Attendances (Multiple Merged Threads)

[johnh1]

3 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Were they in more of a relegation fight than Wakey, Cas, HKR, Leeds, Huddersfield etc then, in your opinion? Why pick on Salford, none of those other teams I’ve mentioned have been in a GF in the last 3 seasons. 

According to Shropshire Bull, Salford only got to Wembley because it was a ‘bastardised covid Cup competition’. I think we can all draw our own conclusions from that comment of his.

[Eddie]

4 minutes ago, johnh1 said:

According to Shropshire Bull, Salford only got to Wembley because it was a ‘bastardised covid Cup competition’. I think we can all draw our own conclusions from that comment of his.

How about the Grand Final, there must be some obscure reason for that happening too. 

[johnh1]

6 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

You were either incapable of seeing that being prevented from being relegated in 2020 and kneecapping the promoted team in 2021 didnt protect Salford I cant help you. 

The Challenge Cup was bastardised in 2020 as teams withdrew and Salford were originally drawn against St Helens.  

If you want to believe that someone from Shropshire now living in Madrid holds some deep seated agenda against Salford I cant help you.  I'm going to ignore you and watch Dewsbury vs Widnes now. 

Just about says it all really. I don’t want, or need your help thanks very much.

[Maximus Decimus]

I was thinking about the whole Salford at Moor Lane thing, and I remembered another example where the logic of transferring a big crowd into a small stadium came undone (the first being the Ashes tests in 2001). 

In 2004, Wigan got Wire in the Challenge Cup semi-finals. There had been some concern around empty-seats at semi-finals and they controversially decided to host it at the smaller capacity of Widnes to guarantee a sellout. Well they didn't get one, and ended up with around 11,000 for two teams that averaged 23,000 between them.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

Are you sure, do you have access to their finances? If they have some money to spend they’re better off improving a ground that they can call their own and is in a better location than spending it on rent. 

But Salford won’t own Moor Lane and they won’t expand and develop the stadium, they are simply misleading their supporters if they are saying they have such plans 

[Davo5]

4 hours ago, Eddie said:

I’m certain that they would love to get 7-8k every game at the AJ Bell. How do you suggest they do that? 

Not moving to a tin pot stadium made of bolted together isofreights would be a start.

[Eddie]

1 minute ago, Davo5 said:

Not moving to a tin pot stadium made of bolted together isofreights would be a start.

Anything more constructive than that? 

[Davo5]

59 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

You were either incapable of seeing that being prevented from being relegated in 2020 and kneecapping the promoted team in 2021 didnt protect Salford I cant help you. 

The Challenge Cup was bastardised in 2020 as teams withdrew and Salford were originally drawn against St Helens.  

If you want to believe that someone from Shropshire now living in Madrid holds some deep seated agenda against Salford I cant help you.  I'm going to ignore you and watch Dewsbury vs Widnes now. 

Only another few hundred to go & you’ll have the whole forum on ignore.

[Damien]

13 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

I did indeed call Wigan a problem child, I guess that came from them being in the 15k average when I started watching League as a kid early 2000´s (back when I hated Bradford as it turns out, now it´s just sympathy). My fear for Wigan is that it reaches a tipping point where the amount of empty spaces disincentivises people to go.

Wigan weren't getting average attendances of 15k in the early 2000s though. Attendances were much the same then as they were in the last season before Covid struck.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Damien

[Davo5]

15 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Anything more constructive than that? 

I’m not party to their marketing plans or their community work or how they are engaging with the amateur game in the area so can’t really comment but I’m not the one advocating they move to a non league football ground with very little in the way of facilities as their golden ticket to future prosperity.

[JonM]

Monday nights seem to be working out for the Championship clubs in terms of attendances. Over 2500 for Dewsbury v Widnes, if I heard correctly.

[Snowys Backside]

The AJ Bell was a bad move. Cheap ground built on Brownsite nowhere near Salford Really. Its like Leigh moving their ground to Westhoughton on a one road in, one road out basis.

Saying that, 4000 for a game with no away fans and crappy weather tells me they are up for it and good on them, but they should have stuck to their guns and stayed in the City. Moor Lane is only 50% of the answer, but if the ground cannot be developed to at least 8k capacity, I don't see the point in moving.

I used to love going to the Willows watching Leigh play, win lose or draw, but Salford will play some good stuff this year under Paul. Would not surprise me if they shuffle the top 8.

[Maximus Decimus]

9 hours ago, JonM said:

Monday nights seem to be working out for the Championship clubs in terms of attendances. Over 2500 for Dewsbury v Widnes, if I heard correctly.

