Attendances (Multiple Merged Threads)

[Cameron Highlander]

2 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Yup, spot on, it’s played out exactly as we predicted. Where’s Man of Kent? 

Counting empty seats and cardboard cut-outs at Lamport Stadium......

[langpark]

4 hours ago, theswanmcr said:

God the RFL get it in the neck with everything. They’ve tried to be the neutral ref here and appease both clubs (who couldn’t agree between them), while also trying to incentivise crowd numbers. You’re criticising them for setting a reduced price, others will criticise them for not insisting on the cheapest. They really can’t win here.

You must be new around here

Edited April 8, 2022 by langpark

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

9 hours ago, meast said:

RFL who set the £18 price.

Ticket sales apparently not good.

 

7 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Sad reflection on our game when folks are put off by 18quid admission price for QF of our world famous Cup competition.

 

Problem is once teams do discounted prices for the cup it becomes expected/the norm. We are now in a downward spiral for cup prices . . . well done RFL. 

The cup needs to move to a group format, where tickets for home games can be sold as part of the season ticket. Attendances have being atrocious and declining for a long time. Move to 4 groups of 5 teams, the winner of each group progresses to the Semi Final of the Cup.

[Saint Toppy]

11 hours ago, M j M said:

They managed it literally six days ago.

Ah but you can't count that, Its Saints who always bring a good away following, so it obviously skews the attendance figures 

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

 

The cup needs to move to a group format, where tickets for home games can be sold as part of the season ticket. Attendances have being atrocious and declining for a long time. Move to 4 groups of 5 teams, the winner of each group progresses to the Semi Final of the Cup.

A group system would be no more attractive than knock out, less so in fact. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

15 minutes ago, Eddie said:

A group system would be no more attractive than knock out, less so in fact. 

If the games are included in season ticket sales, which could be sold at a higher price as they’d include more home games, attendances would match Super League games attendances. Something needs to change, cup attendances are absolutely shocking, the alternative is to scrap the cup completely imo. 

[Eddie]

17 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

If the games are included in season ticket sales, which could be sold at a higher price as they’d include more home games, attendances would match Super League games attendances. Something needs to change, cup attendances are absolutely shocking, the alternative is to scrap the cup completely imo. 

The cup final is great, it would be ridiculous to scrap it. 
 

Anyway if role don’t want to go to the cup games why would they pay more for a season ticket that included cup games? The cup would be made more attractive if we had a 14 or even 16 team SL and no loop fixtures. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Eddie

[Tommygilf]

46 minutes ago, Eddie said:

The cup final is great, it would be ridiculous to scrap it. 
 

Anyway if role don’t want to go to the cup games why would they pay more for a season ticket that included cup games? The cup would be made more attractive if we had a 14 or even 16 team SL and no loop fixtures. 

They pay for loop fixtures currently tbf. Cup Group games would at least present a different competition.

[Eddie]

41 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They pay for loop fixtures currently tbf. Cup Group games would at least present a different competition.

They would but clearly, as the shockingly low Warrington v Wakefield cup attendance indicated, people are bored of seeing the same teams all the time. I can’t see that changing until there are a couple more teams in SL, or preferably four more.

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

They would but clearly, as the shockingly low Warrington v Wakefield cup attendance indicated, people are bored of seeing the same teams all the time. I can’t see that changing until there are a couple more teams in SL, or preferably four more.

True, but that was still a significantly lower crowd than they would get for a loop fixture of the same game.

I've said before (and I'm by no means the first, credit to @Dave T) that ticket buying habits are one of the main factors in affecting crowds here.

One off purchases have to be "worth it", right now the earlier rounds of the cup aren't generally that. Including guaranteed home games in the cup that can be sold in season tickets, either through group fixtures, home and away legs for certain rounds, or otherwise, seems a logical commercial decision based on that.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Tommygilf

[Leyther_Matt]

50 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

True, but that was still a significantly lower crowd than they would get for a loop fixture of the same game.

I've said before (and I'm by no means the first, credit to @Dave T) that ticket buying habits are one of the main factors in affecting crowds here.

One off purchases have to be "worth it", right now the earlier rounds of the cup aren't generally that. Including guaranteed home games in the cup that can be sold in season tickets, either through group fixtures, home and away legs for certain rounds, or otherwise, seems a logical commercial decision based on that.

I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s the buying process, but more a rugby/life balance if such a thing exists. Fans will get their calendar for a year and set aside a minimum of 13 weekends (more if they go to away games too), setting aside the full weekend to allow for the full weekend to cover for TV switches.

There are only so many shift swaps, family favours and the like that people can get away with, and so only knowing a fortnight before (or less in most cases this season) when or where a game is going to take place is a big ask for so many people. Yes, I think there is a financial aspect too - £50+ generally for two adults and two kids just for tickets before you even get to fuel/food - but the unreliable scheduling certainly can’t be overlooked either.

