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Attendances (Multiple Merged Threads)


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6 minutes ago, redjonn said:

mmm so may aspects to consider with regard attendances, especially he Challenge Cup.

For us, well my wife, the product offering has got to overcome the inertia or reluctance to make the effort. For example we are fortunate in that often offered free invites to away games by business colleagues.  Yet often my wife will give reasons why she won't, these include depending upon ground:

Travel,  Parking, facilities not least the toilets, fans unfriendly attitude towards noticing we are away fans (this is normally drunken and incudes swearing sometimes leading to threatening behaviour which happens at all grounds - note its normally drunken women) but nowt to do with the offering on the field.

Now my wife is from inner Liverpool as in Liverpool 8 nowadays known as Toxteth when it was a particular rough place to live so she is no shrinking violet.

So basically its the overall product of which at most ground (not all) doesn't lend itself to overcoming the inertia/reluctance of years of  poor experience. 

 

Away fans don't count 😉, it's up to the home club to fill it's stadium 👍

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On 08/04/2022 at 19:12, whatmichaelsays said:

I think the issue here is that RL hasn't really adapted to reflect modern ticket buying habits. The clubs rely so heavily on a captive market that pays up front, struggles to appeal to more casual ticket buyers who might buy on a match-by-match basis and don't really want the commitment of a full season (and when you consider that it's now so easy to 'unbundle' so many other package deals - mobile phones, TV/Netflix, holidays, etc, that's a growing segment of society). Then, when we have "all pay" games, we struggle. 

The play-offs have the same problem. Why is it that fans of the so-called "the greatest game" are so unwilling to pay to watch the climax of the season amongst the best teams still standing? Is it that they don't want to, is it that the offer isn't good enough, or are we selling to people who can't buy it? Whatever it is, bundling in tickets to the season ticket just masks the real problem - the RL product isn't attracting people outside that core group, and that core group arguably bored and/or tired of being asked to buy a lot of RL that, in many cases, all looks exactly the same. 

If we're just going to start bundling in the cup, play-offs and anything else into one "all inclusive" subscription, is there really any point in having the cup and play-offs at all, aside from the two showpiece events? 

I take on board all of your points, but subscription models are here, and valid. 

I made the point earlier that Netflix don't charge you more for a big premiere. 

We have made it more expensive for these games (they used to be included or heavily subsidised) and made it easier to sit at home and watch on TV, with more games than ever being shown. 

Wire get more vs Wakefield in the league than they do versus Wigan in the Cup. That isn't because the Wakefield game is the more attractive event. 

We can't ignore what is happening in front of us. We have spent decades building up a fan base on subscription models (season tickets spread over direct debits or bought for Christmas) and then we act surprised when those same fans watch on TV instead of getting their wallet out again for a game. 

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On 09/04/2022 at 10:29, Tommygilf said:

What was the attendance at KR last night?

7,000, and to be fair to Cas they brought a decent number over - especially given it was Friday. When you look at Rovers long-term crowd trends that’s genuinely a great audience, and with the atmosphere, product and as a cherry on top the result I think any new people will have been impressed. 

 

Of the 4 P’s referenced above the issue isn’t really price, as Rovers have shown, it’s the games lack of desire (and inability) to sell itself…

 

As a starting point a optimistic tone of communication is needed, as we’re finding, and people will buy in. That’s the positioning bit. Bolt onto that greater thought into how to then market unique aspects of specific events, and you can build an audience. That’s the promotion bit.
 

We have the subject the wrong way around. The Cup offers an opportunity to bring new people into the game, using different stories, to create new prospects we can then try and add to the long-term membership pool afterwards. We should look at it through this lense as an opportunity, not a challenge. A 7,000 crowd with 1,000 new “samplers” is much more valuable to the club in the medium term than an 8,000 crowd made up of members and regular on-the-gate payers. Things like the Challenge Cup, or Channel 4 being in town, or A, B or C other “special” factor are crucial moments in the season for clubs to take advantage of, not for them to fear. 

