Attendances (Multiple Merged Threads)

[SalfordSlim]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Last year's semi finals attracted 11.5k at both Catalans and Saints. Wigan v Leeds in the earlier knock out only got 7.5k.

In 2019, Wigan had 2 home games in the playoffs and attracted just below 10k both times.

As an aside - does anyone know why we moved from a top 5 to a top 6 this year?

Because everybody wanted the entertainers, Salford, in the play-off's.

[Ragingbull]

8 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

 

I wouldnt worry there will be about 14k other empty seats in the rest of the stadium that they can sit in

[SalfordSlim]

9 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

 

So Leeds allocation is 4800 and they've sold 4200 already.... more away fans than home at the DW?

I assume final Salford numbers at Saints will be in & around 4000 as there were 3000 sold by yesterday afternoon. I think I read somewhere that the away end holds 3800 so there's the possibility of having to give us a few in one of the seated stands.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

On 06/09/2022 at 14:36, SalfordSlim said:

Bloody hell £10 a season is a bargain!!!

Haha sorry, I had to beat someone else to it.

So if my maths is correct that's around £215k a season....based on 5500 (ave crowd) x£3 x13 (home games)?

Salford's rent at the AJ Bell for 2023 onwards was quoted at something like £650k-£750k (having been £150k I think previously).

 

This is exactly why it was so important that Rovers bought the ground last season, another step on the road of being able to afford full cap and marquee players (not there yet). I bet Huddersfield's deal is probably OK seeing as it likely includes a lot of match-day costs, but other renters must be squeaking about their overheads at times. 

[Eddie]

36 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yes,  you're right,  I was looking at 2019 at the time! 

I think the 6 works well as it avoids repeat fixtures. 

It does work well logistically but imho finishing 6th in a 12 team league shouldn’t give someone a chance to win the title (the NRL being even worse with eight). To avoid repeat fixtures I’d prefer top four. 

[whatmichaelsays]

24 minutes ago, SalfordSlim said:

So Leeds allocation is 4800 and they've sold 4200 already.... more away fans than home at the DW?

I assume final Salford numbers at Saints will be in & around 4000 as there were 3000 sold by yesterday afternoon. I think I read somewhere that the away end holds 3800 so there's the possibility of having to give us a few in one of the seated stands.

It's not massively clear whether Leeds have been allocated the full 4.5k, or whether it is a smaller allocation that they have been allowed to offer at a discount (membership card holders of all tiers can claim a £5 discount until the end of today). 

Earlier in the week the club announced sales of 1.2k on Monday and around 2.5k on Wednesday, so whichever way it will be a good showing in that end. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Eddie said:

It does work well logistically but imho finishing 6th in a 12 team league shouldn’t give someone a chance to win the title (the NRL being even worse with eight). To avoid repeat fixtures I’d prefer top four. 

I think top 4 was too short, I quite like another round in there. 

[whatmichaelsays]

47 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

We know that season ticket holders don't like to pay cash for tickets when they have used their season ticket all year.  Its not a new phenomenon,  we just ignore it and then appear surprised when clubs return their lowest attendance of the year for the biggest games. 

There isn't really an interesting debate to be had about it,  we have years of evidence of fan behaviour,  they simply watch it on TV instead of paying for a ticket. We either do something about it or it happens year in year out and we act surprised. 

Fair points, although interestingly, away fan attendances do hold up very well when it comes to play-offs (and tend to exceed regular season norms). I understand that for visiting fans, this would be an all-pay game anyway, but it's interesting to see that the effect is almost opposite to what we see with home club supporters. 

For me, whilst I understand the arguments for play-off games being included in the season ticket, I think the real issue to address is why fans perceive the play-offs as poor value - or at least not enough value that merits paying for the ticket. You're right that we have years of data on fan behaviour and we have no right to act surprised, but the answer to this question doesn't have to be "bundle it in the season ticket". The answer could (and arguably should) be "make these events that people will regret missing". 

[bobbruce]

33 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think top 4 was too short, I quite like another round in there. 

I still think top five gave a clearer advantage to each team as you went from 5th to 1st. Which I don’t think you get with top 6. 

