Stadium updates .......

[rockerlad]

41 minutes ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

It's my comments he's quoting. 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but its always good to back up that opinion with a few hard facts, and this and other forums would be very boring if we all agreed with each other, so I'm all for a good debate provided it doesn't get personal. 

The world cup stadium is history now, but I think its unfair just to blame Mark Jenkinson as there was more than him who was against it, just he was more vocal (as usual); but that doesn't escape the fact that the stadium proposal just didn't stand up to financial scrutiny and was unaffordable which would have been passed onto the residents of Allerdale, of whom only 2% of the population would have used the stadium on a regular basis.   

So onto the new proposal, and I'm not too fussed what capacity the new ground is, as whatever we get it'll be better than what's there now and will hopefully see crowds increase for both clubs.

In regards to capacity, well if Town or Reds every get a multimillionaire backer and either club start to sell out the ground on a regular basis, then I'm sure a ground extension would be top of their priority list !

ultimately the people of allerdale rejected that stadium by removing a labour majority from the council. That is a fact. I cant comment on the finances. 

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

51 minutes ago, dkw said:

Why is this a fact?

The estimated costs jumped from £27 million to £32 million before eventually ending up around £90 million or thereabouts and a 30 year lease which jumped to 50 years which had to be serviced, that's before you factor in that nothing was officially agreed (ie in writing) with Sellafield or the hospital/doctors and that both organisations apparently wanted break clauses inserted into the agreement which could have left Allerdale rate payers with a huge debt to service if they invoked the break clause.

The operating costs and crowd projections were totally unrealistic which would have meant the stadium was completely unaffordable for Town and Reds. I can't remember the exact figures now, but it was something like Reds averaging 3500 after 5 years and Town around the 6000 mark, which would never happen.

The stadium rent was 20% of gate receipts, so by the time you take 20% VAT plus another 20% in rent off a ticket price you can see that it would result in greatly reduced income for the clubs, plus they wouldn't have any money from matchday refreshments other than sponsorship as that all went towards the stadium repayments of 100k a year, which is the figure touted based on a 30 year lease BEFORE the Sellafield and NHS builds were added  

But the biggest obstacle was time, and Allerdale didn't allow themselves sufficient time to properly plan and deliver the stadium within a budget as the World Cup deadline was always optimistic, hence the continually moving goal posts in regards to possible tenants and the associated increased costs of the stadium build.

Was this a political argument between labour, conservatives and the independent ...YES of course it was, political gamesmanship was probably at the core of the decision, but that still doesn't get hide the fact that it was unaffordable, and the other councillors have always said they want to see a new stadium for the town, just not one that bankrupts the area ! 

 

[Joe Aitcheson]

8 hours ago, chromedome said:

Yes I do remember squash courts going down first Joe.....the bar, up some steps from Grandstand, had indeed a suspect floor that moved when folk were in there. I always recall painting walls and and furniture of that bar organised by Helen McDowell and co.  It was the night in 1996 when England soccer hammered Holland in the euros of that era, I was a bit miffed ha, ha. Also can't say if it was 'sewers' or 'gas' that the massive tunnel was for? But I can remember looking at cracks in the Grandstand's brickwork in the company of Directors the late Kenny Wilson, and the late John Donovan.

Kenny and John, 2 great servants of the club, mate.

[Derwent Parker]

57 minutes ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

The estimated costs jumped from £27 million to £32 million before eventually ending up around £90 million or thereabouts and a 30 year lease which jumped to 50 years which had to be serviced, that's before you factor in that nothing was officially agreed (ie in writing) with Sellafield or the hospital/doctors and that both organisations apparently wanted break clauses inserted into the agreement which could have left Allerdale rate payers with a huge debt to service if they invoked the break clause.

The operating costs and crowd projections were totally unrealistic which would have meant the stadium was completely unaffordable for Town and Reds. I can't remember the exact figures now, but it was something like Reds averaging 3500 after 5 years and Town around the 6000 mark, which would never happen.

The stadium rent was 20% of gate receipts, so by the time you take 20% VAT plus another 20% in rent off a ticket price you can see that it would result in greatly reduced income for the clubs, plus they wouldn't have any money from matchday refreshments other than sponsorship as that all went towards the stadium repayments of 100k a year, which is the figure touted based on a 30 year lease BEFORE the Sellafield and NHS builds were added  

But the biggest obstacle was time, and Allerdale didn't allow themselves sufficient time to properly plan and deliver the stadium within a budget as the World Cup deadline was always optimistic, hence the continually moving goal posts in regards to possible tenants and the associated increased costs of the stadium build.