Apparently this site says I "won the day" here on 23rd Jan, 19th Jan, 9th Jan also 13th December, whatever any of that means. Anyway, 4 times in a few weeks? The forum must be going to the dogs - you people need to seriously up your game. Where's Dutoni when you need him?

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47 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

7,000, and to be fair to Cas they brought a decent number over - especially given it was Friday. When you look at Rovers long-term crowd trends that’s genuinely a great audience, and with the atmosphere, product and as a cherry on top the result I think any new people will have been impressed. 

 

Of the 4 P’s referenced above the issue isn’t really price, as Rovers have shown, it’s the games lack of desire (and inability) to sell itself…

 

As a starting point a optimistic tone of communication is needed, as we’re finding, and people will buy in. That’s the positioning bit. Bolt onto that greater thought into how to then market unique aspects of specific events, and you can build an audience. That’s the promotion bit.
 

We have the subject the wrong way around. The Cup offers an opportunity to bring new people into the game, using different stories, to create new prospects we can then try and add to the long-term membership pool afterwards. We should look at it through this lense as an opportunity, not a challenge. A 7,000 crowd with 1,000 new “samplers” is much more valuable to the club in the medium term than an 8,000 crowd made up of members and regular on-the-gate payers. Things like the Challenge Cup, or Channel 4 being in town, or A, B or C other “special” factor are crucial moments in the season for clubs to take advantage of, not for them to fear. 

I agree with the general principle of your post, but I think there are too many Hollow points and soundbites in it. 

Let's say Wire went all out and attractes 2k brand new fans to that last cup game vs Wakey. Our crowd would have been 4.5k and they'd have been massively underwhelmed. 

Now had we included it for members, we'd have had 7 or 8k standard plus 2k new fans making a decent event. 

Getting a good cup crowd on optimism and playing well is good, but not everyone can be in that position. 

We have a well established sales process and window where we make the majority of our sales. At Warrington we have probably sold 78k match tickets for the year out of our total expected crowd of 100-130k for the year before the season starts. 

I don't know why we make it hard for ourselves and try and sell thousands of tickets for games at short notice that are on TV. 

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4 minutes ago, fevtom said:

1473 announced for Cornwall. Didn’t think it would be quite that high from watching the stream but never the less there were clearly plenty of people there enjoying the game.

That's great.

They did remember to remove the union crowd calculator algorithm from the gate before counting didn't they?! 😂

Edited by Barley Mow
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47 minutes ago, fevtom said:

1473 announced for Cornwall. Didn’t think it would be quite that high from watching the stream but never the less there were clearly plenty of people there enjoying the game.

I know the Memorial Ground well and (honestly) guessed there were about 1300/1400 in. As it goes, the grass bank below the camera is one of the best places to watch from, and there were plenty there 

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4 minutes ago, ChristianB said:

I know the Memorial Ground well and (honestly) guessed there were about 1300/1400 in. As it goes, the grass bank below the camera is one of the best places to watch from, and there were plenty there 

Hopefully a lot of them will come back for the next game. I expect the numbers might drop off a little now that the first games out of the way but even if half come back that’ll make them one of the best supported teams in the league.

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Cats v Saints.  8624

Hudds v Hull.   3637

Hull KR v Cas.  not given

Wakefield v Wigan.  3756

................

Sheffield v Whitehaven.    150

.............

Bradford v Barrow.     3258

....................

Newcastle v Widnes.       1835

..............

Cornwall v Midlands.        1473

Doncaster v Swinton.       1015

London Skolars v North Wales.      186

Oldham v West Wales.     651

Rochdale v Hunslet      415

 

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10 minutes ago, johnh1 said:

Cats v Saints.  8624

Hudds v Hull.   3637

Hull KR v Cas.  not given

Wakefield v Wigan.  3756

................

Sheffield v Whitehaven.    150

.............

Bradford v Barrow.     3258

....................

Newcastle v Widnes.       1835

..............

Cornwall v Midlands.        1473

Doncaster v Swinton.       1015

London Skolars v North Wales.      186

Oldham v West Wales.     651

Rochdale v Hunslet      415

 

I would love to know how Doncaster arrived at that figure because there wasn't anywhere near that many people in the ground today. Makes you wonder how accurate any of the numbers given actually are.

