RL on Channel 4

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, JonM said:

No, they don't. 

The average person in this country hasn't a clue that Wakefield is a smaller place than Warrington. Given Leeds anonymity/ overall low profile relative to just about every other UK city, I'd suggest that most people don't know that Leeds is a pretty big place either. I doubt the average punter knows much about any of our top flight teams or the places they represent. The idea that 60% of the audience for the first game decided not to watch a month later based on who was playing or the size of place they represent is laughable.

We've done this before but it's worth repeating: the vast majority of the country don't really know the geography of the rest of the country.

I wouldn't expect anyone in West Yorkshire to know that Bexhill United v Little Common is a local derby and no one down here will know that Leigh is a small town in Wigan or that Wakefield v Castleford is A Thing. Few will really understand just how hyper-localised the game is within the north, either.

The Prime Minister keeps muddling Bradford and Leeds up by the way. That about sums it up.

[JonM]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

We've done this before but it's worth repeating: the vast majority of the country don't really know the geography of the rest of the country.

Some places have more 'cut through' than others though. Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow - people recognise the accent, might know films or tv shows set there, bands from there, celebrities, well known buildings or landmarks. I suspect the average person might be able to conjure up a reference to the Norfolk Broads, Colmans Mustard, Delia Smith or Alan Partridge if Norwich were mentioned. Leeds has nothing, maybe too wrapped up in a wider Yorkshire identity. Wigan possibly has more national recognition as a place than anywhere else in SL.

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, JonM said:

Some places have more 'cut through' than others though. Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow - people recognise the accent, might know films or tv shows set there, bands from there, celebrities, well known buildings or landmarks. I suspect the average person might be able to conjure up a reference to the Norfolk Broads, Colmans Mustard, Delia Smith or Alan Partridge if Norwich were mentioned. Leeds has nothing, maybe too wrapped up in a wider Yorkshire identity. Wigan possibly has more national recognition as a place than anywhere else in SL.

Leeds has Yorkshire and a Football team - it also has a massive student and finance/legal base. And in the past 20 years has produced household RL names like Sinfield and Burrow where Wigan used to in the late 80s/90s.

People know Leeds is a major UK city in a way that stands out amongst any other RL team.

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, JonM said:

Some places have more 'cut through' than others though. Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow - people recognise the accent, might know films or tv shows set there, bands from there, celebrities, well known buildings or landmarks. I suspect the average person might be able to conjure up a reference to the Norfolk Broads, Colmans Mustard, Delia Smith or Alan Partridge if Norwich were mentioned. Leeds has nothing, maybe too wrapped up in a wider Yorkshire identity. Wigan possibly has more national recognition as a place than anywhere else in SL.

Even that is "to an extent" and context dependent.

For people to know 'Leeds', it really requires Leeds United to be doing well. Which, relative to their recent past, they are - but it'll be flying under the radar of most people.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

People know Leeds is a major UK city

They really don't.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Rugbyleaguesupporter said:

Quite fascinating looking at barb info on who watches tv. 

Doesn't matter lots on one hand as advertising to Sky isn't very important compared to subscriptions, but in short rich people watch rugby union, cricket and F1 while poorer people watch football. 

Most of you will say, surprise, surprise but explains why RL not promoted very heavily, compared to let's say netball. 

Contrary to stereotype, richer people more likely to have Sky and pay Sky more than poorer people. Hence apart from football, Sky will promote f1 and cricket very heavily to boost brand. 

Numbers too small without a barb subscription for rugby to get split between whose watching Euro RU on C4 and whose watching SL on C4, but sadly 400k watching union probably gets more money in for C4 than 600k watching super league 

There's certainly a quality vs quantity argument when it comes to the value of spectators to advertisers and broadcasters.

RL is stuck with the perception (regardless of the reality) of having a CDE audience without the mass popularity and sheer weight of numbers that football has to overcome that.

[EggFace]

On 24/03/2022 at 10:24, Scubby said:

RL is a sport that can hook a load of casual viewers if it doesn't clash with anything. That has always been the case when cup ties got 2-3 million on Grandstand. The game didn't lose those viewers, those viewers over time just had more choice in their leisure time.

The are thousands of things for families to do on a Saturday lunchtime. Even I forgot the game was on and missed the kick off, 12.30pm creeps up on you. It is a pub slot as opposed to a home viewing slot. Saturday lunchtime is the busiest part of the weekend for many. C4 obviously saw an opportunity to boost its viewing figures at the time and it has probably worked. Four in a bed at 1pm probably gets around 50k.

I never understood Saturday afternoon kicks when both the pro game and amateur game played at the same time.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

They really don't.

In the same way they know Newcastle or Birmingham, they do.

[gingerjon]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

In the same way they know Newcastle or Birmingham, they do.

In that they probably recognise the name but have no idea how big the place is, what goes on there, exactly where in the country it is?

[gingerjon]

Newcastle has a smaller population than Wakefield.

The things you find out on wiki.

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Newcastle has a smaller population than Wakefield.

The things you find out on wiki.

Quite

[gingerjon]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Quite

I always forget that it's quite big.

Also that Newcastle is a lot smaller than people seem to think it is.

We seem to have digressed anyway.

My overall view is that rugby league places and teams are so poorly known by the population at large that the presence, or not, of any of them in a single game of irregularly programmed content on Channel 4 will not be the reason for a higher or lower viewing figure.

[RigbyLuger]

23 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Leeds has Yorkshire and a Football team - it also has a massive student and finance/legal base. And in the past 20 years has produced household RL names like Sinfield and Burrow where Wigan used to in the late 80s/90s.