[Dave T]

32 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Fair points, although interestingly, away fan attendances do hold up very well when it comes to play-offs (and tend to exceed regular season norms). I understand that for visiting fans, this would be an all-pay game anyway, but it's interesting to see that the effect is almost opposite to what we see with home club supporters. 

For me, whilst I understand the arguments for play-off games being included in the season ticket, I think the real issue to address is why fans perceive the play-offs as poor value - or at least not enough value that merits paying for the ticket. You're right that we have years of data on fan behaviour and we have no right to act surprised, but the answer to this question doesn't have to be "bundle it in the season ticket". The answer could (and arguably should) be "make these events that people will regret missing". 

With the exception of maybe Salford, the reality is that the number of away fans is still a modest proportion of their fanbase. So let's say that the level of your fanbase prepared to pay for a playoff game drops to 50% - as a number of away fans that could actually be an increase in the regular number of away fans (hope that makes sense). There is also the added feature of the structure which means that often the away team is the underdog, and maybe have scrapped into the lower spots and have a really strong narrative going into the games that their team needs support.

The problem with your last line, and as a principle I agree, is that I'm not really sure there is an affective answer to this. Sometimes, customer behaviour can't be changed enough to make something work. These games are compelling, people will watch them, but for some regulars that will be on TV. 

This behaviour is also seen across other sports that have similar ticket systems. In football, I'm a Man City fan, and when it comes to some of the Champions League games or other non-ST games, we see hugely cheaper tickets, and them go on general sale. Fortunately for them, football has a high number of fans 'waiting in the wings' who are happy to go along and pick up cheaper tickets, replacing those season ticket holders who are not paying extra (I am one of these who go to the odd Euro game or FA Cup). When we get a % of Season Pass holders not interested, we don't have a waiting list to replace them.

I always think there is more to do with events in RL, presentation etc. but these are seen as compelling games (as the away fan demand and viewing figures shows), sometimes, you have to face the reality that maybe we shouldn't keep resisting the obvious answer. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

If it is 4000 Leeds fans and predicted 10,000 total then it won't be much of home fixture noise wise 

Especially as away fans tend to be the most passionate and noisy ones. 

Starting to think Leeds as a 3-1 shot looks a good bet at the bookies 

[whatmichaelsays]

26 minutes ago, Dave T said:

With the exception of maybe Salford, the reality is that the number of away fans is still a modest proportion of their fanbase. So let's say that the level of your fanbase prepared to pay for a playoff game drops to 50% - as a number of away fans that could actually be an increase in the regular number of away fans (hope that makes sense). There is also the added feature of the structure which means that often the away team is the underdog, and maybe have scrapped into the lower spots and have a really strong narrative going into the games that their team needs support.

The problem with your last line, and as a principle I agree, is that I'm not really sure there is an affective answer to this. Sometimes, customer behaviour can't be changed enough to make something work. These games are compelling, people will watch them, but for some regulars that will be on TV. 

This behaviour is also seen across other sports that have similar ticket systems. In football, I'm a Man City fan, and when it comes to some of the Champions League games or other non-ST games, we see hugely cheaper tickets, and them go on general sale. Fortunately for them, football has a high number of fans 'waiting in the wings' who are happy to go along and pick up cheaper tickets, replacing those season ticket holders who are not paying extra (I am one of these who go to the odd Euro game or FA Cup). When we get a % of Season Pass holders not interested, we don't have a waiting list to replace them.

I always think there is more to do with events in RL, presentation etc. but these are seen as compelling games (as the away fan demand and viewing figures shows), sometimes, you have to face the reality that maybe we shouldn't keep resisting the obvious answer. 

The point about away fans was more that the behaviours seem to be somewhat the opposite for play-off games than we see from home club fans, rather than a point that away fans "make up" for the overall drop. I think that's important when the usual points are offered for falling gates; ticket prices, cost of living, Friday night kick-offs, multiple all-pay games in quick succession, for example - all of which impact visiting supporters at least the same, and in some cases moreso, than the local audience.

You're right in that this issue is more about customer behaviour and that can be difficult to change, but if we are in a position where the best option is to "throw in play-off games" to "sweaten the deal", then is there really any commercial value in the play-offs beyond the GF? And if we do that, don't we undermine other events where there is an all-pay element? That's why I think the first port of call really needs to be that point around added-value, and I don't think the sport has really forced that issue. 