Was this a political argument between labour, conservatives and the independent ...YES of course it was, political gamesmanship was probably at the core of the decision, but that still doesn't get hide the fact that it was unaffordable, and the other councillors have always said they want to see a new stadium for the town, just not one that bankrupts the area ! 

I heard most of that at the time - which was Jenkinson and his cronies view of things

I do remember that the finance people in Allerdale disagreeing with these figures at the time. - 

As you say it was a political football - exaggerated to suit

ie

One saying best case and other pointing out worst case scenarios only

[dkw]

Sigh, I'm not going through this again but the majority of the figures you used there to highlight all the negatives were proven to be wrong when Jenkinson used them to push his ###### agenda.

[Derwent Parker]

6 minutes ago, dkw said:

Sigh, I'm not going through this again but the majority of the figures you used there to highlight all the negatives were proven to be wrong when Jenkinson used them to push his ###### agenda.

i agree

[Route66]

6 minutes ago, dkw said:

Sigh, I'm not going through this again but the majority of the figures you used there to highlight all the negatives were proven to be wrong when Jenkinson used them to push his ###### agenda.

My biggest worry with the whole town deal fund money is that once the plans are submitted the government rejects the ideas and we are back to square one, jenkinson is one slippery customer and not to be trusted. As far as I can make out the plans and business case have to be submitted by March so not long to go

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

Well that ships sailed, so let’s hope the new stadium plans will be the right fit both financially and visually to allow both of our local clubs to prosper 

[town4me]

1 hour ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

Well that ships sailed, so let’s hope the new stadium plans will be the right fit both financially and visually to allow both of our local clubs to prosper 

I notice you are always a big contributer to "new stadium" threads but rarely on match/genral town  threads. Don't get me wrong it's a free country but it's just something that stands out 

[Mr Frisky]

1 minute ago, town4me said:

I notice you are always a big contributer to "new stadium" threads but rarely on match/genral town  threads. Don't get me wrong it's a free country but it's just something that stands out 

Because he sells Bricks and tin sheeting for a living.

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

48 minutes ago, town4me said:

I notice you are always a big contributer to "new stadium" threads but rarely on match/genral town  threads. Don't get me wrong it's a free country but it's just something that stands out 

Are you referring to the thread that I started then?

I comment on all kinds of threads across  this forum, not just on the Town page, and only on the ones that interest me.

I hadn’t realised I had to prove my attendance at games before entering this forum 

[The Voodooguru]

2 hours ago, dkw said:

Sigh, I'm not going through this again but the majority of the figures you used there to highlight all the negatives were proven to be wrong when Jenkinson used them to push his ###### agenda.

Yeah that's right. I can remember him being challenged at the time to publish some kind of stress test that he said was used to test the figures. Although he said he would do it he never did, but it didn't matter because he just kept repeating that it it would cost 90 million and that made the headlines and what people believed. I won't break the confidence of someone who told me, but the figures were sound and it was purely a political decision.  Its history now but it seems like a huge opportunity that was missed.

I know I made a joke of Parker and his 8k capacity, but I would rather more money was initially spent if it meant it was a 1st class facility.  I'm sure it isn't beyond the realms of an architect to design a modular type stadium where the foundation is in place and capacity could be increased at minimal cost should one or both of the teams require it. Look at what they did and are repeating at Anfield where they basically build around and above the existing stand. I know its a completely different budget, but the principle where a new stand is extended with a bolt on design must be relatively easy to work out.

[town4me]

3 minutes ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

Are you referring to the thread that I started then?

I comment on all kinds of threads across  this forum, not just on the Town page, and only on the ones that interest me.

I hadn’t realised I had to prove my attendance at games before entering this forum 

You don't have to prove anything to anybody fella. It's a forum for opinions. However it clearly stands out that you post lots of messages and in lengthy detail about a new stadium quoting figures etc. 

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

And your point is …..?

[town4me]

1 minute ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

And your point is …..?