People know Leeds is a major UK city in a way that stands out amongst any other RL team.

Sadly, Sinfield and Burrow are not household names for their rugby careers,.

[theswanmcr]

We are a relatively small sport played professionally at the top level in a very small part of England, with most people in the country having no idea where the clubs are from.

The sooner everyone realises this the better and we can move on and try and do something about it (it that’s what the sport wants).

[Spidey]

32 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I always forget that it's quite big.

Also that Newcastle is a lot smaller than people seem to think it is.

We seem to have digressed anyway.

My overall view is that rugby league places and teams are so poorly known by the population at large that the presence, or not, of any of them in a single game of irregularly programmed content on Channel 4 will not be the reason for a higher or lower viewing figure.

I’ve watched enough House of Games now to know people struggle with geography, even in the UK

[Dave T]

47 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

In that they probably recognise the name but have no idea how big the place is, what goes on there, exactly where in the country it is?

I think this is right. I know Birmingham is a big City, but have been once in my life for cricket and could tell you nothing else about it. 

The likes of Liverpool benefit from the tourism angle, but 'normal' cities like Leeds less so in my experience. 

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

6 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Newcastle has a smaller population than Wakefield.

The things you find out on wiki.

As a bit of a geography freak I found that hard to believe so I checked out Wiki myself. Newcastle's population is three times that of Wakefield, 302,000 v 99,000.

[gingerjon]

11 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

As a bit of a geography freak I found that hard to believe so I checked out Wiki myself. Newcastle's population is three times that of Wakefield, 302,000 v 99,000.

Population for City of Wakefield is 325,837.

Population for area covered by Newcastle City Council is 300,820 (according to them).

It's not a hill I particularly care about, let alone want to die on, but I didn't just make the figures up.

[Barley Mow]

8 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Population for City of Wakefield is 325,837.

Population for area covered by Newcastle City Council is 300,820 (according to them).

It's not a hill I particularly care about, let alone want to die on, but I didn't just make the figures up.

This is a result of local government geography.

The City of Wakefield covers separate towns; Castleford, Pontefract, Featherstone, etc as well as Wakefield and surrounding rural areas. The City of Newcastle doesn't even include a lot of areas that most of us would consider suburbs of Newcastle. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Barley Mow

[theswanmcr]

Here’s a nerdy/stupid one of how a reverse SL (eg southern) would look. How many could pinpoint all these on a map? 

No real Leeds equivalent so thats a bit made-up (bringing Maxwell’s football dream of the Royals finally to life!) but all the rest are within 5k of population of related teams

Reading & Oxford Rhinos

Luton FC

Luton KR

Southend Wolves

Peterborough Giants

Basingstoke Red Devils

Bedford Warriors

Woking Saints

Gillingham Trinity

Newbury Tigers

Edited March 26, 2022 by theswanmcr

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

Which is why we need to get serious about internationals. 

How exactly do you expect that to change things as long as the game remains geographically stunted?  Do you expect the public to overlook that aspect of the game on account of it having more internationals?

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, theswanmcr said:

Here’s a nerdy  one for you to show how a reverse SL (eg southern) would look. How many could pinpoint all these on a map? 

No real Leeds equivalent so thats a bit made-up (bringing Maxwell’s football dream of the Royals to life!) but all the rest are within 5k of population of related teams

Reading & Oxford Rhinos

Luton FC

Luton KR

Southend Wolves

Peterborough Giants

Basingstoke Red Devils

Bedford Warriors

Woking Saints

Gillingham Trinity

Newbury Tigers

How about this for a southern division:

Bristol, 

Gloucester,

Bath,

Worcester,

Northampton, 

Leicester,

A weird High Wycombe/Coventry team

Barnet

Twickenham

Reading/Brentford

You make a pretty good point though. I think you get the "unfashionable" element of many of our current leading clubs/towns. Ultimately we are almost always in places that are cultural followers not leaders, and with globalisation this is increasingly so.

That said, imagine deciding not to support a successful club in a city with a population of 2.7 to 10 million depending on your estimate. RL would be mad!

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

How exactly do you expect that to change things as long as the game remains geographically stunted?  Do you expect the public to overlook that aspect of the game on account of it having more internationals?

People, especially in the UK and even Europe more generally, buy into national teams. Far more so than in your native North America for example.

When we don't have a club as vehicle to sell RL to markets across the UK, the national sides can be that vehicle. Sport is always more engaging for spectators when you have a dog in the fight. Why would someone in Bristol or Birmingham be bothered about Cas Vs Warrington? England vs X gives them at least something they already know and can buy into to latch onto. 

[Big Picture]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

People, especially in the UK and even Europe more generally, buy into national teams. Far more so than in your native North America for example.

When we don't have a club as vehicle to sell RL to markets across the UK, the national sides can be that vehicle. Sport is always more engaging for spectators when you have a dog in the fight. Why would someone in Bristol or Birmingham be bothered about Cas Vs Warrington? England vs X gives them at least something they already know and can buy into to latch onto. 

I'm well aware that the Brummies and Bristolians won't be bothered about Castleford vs Warrington.  England vs X only gives them that momentarily though, the England team doesn't and won't play often enough to build a lot of sustained interest.

[Tommygilf]

37 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

I'm well aware that the Brummies and Bristolians won't be bothered about Castleford vs Warrington.  England vs X only gives them that momentarily though, the England team doesn't and won't play often enough to build a lot of sustained interest.

Which is why the suggestion was for the national side to start playing more regularly. 6 to 10 games a year shouldn't be impossible.