[ShropshireBull]

1 hour ago, whatmichaelsays said:

You're right that we have years of data on fan behaviour and we have no right to act surprised, but the answer to this question doesn't have to be "bundle it in the season ticket". The answer could (and arguably should) be "make these events that people will regret missing". 

Hard to do when clubs they play eachother 4 times a year. Catalán did alright in their playoff though.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

The point about away fans was more that the behaviours seem to be somewhat the opposite for play-off games than we see from home club fans, rather than a point that away fans "make up" for the overall drop. I think that's important when the usual points are offered for falling gates; ticket prices, cost of living, Friday night kick-offs, multiple all-pay games in quick succession, for example - all of which impact visiting supporters at least the same, and in some cases moreso, than the local audience.

You're right in that this issue is more about customer behaviour and that can be difficult to change, but if we are in a position where the best option is to "throw in play-off games" to "sweaten the deal", then is there really any commercial value in the play-offs beyond the GF? And if we do that, don't we undermine other events where there is an all-pay element? That's why I think the first port of call really needs to be that point around added-value, and I don't think the sport has really forced that issue. 

Apologies,  I clearly haven't explained the point on away fans clearly,  as that's not what I meant,  but tbh I don't think it's the most important point. 

The commercial value is more than just paying customers,  as you often point out,  we are providing a TV product,  it provides value for broadcasters and sponsors which adds commercial value. 

One of the real challenges we have here too is that even though there may only be 10k at Wigan,  as they are all pay,  the income will be one of the highest of the year,  so it means that they are taking the short term decision of getting the income,  to the detriment of the brand. That can be a tough trade off. 

I also think the positioning of including payment in the season ticket as unnecessarily negative.  Its just a sales technique,  it isn't necessarily negative. If every adult season ticket had a hidden £10 surcharge for example that was paid to SLE central funding to cover then it maybe allows us to work towards filling grounds and finishing the season on a high. 

I take the point about undermining other all-pay games,  but I think we are already there.  I don't think they work in RL outside of semis and finals,  and internationals.  There is no reason to keep pushing against that shift. 

[Leyther_Matt]

32 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

The point about away fans was more that the behaviours seem to be somewhat the opposite for play-off games than we see from home club fans, rather than a point that away fans "make up" for the overall drop. I think that's important when the usual points are offered for falling gates; ticket prices, cost of living, Friday night kick-offs, multiple all-pay games in quick succession, for example - all of which impact visiting supporters at least the same, and in some cases moreso, than the local audience.

I think it's essentially a numbers game though. If Leeds do indeed take 4,000 on Friday (and fair play to them to that - and Salford for their numbers recently), that wouldn't have necessarily translated to being a sell out had the game been at Headingley. And instead of people pointing out Wigan's below-average home support, they'd probably be taking a good few thousand across themselves with the associated plaudits. That probably ties in with what @Dave Tsuggests above the percentages.

In a similar vein in football, if a bigger side draws a lower league team at home then it's a seriously tough sell, but draw them away from home and tickets are like gold dust.

As an aside, after the last two years I think it's great to see big away supports mobilising as that was certainly something that added to the narrative when Salford got to the final the other year.*

*I've got tickets for the Grand Final this year for the first time in about 12-13 years and in the nervous position of Leeds being the only horse I can back out of the remaining teams!

[WN83]

A decent percentage of die hard fans go to play off games at home or away and that is why we see big followings away and poor home support. The away followings also get boosted by hangers on, happy for the night out with their mates.  Non die hard fans sit on their backsides, watching it on tv and hope they get their day out the following week at Old Trafford. The only club that seemed to get a similar play off crowd to what they get in a league game was Huddersfield but everyone who watches Huddersfield seems to be a die hard. They seem unable to attract many, if any floating fans for some reason.

My guess is there will be around 10,000 in the stadium on Friday, made up about 60/40 in Wigan's favour and it will be much the same at St Helens. If the venues were flipped, it would be much the same. Every year we have people desperate to take the mick out of the home teams in the play offs, without acknowledging that every team has the same issue and therefore it's the games issue. 