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5 hours ago, Dave T said:

I agree with the general principle of your post, but I think there are too many Hollow points and soundbites in it. 

Let's say Wire went all out and attractes 2k brand new fans to that last cup game vs Wakey. Our crowd would have been 4.5k and they'd have been massively underwhelmed. 

Now had we included it for members, we'd have had 7 or 8k standard plus 2k new fans making a decent event. 

Getting a good cup crowd on optimism and playing well is good, but not everyone can be in that position. 

We have a well established sales process and window where we make the majority of our sales. At Warrington we have probably sold 78k match tickets for the year out of our total expected crowd of 100-130k for the year before the season starts. 

I don't know why we make it hard for ourselves and try and sell thousands of tickets for games at short notice that are on TV. 

No soundbites, I mean everything I say and do this for a living - maybe just simplified it for this forum, my bad if so. 

 

Subscription revenues, which is what memberships are, are the gold standard unit of sale and where you want to nudge all buyers eventually. But they’re not what people first purchase, all new customers for us will start as single games, aside from some existing members’ kids I guess. So they’re not a single panacea if we are to grow audience.
 

They’re just a discounted bundle eh, with unit price exchanged for certainty (and advancing cash flow). You can choose what to put in the bundle, sure. That could include cup games, I’m indifferent to that in theory. But just a couple of thoughts on why you may not: 1) you’re not guaranteed a home cup game so don’t know what size your bundle is, that’s a harder product to communicate; 2) your need to admit you’re choosing to put more product in your bundle for a lower (per unit) fee, surrendering the ability to sell that once-separate product to the same person on top of a bundle (when they’re already showing you they’re happy to buy without it included). We want these top-up revenues.
 

Members are already incentivised to attend cup games through priority sales windows, discounting, bring-a-friend cheap ticket offers and the like. We don’t “make it hard for ourselves”. For the Hull KR match, I had to press 3 clicks on my smartphone app to pay & add the match to my membership QR code. If I can leave my house to go to the game, I can do that… if the idea of leaving my house to attend is sold to me. 


Rather than give more price away, we should focus on working harder to get more to buy the cup match add-on like this (loads more we could do here), to provide extra revenue not give it away, and at the same time see the positive opportunity of a different, storied event in order to promote these to new fans as well. 
 

My guess is clubs front office operations have become very effective at building subscription sales strategies over the last 10 years, which was an important shift the sport needed to make, but alongside this they’ve lost some capability in the different facets required for spot event marketing. It’s a different strategy, requiring different tactics and team skill sets. Being better at both is best, that’s what I’d push for. 

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Apparently this site says I "won the day" here on 23rd Jan, 19th Jan, 9th Jan also 13th December, whatever any of that means. Anyway, 4 times in a few weeks? The forum must be going to the dogs - you people need to seriously up your game. Where's Dutoni when you need him?

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A true test as to why the CC attendances are down would be try different things to see what would entice people. Better still, ask them.

Cost: Would a much lower ticket price have fans coming out in large numbers? 
Attitude: Have fans got into the habit of not going to cup games for cost or other reasons and found TV a fine alternative? 
The product: Is the league the main focus and cup not so relevant, fans not too fussed about it anymore. 
 

Once reason(s) are found, solutions can be explored. Have any fan surveys been done on the CC? If RL keeps blindly doing the same thing, they will keep getting the same result or worse.

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It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

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8 hours ago, johnh1 said:

Cats v Saints.  8624

Hudds v Hull.   3637

Hull KR v Cas.  not given

Wakefield v Wigan.  3756

................

Sheffield v Whitehaven.    150

.............

Bradford v Barrow.     3258

....................

Newcastle v Widnes.       1835

..............

Cornwall v Midlands.        1473

Doncaster v Swinton.       1015

London Skolars v North Wales.      186

Oldham v West Wales.     651

Rochdale v Hunslet      415

 

What on earth is going on with Rochdale. 

