Attendances (Multiple Merged Threads)

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

8 hours ago, Ray Cashmere said:

As stated in the Moor Lane thread, if Salford proceed with Moor Lane it will be a minimum 15 year lease with full control over naming rights and sponsorship and full control of all matchday revenues (unless anything has materially changed from the last fans’ forum). 
 

Commercially, that is as good as owning the freehold (if you want to argue that it isn’t I refer you to my posts on the Moor Lane thread). 

So no Salford will not own Moor Lane they will be renting. Salford are not going to take out a 15 year lease on Moor Lane and develop the ground. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

[Eddie]

15 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

So no Salford will not own Moor Lane they will be renting. Salford are not going to take out a 15 year lease on Moor Lane and develop the ground. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

Do you know more about this than everyone else then? How long will the lease be? 

[Eddie]

8 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

 The current ground was built when everyone would own a car.  That world is dead.  If you live in cities only the rich drive.  

What on earth are you on about here mate? That just blatantly isn’t true in any way. 

[Tommygilf]

28 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Do you know more about this than everyone else then? How long will the lease be? 

In fairness they quoted a post stating that the 15 years number came from the Salford fans forum. 

[Eddie]

13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

In fairness they quoted a post stating that the 15 years number came from the Salford fans forum. 

Not even from the club? Oh, I see.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Eddie

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Not even from the club? Oh, I see.

No the fan forum the club held with the fans to discuss the move, so the club yes.

[Eddie]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

No the fan forum the club held with the fans to discuss the move, so the club yes.

Ah right, sorry I thought you meant some fan had posted it on an internet forum

In that case Sir Kev does seem to have some extra info as he says they’re not signing a 15 year lease. Would be interested to know what it is? 

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Ah right, sorry I thought you meant some fan had posted it on an internet forum

In that case Sir Kev does seem to have some extra info as he says they’re not signing a 15 year lease. Would be interested to know what it is? 

Fair enough.

I think you are misreading his point though. He is saying that Salford are unlikely to spend significant sums to renovate the ground if they only have a 15 Year Lease.

[theswanmcr]

12 hours ago, idrewthehaggis said:

Salford centre of attention again.

Keep it going kids!

Said this before, but increasing attendance should be a priority now. 

We need a collective effort to do so. it makes sense.

More punters-more money-less dependence on TV money.

It being RL we will get dinky little half efforts and countless distractors.

Owning your ground is cute, but owning all monies derived from it is cuter. 

The other sensible idea I wished we had done is a Fans Bond scheme.

Did I hear a squeak in the dark corner asking how clubs play for ground improvements?

Well one way are Bonds. Here in Shock City it funded FC United's ground and the Manchester Ship Canal.

Other ways for any budding business students on here. 

Government loans/grants.

Local government loans/grants.

Third sector grants/loans ie Sports England.

Supporter donations.

Club Development Fund

Community Shares

Crowdfunding

Loan stock scheme

Match day pennies in a tub

Increasing your already huge club debt by taking out even more debt Ian.

Private equity.

whip round on the coach home 

Blah, blah. It will be built. 

Yep as expected didn’t take line for the Salford bashing to start on the attendance thread!

Truth is there were 4K in the soulless AJ Bell for the season opener with Toulouse. That’s a really encouraging start after a dreadful last campaign and no away fans. Take away the Hull fans and Wakefield had pretty much the same the other week - but they get a free pass compared to little old Salford.

We all know the ground situation is not good. We all know the AJ Bell is badly designed and in the wrong place. We all know that historically we get low crowds etc etc.

Can we build this year and increase attendances should be the main question on this thread.

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Fair enough.

I think you are misreading his point though. He is saying that Salford are unlikely to spend significant sums to renovate the ground if they only have a 15 Year Lease.

Looking over reports from the end of last year, they will have to spend *some* money (whether that counts as significant or not, who knows) to get the ground up to standard for Super League - and, ironically, some of the work may reduce the capacity a little bit.

