs to be made on costs. Admitting a French team may incur a cost of say £500k to the game - no TV income covers that, it is a pure cost. 

Who should fund that?  Because let's be honest here, if the answer is the existing clubs will foot the bill then the answer is likely to be no. 

I really don't think we should be shy about getting other people to pay for things. I don't think it is unusual for things like this, whether it is paying costs (the NRL has done it in the past) or whether it is things like huge franchise fees to join leagues. 

It should also be remembered that these costs are in effect a reduction from their central funding. 

Dave, Super League clubs should be paying for their own travel. There should be a central pot - from sponsorship, final revenue etc - to support semi-pro and amateur clubs with excessive costs (which could just be a trip from Kells to Aldershot).

If Warrington drew Catalan away, Warrington should be paying their own travel costs, not Catalans. I don't mind clubs being admitted to SL (e.g. like a a Toronto) with conditions they need to meet to attain 'full entry/membership' over a few years, but I'm very uncomfortable with French clubs (or any other teams who come in and add value to our competition) being constant gastarbeiter - liable to be chucked out on a whim.

[Tommygilf]

24 minutes ago, Dave T said:

To embed French teams I to the UK league a decision needs to be made on costs.

That is the critical point here. What are we?

De facto were an English League with guest clubs.

De Jure we are a European League that primarily relies on the RFL for infrastructure (refs etc).

Grey areas come about any time clubs from outside the traditional northern heartlands are proposed, even if within the UK. See comments on travel to Glasgow from 70 years ago and Cornwall more recently.

The fact the above is so ad hoc and not solid isn't a good point of strength for the game.

[dealwithit]

Travel costs should be paid for centrally. If the RFL permits foreign teams entering, it doesn’t matter what league they play in — the travel costs are covered. 

[barnyia]

Don't forget the Catalan have to pay a bond too just incase they get to the final, another reason toulouse didn't want to play in the cup, as well as extra travel costs. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Just Browny said:

Dave, Super League clubs should be paying for their own travel. There should be a central pot - from sponsorship, final revenue etc - to support semi-pro and amateur clubs with excessive costs (which could just be a trip from Kells to Aldershot).

If Warrington drew Catalan away, Warrington should be paying their own travel costs, not Catalans. I don't mind clubs being admitted to SL (e.g. like a a Toronto) with conditions they need to meet to attain 'full entry/membership' over a few years, but I'm very uncomfortable with French clubs (or any other teams who come in and add value to our competition) being constant gastarbeiter - liable to be chucked out on a whim.

As I say, I don't disagree with this - it is certainly a miserly approach, but it is your 2nd para which is the crux of the point here. 

As per my last post - i'd charge a set entry fee and give equal rights to everything. It's like we have sort of done that but done it in a really tinpot way. Which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

That is the critical point here. What are we?

De facto were an English League with guest clubs.

De Jure we are a European League that primarily relies on the RFL for infrastructure (refs etc).

Grey areas come about any time clubs from outside the traditional northern heartlands are proposed, even if within the UK. See comments on travel to Glasgow from 70 years ago and Cornwall more recently.

The fact the above is so ad hoc and not solid isn't a good point of strength for the game.

Agreed. 

But lets be clear - it is a UK league, with artificially placed French teams - there is a direct line from the RFL Championships. We have never been brave enough to make the proper leap as the URC (Pro14) league has done and become a true partnership.

The thing I would say though is that costs can't keep being ignored, look how that worked for Bradford or Toulouse (or the many other examples throughout the life of RL and sport).

The NRL are pretty prudent in their expansion approach. They will go to places where the clubs have tens of millions in investment, and costs (Perth) are certainly a huge part of the decision making.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, dealwithit said:

Travel costs should be paid for centrally. If the RFL permits foreign teams entering, it doesn’t matter what league they play in — the travel costs are covered. 

And that brings us nicely onto the core point. So if the RFL are paying this, what are they using to pay the costs? Because they don't have half a million a year to cover this. And what benefit does the RFL get?

I suspect your point is that it is taken from central funding - well that is just the clubs paying for it. That's not a bad approach in itself, but it does then leave us open to poor decisions being made because of costs to individual clubs.

Ultimately this type of thing just highlights flaws in governnace.

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Agreed. 

But lets be clear - it is a UK league, with artificially placed French teams - there is a direct line from the RFL Championships. We have never been brave enough to make the proper leap as the URC (Pro14) league has done and become a true partnership.

The thing I would say though is that costs can't keep being ignored, look how that worked for Bradford or Toulouse (or the many other examples throughout the life of RL and sport).

The NRL are pretty prudent in their expansion approach. They will go to places where the clubs have tens of millions in investment, and costs (Perth) are certainly a huge part of the decision making.

I agree, though would say "English" rather than "UK". The two Welsh clubs often seems as much guests as any others at times and even then, English is stretching given the attitude to some teams outside of the establishment.

Ultimately I only see us lurching on directionless without establishing clear aims and criteria.

[dkw]

15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Agreed. 

But lets be clear - it is a UK league, with artificially placed French teams - there is a direct line from the RFL Championships. We have never been brave enough to make the proper leap as the URC (Pro14) league has done and become a true partnership.

The thing I would say though is that costs can't keep being ignored, look how that worked for Bradford or Toulouse (or the many other examples throughout the life of RL and sport).