It seems to be something similar as happened when Sky showed Championship games a few years back and people would turn out because it was their chance on TV.

[JonM]

13 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

It seems to be something similar as happened when Sky showed Championship games a few years back and people would turn out because it was their chance on TV.

Yes, I doubt Dewsbury features on national TV all that often. Widnes being top of the league probably means we take a few hundred more than a couple of years ago.

Still, most people there last night were home fans and the Rams deserve some credit for the work they did to promote the game as an event.

[Maximus Decimus]

1 minute ago, JonM said:

Yes, I doubt Dewsbury features on national TV all that often. Widnes being top of the league probably means we take a few hundred more than a couple of years ago.

Still, most people there last night were home fans and the Rams deserve some credit for the work they did to promote the game as an event.

Definitely, it was a slight shame that most of the crowd seemed to be in darkness but it was a nice tidy ground with a very decent sounding atmosphere.

[Maximus Decimus]

11 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

But Salford won’t own Moor Lane and they won’t expand and develop the stadium, they are simply misleading their supporters if they are saying they have such plans 

Yes. The history of RL ground development, means that one should be very sceptical whenever anybody claims that they will definitely upgrade and improve a stadium. Just ask Wakey and Cas what that looks like.

If there is one upside the the whole AJ Bell thing, is that it was originally going to be a 20,000 stadium. 

[Damien]

9 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Depends on early ish 06-14 Wigan average not below 14k.  Last 2 pre covid years lowest since 2003. 

Just think getting FTA coverage with a audience that skews to a young demo will be huge in building the next generation fanbase for alot of teams. 

Well it doesn't because you said early 2000's. That quite clearly is the first few years of the 2000's, when as I said attendances were much the same as the final year pre Covid. Indeed they were much the same or worse for a good 5 years either side of 2000. Now you are changing that to years up to 2014.

All you are doing is showing how cyclical these things are and indeed disproving your own "fear for Wigan is that it reaches a tipping point where the amount of empty spaces disincentivises people to go". Wigan have been there and indeed in the late 90s had worse attendances, sub 10k averages, and rebounded to highs above what they had in the glory years of the early 90's.

[Maximus Decimus]

14 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well it doesn't because you said early 2000's. That quite clearly is the first few years of the 2000's, when as I said attendances were much the same as the final year pre Covid. Indeed they were much the same or worse for a good 5 years either side of 2000. Now you are changing that to years up to 2014.

All you are doing is showing how cyclical these things are and indeed disproving your own "fear for Wigan is that it reaches a tipping point where the amount of empty spaces disincentivises people to go". Wigan have been there and indeed in the late 90s had worse attendances, sub 10k averages, and rebounded to highs above what they had in the glory years of the early 90's.

A lot is made about empty seats disincentivising people etc and I'll be honest, I've probably subscribed to this idea.

Then I realised that it is very much stadium dependent. Most Widnes games I've ever been to are usually around 25-50% capacity and it really is a non-issue at Widnes. Even 4,000 can come across pretty well in the right circumstances. I've literally never heard talk of the desire to move to a smaller stadium because of the number of empty seats.

[Maximus Decimus]

16 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I dont think it disproves the tipping point at all , merely 11k to 12k isnt it. And on crowds growing again well lets hope so.  

 

Wigan definitely struggled when they first got to the then JJB, and they'd been poor in the last couple of years at Central Park. I'm pretty sure they dropped under 7k for a match against Sheffield or London.

I can remember a feature in RL world where they'd broken their stadium attendance record to get 17k. Averages of 15k were never the norm.

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

A lot is made about empty seats disincentivising people etc and I'll be honest, I've probably subscribed to this idea.

Then I realised that it is very much stadium dependent. Most Widnes games I've ever been to are usually around 25-50% capacity and it really is a non-issue at Widnes. Even 4,000 can come across pretty well in the right circumstances. I've literally never heard talk of the desire to move to a smaller stadium because of the number of empty seats.

The thing these simplistic arguments ignore is that Wigan will never get a 15k average in a 15k stadium. When the club has got averages of 15k or 16k it was because they were getting sell-outs against Saints and 20k crowds against Warrington and near 20k crowds in other games. That offset the 12k or 13k crowds. The biggest dent in averages has been the failure to get the big crowds for the big matches and not get the likes of 19k against Huddersfield with big marketing pushes. I'd say the same probably applies to Leeds too.

[Maximus Decimus]

47 minutes ago, Damien said:

The thing these simplistic arguments ignore is that Wigan will never get a 15k average in a 15k stadium. When the club has got averages of 15k or 16k it was because they were getting sell-outs against Saints and 20k crowds against Warrington and near 20k crowds in other games. That offset the 12k or 13k crowds. The biggest dent in averages has been the failure to get the big crowds for the big matches and not get the likes of 19k against Huddersfield with big marketing pushes. I'd say the same probably applies to Leeds too.