[redjonn]

22 minutes ago, theswanmcr said:

Yep as expected didn’t take line for the Salford bashing to start on the attendance thread!

Truth is there were 4K in the soulless AJ Bell for the season opener with Toulouse. That’s a really encouraging start after a dreadful last campaign and no away fans. Take away the Hull fans and Wakefield had pretty much the same the other week - but they get a free pass compared to little old Salford.

We all know the ground situation is not good. We all know the AJ Bell is badly designed and in the wrong place. We all know that historically we get low crowds etc etc.

Can we build this year and increase attendances should be the main question on this thread.

I think your right of course.  Although I think the club (Salford) should also not forget the corporate/hospitality revenue stream.  I'm guessing that the club didn't benefit from such at the AJ Bell but at least the large function room and other plus the good parking if fortunate to be using such gave good corporate and hospitality opportunities. 

 

[Dave T]

35 minutes ago, theswanmcr said:

Yep as expected didn’t take line for the Salford bashing to start on the attendance thread!

Truth is there were 4K in the soulless AJ Bell for the season opener with Toulouse. That’s a really encouraging start after a dreadful last campaign and no away fans. Take away the Hull fans and Wakefield had pretty much the same the other week - but they get a free pass compared to little old Salford.

We all know the ground situation is not good. We all know the AJ Bell is badly designed and in the wrong place. We all know that historically we get low crowds etc etc.

Can we build this year and increase attendances should be the main question on this thread.

Yes, everyone loves Wakefield.

[theswanmcr]

8 minutes ago, redjonn said:

I think your right of course.  Although I think the club (Salford) should also not forget the corporate/hospitality revenue stream.  I'm guessing that the club didn't benefit from such at the AJ Bell but at least the large function room and other plus the good parking if fortunate to be using such gave good corporate and hospitality opportunities. 

 

Good point on corporates - we always played Friday nights at Willows for this. Of course the AJ Bell is good for these facilities and Ray C may have more idea on hospitality revenues

[theswanmcr]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Yes, everyone loves Wakefield.

Is that you’re only take on that? My point was that because Salford have a new stadium - and therefore to some on here they should automatically be a huge success - they get way more attention on attendances than other clubs.

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, theswanmcr said:

Is that you’re only take on that? My point was that because Salford have a new stadium - and therefore to some on here they should automatically be a huge success - they get way more attention on attendances than other clubs.

Oddly, every club's supporters on here seem to think their club gets called out for things far more than every other club.

[redjonn]

7 minutes ago, theswanmcr said:

Good point on corporates - we always played Friday nights at Willows for this. Of course the AJ Bell is good for these facilities and Ray C may have more idea on hospitality revenues

I've been fortunate to use the facilities a number of times. It has always been good experience from arrival/ease of parking, welcome at reception and the dinner, etc.  Better than many others.

Its a good margin if the club is getting the revenue and of course is a more elastic revenue - that is able to more easily increase the cost and hence profit.

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, theswanmcr said:

Is that you’re only take on that? My point was that because Salford have a new stadium - and therefore to some on here they should automatically be a huge success - they get way more attention on attendances than other clubs.

My challenge is that they don't, you are just sensitive to it. 

Attendances are discussed for all clubs, in fact we are discussing this on a 37 page thread called attendances. To suggest that Wakefield get an easy ride is just bang wrong, they get plenty of criticism about their stadium and crowds.

[theswanmcr]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

My challenge is that they don't, you are just sensitive to it. 

Attendances are discussed for all clubs, in fact we are discussing this on a 37 page thread called attendances. To suggest that Wakefield get an easy ride is just bang wrong, they get plenty of criticism about their stadium and crowds.

Yes I probably am more sensitive to it - however Salford’s crowds have always been rubbish compared to the ‘big’ clubs so it’s really nothing new.

One or two criticising Salford for a 4K crowd, and doing a false comparison with Sale’s crowds, is old news. And actually I don’t want to, and shouldn’t have, stuck the boot in on Wakefield either. We need to look at individual club circumstances to see what warrants a good crowd eg Cas did a brilliant job of getting 10k for their opener.