[ShropshireBull]

1 hour ago, WN83 said:

A decent percentage of die hard fans go to play off games at home or away and that is why we see big followings away and poor home support. The away followings also get boosted by hangers on, happy for the night out with their mates.  Non die hard fans sit on their backsides, watching it on tv and hope they get their day out the following week at Old Trafford. The only club that seemed to get a similar play off crowd to what they get in a league game was Huddersfield but everyone who watches Huddersfield seems to be a die hard. They seem unable to attract many, if any floating fans for some reason.

My guess is there will be around 10,000 in the stadium on Friday, made up about 60/40 in Wigan's favour and it will be much the same at St Helens. If the venues were flipped, it would be much the same. Every year we have people desperate to take the mick out of the home teams in the play offs, without acknowledging that every team has the same issue and therefore it's the games issue. 

So if it´s the same problem every year then solve it by putting a home playoff ticket in with the season ticket and if you dont get one it is converted to a voucher. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, WN83 said:

A decent percentage of die hard fans go to play off games at home or away and that is why we see big followings away and poor home support. The away followings also get boosted by hangers on, happy for the night out with their mates.  Non die hard fans sit on their backsides, watching it on tv and hope they get their day out the following week at Old Trafford. The only club that seemed to get a similar play off crowd to what they get in a league game was Huddersfield but everyone who watches Huddersfield seems to be a die hard. They seem unable to attract many, if any floating fans for some reason.

My guess is there will be around 10,000 in the stadium on Friday, made up about 60/40 in Wigan's favour and it will be much the same at St Helens. If the venues were flipped, it would be much the same. Every year we have people desperate to take the mick out of the home teams in the play offs, without acknowledging that every team has the same issue and therefore it's the games issue. 

Indeed,  none of this is related to a certain club,  although naturally there will be some variances,  it's a feature of how we do things. No more,  no less. 

[meast]

16 hours ago, Chris22 said:

This isn't going to look good on Friday!

I hope they'll get hammered for empty seats?

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, meast said:

I hope they'll get hammered for empty seats?

They do every year when it happens.

As does every other club when, every year, it happens to them.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

So if it´s the same problem every year then solve it by putting a home playoff ticket in with the season ticket and if you dont get one it is converted to a voucher. 

They’d lose a game’s revenue though - circa £150k - £200k. 

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

They’d lose a game’s revenue though - circa £150k - £200k. 

It's not quite as simple as that.  

A few quid on season tickets can offset it,  and you will still get the larger away followings,  hospitality etc. 

[Londonbornirishbred]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

It's not quite as simple as that.  

A few quid on season tickets can offset it,  and you will still get the larger away followings,  hospitality etc. 

What about adding £20 to the ST at the start of the season that's redeemable at play-off time for a home/away Play-off game or as a discount in the club store?
It's weird to see the Rabbits and Sharks or Eels and raiders filling stadiums with minimal effort and yet clubs in the north struggling. I get that times are hard, but surely the clubs themselves (as well as SL/RFL/IMG) need to address the FOMO that the game is lacking at the moment.

[gingerjon]

8 hours ago, Londonbornirishbred said:

What about adding £20 to the ST at the start of the season that's redeemable at play-off time for a home/away Play-off game or as a discount in the club store?
It's weird to see the Rabbits and Sharks or Eels and raiders filling stadiums with minimal effort and yet clubs in the north struggling. I get that times are hard, but surely the clubs themselves (as well as SL/RFL/IMG) need to address the FOMO that the game is lacking at the moment.

There is no danger of missing out.

When was the last time anyone on this board genuinely couldn't get into a rugby league match that they wanted to go to because there was no space of any kind left?

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

There is no danger of missing out.

When was the last time anyone on this board genuinely couldn't get into a rugby league match that they wanted to go to because there was no space of any kind left?

I remember around 5 to 10 years ago there was an objective in the SL strategy to deliver c10 sellouts a year. I think as a tactical objective that is a sound one. 

Put full effort and resources into selling out the 2 x Hull derbies,  Cas v Leeds,  Leeds v Cas/Wakey,  Wire v Wigan/Saints,  2 x Saints v Wigan,  Catalans v whoever -  or give everyone a 'big one'  and stage these games throughout the year and televise them so that we are always a week or two away from a visible sellout -  create that element of big events and not a seat left in the house. 

Of course I think the season they had the objective they got zero sellouts,  maybe 1.