I'd much rather Widnes played in their current stadium, and have the prospect of 10k with Wire or Saints one day in the future, than move to a 5k stadium where we would no doubt see lower crowds than we do now.

DIfferent stadiums are better at dealing with empty seats than others are. At Widnes, we have 2 equally sized main stands with a capacity of 4k each. Apart from if there is a significant away following, both ends are kept shut. Because they always have been, it never feels like huge swatches of the stadium are empty. The two main stands are relatively equally filled and even if only half full, if you're sat in the middle feels like you're in a decent crowd.

The AJ Bell was badly designed IMO. You have the majority of home fans behind the posts, and two stands of completely different sizes. I've been in the biggest stand and it is weird looking out at a small stand that is mostly empty. It also is terrible on TV for this reason. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Maximus Decimus

[Damien]

As an example to what I said previously, in 2019 Wigan got a poor 12,555 against Warrington, 22,050 against Saints and 10,114 against Huddersfield. In 2011 they got 21,056 against Warrington, 24,057 against Saints and 19,169 against Huddersfield. That is a huge difference and has a huge affect if we are talking averages, across 14 games thats probably 1,500 or so off the average right there. We need to get the big crowds back for the big games and events and I don't think Wigan are alone in that. That translates to better atmospheres and must see games that people want to go to, with knock on effects to all the other games.

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I'd much rather Widnes played in their current stadium, and have the prospect of 10k with Wire or Saints one day in the future, than move to a 5k stadium where we would no doubt see lower crowds than we do now.

DIfferent stadiums are better at dealing with empty seats than others are. At Widnes, we have 2 equally sized main stands with a capacity of 4k each. Apart from if there is a significant away following, both ends are kept shut. Because they always have been, it never feels like huge swatches of the stadium are entry. The two main stands are relatively equally filled and even if only half full, if you're sat in the middle feels like you're in a decent crowd.

The AJ Bell was badly designed IMO. You have the majority of home fans behind the posts, and two stands of completely different sizes. I've been in the biggest stand and it is weird looking out at a small stand that is mostly empty. It also is terrible on TV for this reason. 

Yep.

The capacity isn't the issue with the new stadium. I understand the challenges that the club face, and why the fans haven't neccessarily taken to it, the design is awful and it looks terrible on TV, location and facilities etc, have been a challenge, there is a cuckoo in the nest and politically and financially there are challenges - the capacity is miles down the list of issues here. 

Good luck to Salford wherever they end up, the next couple of years could be crucial for the club and its survival.

[Maximus Decimus]

21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yep.

The capacity isn't the issue with the new stadium. I understand the challenges that the club face, and why the fans haven't neccessarily taken to it, the design is awful and it looks terrible on TV, location and facilities etc, have been a challenge, there is a cuckoo in the nest and politically and financially there are challenges - the capacity is miles down the list of issues here. 

Good luck to Salford wherever they end up, the next couple of years could be crucial for the club and its survival.

It's sad because they're pretty much the only example of a club that didn't see a boost from being in a better facility. Many clubs went up by thousands overnight (Wire, Hull, Saints). I remember when they opened the stadium for the first time for a friendly and only got a couple of thousand, thinking that something wasn't right.

[GUBRATS]

57 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I'd much rather Widnes played in their current stadium, and have the prospect of 10k with Wire or Saints one day in the future, than move to a 5k stadium where we would no doubt see lower crowds than we do now.

DIfferent stadiums are better at dealing with empty seats than others are. At Widnes, we have 2 equally sized main stands with a capacity of 4k each. Apart from if there is a significant away following, both ends are kept shut. Because they always have been, it never feels like huge swatches of the stadium are empty. The two main stands are relatively equally filled and even if only half full, if you're sat in the middle feels like you're in a decent crowd.

The AJ Bell was badly designed IMO. You have the majority of home fans behind the posts, and two stands of completely different sizes. I've been in the biggest stand and it is weird looking out at a small stand that is mostly empty. It also is terrible on TV for this reason. 

Always a decent atmosphere at the Halton , but , as you've alluded to , ' a decent away following ' , too many on here right off the away fan argument as purely numbers , it isn't about numbers , it's about creating atmosphere , a decent sized vocal away following ( you tend to sing and support vocally more when away to try to offset the smaller numbers ) energises the home support , quite often I've been to games where the home support have hardly mustered a song all game , this tends to be when there is no away following