[Maximus Decimus]

17 hours ago, Ray Cashmere said:

‘Likely’?! Please submit your business plan to Paul King as I’m sure he’d love to know how to get 10,000 fans ‘likely’ attending Salford games. 
 

If you want a good-faith discussion on the viability of our various stadium options then please direct this to the Moor Lane thread so as not to pollute the attendances thread further. 
 

However, your obsession with capacity and complete ignorance of geography does not suggest you understand the crux of the discussion amongst Salford fans re AJ Bell/Moor Lane. 
 

I’ll leave it at that 

Salford have 13 games this season. If they average 4,000 that's 52,000 people. If there is an average of 1,000 away fans per game than that leaves 39,000 home supporters across a season. I think it's pretty reasonable as an educated guess to suggest that it is around 10,000 individuals. Regardless, it doesn't really matter whether it's 8,000 or 15,000, my point remains. Asking fans at a fans forum is like taking a poll of fans who go to away games, they are actually only a very specific type of fan and not one that is likely to be crucial when it comes to long-term viability.

As I stated in the previous post, Moor Lane might be the only real option for Salford and if that's the case then so be it, but it doesn't mean that it is likely to work with regards to Salford continuing to be a SL club.

My only real criticism on this thread has been around the logic people use when talking about moving 4,000 fans from a 12,000 stadium into a 5,000 stadium. There is this naive assumption that you can do so without losing any fans in the process. I've demonstrated two concrete examples where this logic was used prior to the event and ended up back-firing. I'd at least like those who have used this argument (and there are many on the Moor Lane thread) to address why they think it has failed in the past, and why they think Moor Lane would be an exception.

Judging by your last line, I assume that your personal judgement is based on a larger number of existing fans being able/willing to attend at Moor Lane in contrast to the idea of transferring the same 4,000 from AJ to Moor Lane. However, even when the much-easier to attend Willows was in existence, attendances were not much better. If the same thing happens with my prior examples, and a move to a 5k stadium actually sees a drop in attendance this could end up being a worse scenario.

[theswanmcr]

1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Salford have 13 games this season. If they average 4,000 that's 52,000 people. If there is an average of 1,000 away fans per game than that leaves 39,000 home supporters across a season. I think it's pretty reasonable as an educated guess to suggest that it is around 10,000 individuals. Regardless, it doesn't really matter whether it's 8,000 or 15,000, my point remains. Asking fans at a fans forum is like taking a poll of fans who go to away games, they are actually only a very specific type of fan and not one that is likely to be crucial when it comes to long-term viability.

As I stated in the previous post, Moor Lane might be the only real option for Salford and if that's the case then so be it, but it doesn't mean that it is likely to work with regards to Salford continuing to be a SL club.

My only real criticism on this thread has been around the logic people use when talking about moving 4,000 fans from a 12,000 stadium into a 5,000 stadium. There is this naive assumption that you can do so without losing any fans in the process. I've demonstrated two concrete examples where this logic was used prior to the event and ended up back-firing. I'd at least like those who have used this argument (and there are many on the Moor Lane thread) to address why they think it has failed in the past, and why they think Moor Lane would be an exception.

Judging by your last line, I assume that your personal judgement is based on a larger number of existing fans being able/willing to attend at Moor Lane in contrast to the idea of transferring the same 4,000 from AJ to Moor Lane. However, even when the much-easier to attend Willows was in existence, attendances were not much better. If the same thing happens with my prior examples, and a move to a 5k stadium actually sees a drop in attendance this could end up being a worse scenario.

We can go round and round on this… and you may have a point about moving crowds to a lower capacity stadium, and the lack of growth opportunities etc, but the truth is this - we may no choice. If we don’t have the crowds to pay the rent then we’re out and need to look elsewhere (or were out of existence)

I think most Salford fans are trying to look on the bright side of an imperfect position. If we get better crowds this year then there is some leverage along with petitions etc to try and stay. If it is a move to Moor Lane then we know it is not big enough and not quite SL standard (8.5k like at York would be perfect) so hoping to look to expand if possible.