The NRL are pretty prudent in their expansion approach. They will go to places where the clubs have tens of millions in investment, and costs (Perth) are certainly a huge part of the decision making.

I think you are missing the point that the Catalns team didn't apply to get in SL, they were actively invited into Super League and yet are now having costs added that no English clubs have, which is frankly disgusting.

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I agree, though would say "English" rather than "UK". The two Welsh clubs often seems as much guests as any others at times and even then, English is stretching given the attitude to some teams outside of the establishment.

Ultimately I only see us lurching on directionless without establishing clear aims and criteria.

You could have said UK until the RFL overhaul which led to it stopping directly supporting the game in Wales and Scotland.

I can’t remember when that was. 2010ish?

[gingerjon]

Just now, dkw said:

I think you are missing the point that the Catalns team didn't apply to get in SL, they were actively invited into Super League and yet are now having costs added that no English clubs have, which is frankly disgusting.

Browny got it right, for once, when he said that the attitude is consistently towards treating them like Gastarbeiter.

[dkw]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

Browny got it right, for once, when he said that the attitude is consistently towards treating them like Gastarbeiter.

Yeah I fully agreed with that.....once I googled what the hell that meant....

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, dealwithit said:

Travel costs should be paid for centrally. If the RFL permits foreign teams entering, it doesn’t matter what league they play in — the travel costs are covered. 

That would be a better way of doing things IMO - would cover expected cup costs etc

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, dkw said:

I think you are missing the point that the Catalns team didn't apply to get in SL, they were actively invited into Super League and yet are now having costs added that no English clubs have, which is frankly disgusting.

Sort of, clubs were invted to apply iirc, they won the place. 

As I say, we shouldn't be afraid of charging for a place, but I agree it's a bit poxy how we have done it. It happened with Leigh in 2021.

[dkw]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Sort of, clubs were voted to apply iirc, they won the place. 

As I say, we shouldn't be afraid of charging for a place, but I agree it's a bit poxy how we have done it. It happened with Leigh in 2021.

Ah, but they were invited to apply....

Check and mate.........

Its just galling how these costs and rules are just applied so arbitrarily. What about us up here in proper north, there is literally nothing stopping the RFL from instigating a rule that Town and Haven have to pay for all Yorkshire and Lancashire clubs travel to our grounds, and theres basically sod all we could do about it...

 

And dont go getting any ideas Ralph if you read this you git...

[sweaty craiq]

Its screaming for two tens isn't it !

Imagine 4 French FT clubs in the mix

A position to allow Newcastle to grow securely from, or London to rebuild from as FT clubs playing other FT clubs

Minimum spends,  not caps, with caveats and a joining fee of say £1m per club - it should be greater imo.

If only the skint luddites would move over and let the sport develop

[Dave T]

Just now, dkw said:

Ah, but they were invited to apply....

Check and mate.........

Its just galling how these costs and rules are just applied so arbitrarily. What about us up here in proper north, there is literally nothing stopping the RFL from instigating a rule that Town and Haven have to pay for all Yorkshire and Lancashire clubs travel to our grounds, and theres basically sod all we could do about it...

 

And dont go getting any ideas Ralph if you read this you git...

I'm confused, you are saying check and mate to a point I gave you?

Leigh are in the North aren't they? So were Bradford when funding was withheld. 

It's bad governance that leads us to these places. It'll be interesting to see if this new board makes a difference. 

[dkw]

Just now, Dave T said:

I'm confused, you are saying check and mate to a point I gave you?

Leigh are in the North aren't they? So were Bradford when funding was withheld. 

It's bad governance that leads us to these places. It'll be interesting to see if this new board makes a difference. 

Not proper north.....its sort of north. Were proper north. Youre sort of north Westish...I`ll do a map on MS paint one day for you.

You are hoping the 3rd board that looks after the other board that has governance over that other board will make a difference? Also, apropos of nothing, I've some magic seeds to sell you.

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Leigh are in the North aren't they?

I've lived in Cumbria.

To that bunch, anything south of Sedbergh is the midlands at best.

[Dave T]

Just now, gingerjon said:

I've lived in Cumbria.

To that bunch, anything south of Sedbergh is the midlands at best.

Yes, having spent the last decade in Edinburgh I now live back down South myself. 

[dkw]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I've lived in Cumbria.

To that bunch, anything south of Sedbergh is the midlands at best.

Shut it you soft southern shandy drinker.....

 

But you're not wrong.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, sweaty craiq said:

Its screaming for two tens isn't it !

Imagine 4 French FT clubs in the mix

A position to allow Newcastle to grow securely from, or London to rebuild from as FT clubs playing other FT clubs

Minimum spends,  not caps, with caveats and a joining fee of say £1m per club - it should be greater imo.

If only the skint luddites would move over and let the sport develop

Which are the other two French clubs, and why only 16 English, I can think of more who’d be worthy of a place;

 Saints, , Leeds, Wire, Salford, Widnes, Hull x 2, Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, Newcastle, York, Barrow, Sheffield, Leigh, Fev, Broncos. Plus maybe Rochdale, NWC, Doncaster, Cornwall, Workington, Whitehaven, Midlands and possibly others.

 

10x2 would cut a number of those clubs above off, and all the rest in the championship and L1, they might as well fold or go fully amateur.