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8 hours ago, johnh1 said:

Cats v Saints.  8624

Hudds v Hull.   3637

Hull KR v Cas.  not given

Wakefield v Wigan.  3756

................

Sheffield v Whitehaven.    150

.............

Bradford v Barrow.     3258

....................

Newcastle v Widnes.       1835

..............

Cornwall v Midlands.        1473

Doncaster v Swinton.       1015

London Skolars v North Wales.      186

Oldham v West Wales.     651

Rochdale v Hunslet      415

 

Some shocking figures from Huddersfield and Wakefield for a big cup game. Anyone who thinks the cup should continue in the same format needs to give their head a wobble. Move to groups, with home games included in season tickets just as Super League games are. 

Cornwall have made a fantastic start.

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22 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Some shocking figures from Huddersfield and Wakefield for a big cup game. Anyone who thinks the cup should continue in the same format needs to give their head a wobble. Move to groups, with home games included in season tickets just as Super League games are. 

Cornwall have made a fantastic start.

Would season ticket prices go up under your plan, or remain as they are? 

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37 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

The more you look at numbers for Rochdale and Oldham the more suicidal the RFL's decision not to allow a club in central manchester becomes. 

Anytime Oldham go up they have to leave Oldham, Dale really struggling . Just who is the RFL protecting here? 

I think Rochdale’s low attendances (compared to the last few seasons) are something to do with a dispute with the football club meaning a massively reduced capacity; but I’m sure someone in the know can elaborate. It’s a shame as I thought Mazey & Co were really going to turn the club around. 

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29 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

The more you look at numbers for Rochdale and Oldham the more suicidal the RFL's decision not to allow a club in central manchester becomes. 

Anytime Oldham go up they have to leave Oldham, Dale really struggling . Just who is the RFL protecting here? 

Four club's encircle Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford and Swinton wherever they happen to be playing, another club in central Manchester would not do anything to raise the profile of Rugby League in that city, football has to big a hold for the city and surrounding area, even in Leigh 11 miles west go into a pub when football is broadcast and the pubs are packed, there is not that much interest even if it is the CC or GF when RL is on.

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9 hours ago, Colin James said:

I would love to know how Doncaster arrived at that figure because there wasn't anywhere near that many people in the ground today. Makes you wonder how accurate any of the numbers given actually are.

I can understand reducing the figure because they would have to pay revenue on the sales received, why would they increase the figure?

Unless of course a lot if season ticket holders didn't show.

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1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

The more you look at numbers for Rochdale and Oldham the more suicidal the RFL's decision not to allow a club in central manchester becomes. 

Anytime Oldham go up they have to leave Oldham, Dale really struggling . Just who is the RFL protecting here? 

Just checking - if you are counting Rochdale and Oldham as central Manchester, where are you drawing the line for outer Manchester starting?

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

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56 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

He seemed to look at the size of the pop,  community game and think 'ok,  there is a viable club here'. 

The whole of Manchester RL is just a prisoner of infrastructure. Rochdale and Oldham FC dont look long for the FL so perhaps when the reality of no more FL payments kicks in progress can be made. 

It wasn't that Salop, Andy's heart and soul is in RL, he was first a director of Leigh along with his dad, they didn't see eye to eye with Mr Beaumont and so Andy left did some sponsoring at Leigh East then the opportunity to go to Swinton raised its head so he ended up their as Chairman, we all know the reason he left Swinton, but not to be out on the sidelines of the game he and some fellow ex Swinton Directors  parked up in Rochdale, it was the only club he could go to into the vicinity, Oldham was out of the question with Chris Hamilton there, he wouldn't go back to Leigh , Salford had a new consortium take over, so that left Wigan, Saints and Wire not a chance, he still lives in Leigh.

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3 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Some shocking figures from Huddersfield and Wakefield for a big cup game. Anyone who thinks the cup should continue in the same format needs to give their head a wobble. Move to groups, with home games included in season tickets just as Super League games are. 

Cornwall have made a fantastic start.

Those who are thinking of group games and adding more games to the season needs to give THEIR head a wobble. 😆😆😆😆

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