Let's leave it there and not spoil the forum. Great effort by Town against a strong Fev and nothing from you on the reaction thread but when there's a new stadium thread you're writing essays. Just saying. 

[Derwent Parker]

14 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

And your point is …..?

The Reds are doing well

[Derwent Parker]

18 hours ago, The Voodooguru said:

Yeah that's right. I can remember him being challenged at the time to publish some kind of stress test that he said was used to test the figures. Although he said he would do it he never did, but it didn't matter because he just kept repeating that it it would cost 90 million and that made the headlines and what people believed. I won't break the confidence of someone who told me, but the figures were sound and it was purely a political decision.  Its history now but it seems like a huge opportunity that was missed.

I know I made a joke of Parker and his 8k capacity, but I would rather more money was initially spent if it meant it was a 1st class facility.  I'm sure it isn't beyond the realms of an architect to design a modular type stadium where the foundation is in place and capacity could be increased at minimal cost should one or both of the teams require it. Look at what they did and are repeating at Anfield where they basically build around and above the existing stand. I know its a completely different budget, but the principle where a new stand is extended with a bolt on design must be relatively easy to work out.

YES

I  remember him constantly stating it would cost 90M but that was after 50 years.

And the money man at Allerdale countered stating after 50 years it would bring in 136M or 156M cant remember exact quoted figures but it was a huge projected profit not a loss.

[Jacksonville]

On 17/02/2022 at 21:02, Fevrover said:

We ( Fev ) got slated for our pitch against Leigh but MOST pitches have been like it these last two weeks, its February with plenty of bad weather what do they expect ?

What do you think of your stadium? I think it spoiled it with those two stands from Scarborough. A covered terrace down the side would have been better for atmosphere.

[Jacksonville]

On 20/02/2022 at 17:17, Derwent Parker said:

Depends what you build - if you build on all 4 sides and the capacity is 5k then you have to knock something down to build something bigger.

If you build a 2k seat Grandstand on each long side and a 1k terrace on one end then you still have an end to build on,

It will be cheaper to go 8k now than 5k now and in future have to demolish and rebuild a stand which wont happen.

Everything is expensive but in the big picture it wont be that much more to build a 2k seater stand than a 1k stand for example.

Do it right - do it once.

I don't think you need 4,000 seats for Super League. It's no good having 3,500 empty seats every match.

[Fevrover]

30 minutes ago, Jacksonville said:

What do you think of your stadium? I think it spoiled it with those two stands from Scarborough. A covered terrace down the side would have been better for atmosphere.

I think it's great for the size of our town and a LOT OF HARD WORK by volunteers went into dismantling,numbering,transportating and putting them back up at Post Office Road. It's better for away supporters as well in the stand behind the sticks when they prefer to sit and keep dry. It's a shame some other club's don't get their fingers out instead of a spread sheet. Our ground is fine and with improvements to our floodlights and the pitch ( not the only one muddy) we will have a ground to be even prouder of.

[Jacksonville]

40 minutes ago, Fevrover said:

I think it's great for the size of our town and a LOT OF HARD WORK by volunteers went into dismantling,numbering,transportating and putting them back up at Post Office Road. It's better for away supporters as well in the stand behind the sticks when they prefer to sit and keep dry. It's a shame some other club's don't get their fingers out instead of a spread sheet. Our ground is fine and with improvements to our floodlights and the pitch ( not the only one muddy) we will have a ground to be even prouder of.

Thanks. I thought you'd used both stands but l see it's only part of one in the corner.I still think you can't beat a covered terrace, though.

 

[Fevrover]

33 minutes ago, Jacksonville said:

Thanks. I thought you'd used both stands but l see it's only part of one in the corner.I still think you can't beat a covered terrace, though.

 

Be nice if we could cover the Post Office  Road  end but the housing won't allow it.

[Route66]

 Council meeting today, plans might not suit everyone on here

Edited March 1, 2022 by Route66
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[rockerlad]

4 hours ago, Route66 said:

 Council meeting today, plans might not suit everyone on here

no matter what's done, there will always be someone somewhere who's not happy.

[Unicorn 106]

1 hour ago, rockerlad said:

no matter what's done, there will always be someone somewhere who's not happy.

Hope they just get on with it, neither club can afford to keep our dilapidated stadiums fit for purpose. Surely its got to be better than what we've got.