[dkw]

12 hours ago, theswanmcr said:

God the RFL get it in the neck with everything. They’ve tried to be the neutral ref here and appease both clubs (who couldn’t agree between them), while also trying to incentivise crowd numbers. You’re criticising them for setting a reduced price, others will criticise them for not insisting on the cheapest. They really can’t win here.

His post summed up many RL fans attitude unfortunately, it really is boring seeing them just blame the authorities for every little thing.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Leyther_Matt said:

I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s the buying process, but more a rugby/life balance if such a thing exists. Fans will get their calendar for a year and set aside a minimum of 13 weekends (more if they go to away games too), setting aside the full weekend to allow for the full weekend to cover for TV switches.

There are only so many shift swaps, family favours and the like that people can get away with, and so only knowing a fortnight before (or less in most cases this season) when or where a game is going to take place is a big ask for so many people. Yes, I think there is a financial aspect too - £50+ generally for two adults and two kids just for tickets before you even get to fuel/food - but the unreliable scheduling certainly can’t be overlooked either.

That is true, yet football clubs who play 23+ home fixtures a year don’t struggle to get crowds in. I know football and RL aren’t comparable in most respects but the time taken to go to a game is. 

[whatmichaelsays]

3 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

If the games are included in season ticket sales, which could be sold at a higher price as they’d include more home games, attendances would match Super League games attendances. Something needs to change, cup attendances are absolutely shocking, the alternative is to scrap the cup completely imo. 

If we're just bundling in the CC cup with season tickets, what's the point (commercially at least) in playing it in the first place? 

Surely the aim should to be to make the cup something that people want to pay for? 

[theswanmcr]

31 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

If we're just bundling in the CC cup with season tickets, what's the point (commercially at least) in playing it in the first place? 

Surely the aim should to be to make the cup something that people want to pay for? 

A season ticket isn’t really a season ticket currently though… it is in effect a League Match Ticket Book (LMTB as old Man United fans will remember).

You could include it with some clever pricing/marketing to make it feel like you are getting ‘free’ entry to all cup games as a bonus. Ideally though you need cross club agreement and losing league  loop fixtures.

Maybe you pay for two CC games and you could use these home or away? Anyone who uses at least one of those tickets gets half-price for Semi-Final - use both and you get a free ticket? Loads of ways you could try new ideas.

 

[Leyther_Matt]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

That is true, yet football clubs who play 23+ home fixtures a year don’t struggle to get crowds in. I know football and RL aren’t comparable in most respects but the time taken to go to a game is. 

But, by an large, those 23+ home fixtures are set in stone from up to 7 months beforehand so you have time to work around those rather than specifically the cup games being discussed that can be 10 days notice or less. There’s also less of a pressure, conceived or other, to commit every week and do every game when compared to RL.

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

If we're just bundling in the CC cup with season tickets, what's the point (commercially at least) in playing it in the first place? 

Surely the aim should to be to make the cup something that people want to pay for? 

People (not enough I know) seem to be willing for the very latter stages, at least the Final and SF. We'll see how the QFs do this weekend.

I think more people would take paying in advance for a game included in Season tickets, than would buy a one off cup game. It would remove that hurdle of paying for one off games that most currently don't do. 

[whatmichaelsays]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

People (not enough I know) seem to be willing for the very latter stages, at least the Final and SF. We'll see how the QFs do this weekend.

I think more people would take paying in advance for a game included in Season tickets, than would buy a one off cup game. It would remove that hurdle of paying for one off games that most currently don't do. 

But is that a failure of pricing, or is it a failure of product, positioning or promotion? It's most likely a combination of all four. 

I understand the argument that if the CC was bundled in to the season ticket, crowds would be stronger, but that certainly doesn't mean that the cup is more appealing or commercially viable. 

Including the cup into season tickets just seems like we're relying on inertia and apathy to make the cup feel more popular, rather than actually making the product on offer more valuable (whether in real terms or perception terms). That's not really a great strategy for any business, let alone one in the leisure and entertainment industry. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by whatmichaelsays

[whatmichaelsays]

5 hours ago, theswanmcr said:

A season ticket isn’t really a season ticket currently though… it is in effect a League Match Ticket Book (LMTB as old Man United fans will remember).

You could include it with some clever pricing/marketing to make it feel like you are getting ‘free’ entry to all cup games as a bonus. Ideally though you need cross club agreement and losing league  loop fixtures.

Maybe you pay for two CC games and you could use these home or away? Anyone who uses at least one of those tickets gets half-price for Semi-Final - use both and you get a free ticket? Loads of ways you could try new ideas.

 

I think the issue here is that RL hasn't really adapted to reflect modern ticket buying habits. The clubs rely so heavily on a captive market that pays up front, struggles to appeal to more casual ticket buyers who might buy on a match-by-match basis and don't really want the commitment of a full season (and when you consider that it's now so easy to 'unbundle' so many other package deals - mobile phones, TV/Netflix, holidays, etc, that's a growing segment of society). Then, when we have "all pay" games, we struggle. 