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Salford have 13 games this season. If they average 4,000 that's 52,000 people. If there is an average of 1,000 away fans per game than that leaves 39,000 home supporters across a season. I think it's pretty reasonable as an educated guess to suggest that it is around 10,000 individuals. Regardless, it doesn't really matter whether it's 8,000 or 15,000, my point remains. Asking fans at a fans forum is like taking a poll of fans who go to away games, they are actually only a very specific type of fan and not one that is likely to be crucial when it comes to long-term viability.

As I stated in the previous post, Moor Lane might be the only real option for Salford and if that's the case then so be it, but it doesn't mean that it is likely to work with regards to Salford continuing to be a SL club.

My only real criticism on this thread has been around the logic people use when talking about moving 4,000 fans from a 12,000 stadium into a 5,000 stadium. There is this naive assumption that you can do so without losing any fans in the process. I've demonstrated two concrete examples where this logic was used prior to the event and ended up back-firing. I'd at least like those who have used this argument (and there are many on the Moor Lane thread) to address why they think it has failed in the past, and why they think Moor Lane would be an exception.

Judging by your last line, I assume that your personal judgement is based on a larger number of existing fans being able/willing to attend at Moor Lane in contrast to the idea of transferring the same 4,000 from AJ to Moor Lane. However, even when the much-easier to attend Willows was in existence, attendances were not much better. If the same thing happens with my prior examples, and a move to a 5k stadium actually sees a drop in attendance this could end up being a worse scenario.

I understand your concerns but the Ashes analogy that you used isn’t appropriate. People going to the Ashes will travel long distances and many will want to go to big events in big stadiums. We know that many Salford fans think the stadium is in a rubbish location plus is a rubbish fan experience and don’t go for those reasons, so a stadium in a better location isn’t necessarily going to get lower crowds, even if it is smaller. 

[Maximus Decimus]

3 hours ago, Eddie said:

I understand your concerns but the Ashes analogy that you used isn’t appropriate. People going to the Ashes will travel long distances and many will want to go to big events in big stadiums. We know that many Salford fans think the stadium is in a rubbish location plus is a rubbish fan experience and don’t go for those reasons, so a stadium in a better location isn’t necessarily going to get lower crowds, even if it is smaller. 

They also did the same with the CC semi-final with two teams that were very local to Widnes which is an event largely attended by supporters. There was something about the fact that the event wasn't going to be in as big a stadium (not even a particularly impressive one) that really put a large number of fans off attending. It was controversial at the time and I'm sure that controversy and seeming lack of ambition, meant a number decided against it.

The fact that the AJ is a rubbish experience is a good point, but if/when the move is announced it might be similarly controversial as it would be seen as signifying a lack of ambition and even an admittance of decline. A number of diehard regular attendees might be all up for it, but the less regular fans might decide they're not going to bother. I hope not, I genuinely hope it works out and I'm wrong but my gut (from a lifetime of following RL!) says that it will likely result in even fewer fans and then Salford will have backed themselves into a corner.

As has been pointed out many times though, the long-term damage was essentially done when the AJ Bell move was botched and they might have no option but to try Moor Lane to survive as a club full stop. Whether that will be as a SL club is the real question.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Maximus Decimus

[Josef K]

This is my guess at the SL’s attendances for this week. 

Leeds/Catalans 9700

Wigan/Huddersfield 9,500

HKR/Cas 7,200

Saints/Wakey 8,900

Hull/Salford 11,000

Toulouse/wire 4,800

[Josef K]

I apologise if this has been mentioned before, but why are Wigan playing tonight if they are not on Sky. 

[gingerjon]

5 hours ago, Josef K said:

I apologise if this has been mentioned before, but why are Wigan playing tonight if they are not on Sky. 

Presumably because Wigan Athletic are home on Saturday.