The play-offs have the same problem. Why is it that fans of the so-called "the greatest game" are so unwilling to pay to watch the climax of the season amongst the best teams still standing? Is it that they don't want to, is it that the offer isn't good enough, or are we selling to people who can't buy it? Whatever it is, bundling in tickets to the season ticket just masks the real problem - the RL product isn't attracting people outside that core group, and that core group arguably bored and/or tired of being asked to buy a lot of RL that, in many cases, all looks exactly the same. 

If we're just going to start bundling in the cup, play-offs and anything else into one "all inclusive" subscription, is there really any point in having the cup and play-offs at all, aside from the two showpiece events? 

[meast]

22 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Sad reflection on our game when folks are put off by 18quid admission price for QF of our world famous Cup competition.

 

Problem is once teams do discounted prices for the cup it becomes expected/the norm. We are now in a downward spiral for cup prices . . . well done RFL. 

The game is in a bit of a rut really, fans are so used to just paying for a season ticket and are reluctant and loathe to pay for anything else.

Without wanting to cheapen the game even more, we need to find a way to include cup and play off games in these season tickets.

I actually spoke to some Giants fans who when they found out the price said "F-that"!

An idea I thought of was that a season ticket couod be used for cup games if that ticket hasn't already been used for a league match, I've missed 2 league games already this year due to other commitments, so why not use my season ticket for a cup game instead?

I realise of course that gates and takings are split 3 ways so the Giants don't gain much, but could be worth looking at?

Edited April 8, 2022 by meast

[whatmichaelsays]

39 minutes ago, meast said:

The game is in a bit of a rut really, fans are so used to just paying for a season ticket and are reluctant and loathe to pay for anything else.

Without wanting to cheapen the game even more, we need to find a way to include cup and play off games in these season tickets.

I actually spoke to some Giants fans who when they found out the price said "F-that"!

An idea I thought of was that a season ticket couod be used for cup games if that ticket hasn't already been used for a league match, I've missed 2 league games already this year due to other commitments, so why not use my season ticket for a cup game instead?

I realise of course that gates and takings are split 3 ways so the Giants don't gain much, but could be worth looking at?

But isn't the more important thing to understand why, when it comes to the cup and play-off games, people's reaction to being asked to pay £18 is "f--- that"? In the wider context of sports tickets and even tickets to other forms of entertainment, is £18 that outlandish?

If the product on offer isn't worth £18, surely that's the issue to fix? Rather than trying to find ways to work a product that people don't feel has value into yet another bundle of tickets? 

And it's not as if RL is the only sport that has a largely working class audience. The difference is that other sports have found ways to engage other audiences in addition to that working class core - something that RL seems particularly bad at. 

[GUBRATS]

Bottom line is a SL fan needs about £70 to watch their team progress to the CC final if they get 2 home ties and a semi final , I'd guess some will spend more than that on beer at the final ( given its 9 quid a pint ) , it really shouldn't be an issue 

[Tommygilf]

What was the attendance at KR last night?

[Tommygilf]

15 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

But is that a failure of pricing, or is it a failure of product, positioning or promotion? It's most likely a combination of all four. 

I understand the argument that if the CC was bundled in to the season ticket, crowds would be stronger, but that certainly doesn't mean that the cup is more appealing or commercially viable. 

Including the cup into season tickets just seems like we're relying on inertia and apathy to make the cup feel more popular, rather than actually making the product on offer more valuable (whether in real terms or perception terms). That's not really a great strategy for any business, let alone one in the leisure and entertainment industry. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with accepting that the early rounds of the cup aren't that attractive for one off purchases for many fans. We have literally decades of evidence for this and it isn't a phenomenon unique to RL either. Though, of course it has fundamental RL problems on top of that, fundamentally being that demand isn't outstripping supply.

The culture of the majority of ticket purchasing in RL, for everything but the finals and games at neutral stadiums, is to have a lump sum written off prior to the season starting. There simply isn't the demand beyond that to justify the expenditure for many fans. 

I think the benefits of presenting a least a more vibrant and well attended cup outweigh the negatives of relying on inertia and commercial value etc. I think that is idealism taken too far. The sport (clubs) needs to focus on increasing demand for every game and event of course.

[redjonn]

mmm so may aspects to consider with regard attendances, especially he Challenge Cup.

For us, well my wife, the product offering has got to overcome the inertia or reluctance to make the effort. For example we are fortunate in that often offered free invites to away games by business colleagues.  Yet often my wife will give reasons why she won't, these include depending upon ground:

Travel,  Parking, facilities not least the toilets, fans unfriendly attitude towards noticing we are away fans (this is normally drunken and incudes swearing sometimes leading to threatening behaviour which happens at all grounds - note its normally drunken women) but nowt to do with the offering on the field.

Now my wife is from inner Liverpool as in Liverpool 8 nowadays known as Toxteth when it was a particular rough place to live so she is no shrinking violet.

So basically its the overall product of which at most ground (not all) doesn't lend itself to overcoming the inertia/reluctance of years of  poor experience.