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Attendances (Multiple Merged Threads)


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9 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Depends on early ish 06-14 Wigan average not below 14k.  Last 2 pre covid years lowest since 2003. 

Just think getting FTA coverage with a audience that skews to a young demo will be huge in building the next generation fanbase for alot of teams. 

Well it doesn't because you said early 2000's. That quite clearly is the first few years of the 2000's, when as I said attendances were much the same as the final year pre Covid. Indeed they were much the same or worse for a good 5 years either side of 2000. Now you are changing that to years up to 2014.

All you are doing is showing how cyclical these things are and indeed disproving your own "fear for Wigan is that it reaches a tipping point where the amount of empty spaces disincentivises people to go". Wigan have been there and indeed in the late 90s had worse attendances, sub 10k averages, and rebounded to highs above what they had in the glory years of the early 90's.

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14 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well it doesn't because you said early 2000's. That quite clearly is the first few years of the 2000's, when as I said attendances were much the same as the final year pre Covid. Indeed they were much the same or worse for a good 5 years either side of 2000. Now you are changing that to years up to 2014.

All you are doing is showing how cyclical these things are and indeed disproving your own "fear for Wigan is that it reaches a tipping point where the amount of empty spaces disincentivises people to go". Wigan have been there and indeed in the late 90s had worse attendances, sub 10k averages, and rebounded to highs above what they had in the glory years of the early 90's.

A lot is made about empty seats disincentivising people etc and I'll be honest, I've probably subscribed to this idea.

Then I realised that it is very much stadium dependent. Most Widnes games I've ever been to are usually around 25-50% capacity and it really is a non-issue at Widnes. Even 4,000 can come across pretty well in the right circumstances. I've literally never heard talk of the desire to move to a smaller stadium because of the number of empty seats.

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11 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well it doesn't because you said early 2000's. That quite clearly is the first few years of the 2000's, when as I said attendances were much the same as the final year pre Covid. Indeed they were much the same or worse for a good 5 years either side of 2000. Now you are changing that to years up to 2014.

All you are doing is showing how cyclical these things are and indeed disproving your own "fear for Wigan is that it reaches a tipping point where the amount of empty spaces disincentivises people to go". Wigan have been there and indeed in the late 90s had worse attendances, sub 10k averages, and rebounded to highs above what they had in the glory years of the early 90's.

I dont think it disproves the tipping point at all , merely 11k to 12k isnt it. And on crowds growing again well lets hope so.  

 

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16 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I dont think it disproves the tipping point at all , merely 11k to 12k isnt it. And on crowds growing again well lets hope so.  

 

Wigan definitely struggled when they first got to the then JJB, and they'd been poor in the last couple of years at Central Park. I'm pretty sure they dropped under 7k for a match against Sheffield or London.

I can remember a feature in RL world where they'd broken their stadium attendance record to get 17k. Averages of 15k were never the norm.

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4 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

A lot is made about empty seats disincentivising people etc and I'll be honest, I've probably subscribed to this idea.

Then I realised that it is very much stadium dependent. Most Widnes games I've ever been to are usually around 25-50% capacity and it really is a non-issue at Widnes. Even 4,000 can come across pretty well in the right circumstances. I've literally never heard talk of the desire to move to a smaller stadium because of the number of empty seats.

The thing these simplistic arguments ignore is that Wigan will never get a 15k average in a 15k stadium. When the club has got averages of 15k or 16k it was because they were getting sell-outs against Saints and 20k crowds against Warrington and near 20k crowds in other games. That offset the 12k or 13k crowds. The biggest dent in averages has been the failure to get the big crowds for the big matches and not get the likes of 19k against Huddersfield with big marketing pushes. I'd say the same probably applies to Leeds too.

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47 minutes ago, Damien said:

The thing these simplistic arguments ignore is that Wigan will never get a 15k average in a 15k stadium. When the club has got averages of 15k or 16k it was because they were getting sell-outs against Saints and 20k crowds against Warrington and near 20k crowds in other games. That offset the 12k or 13k crowds. The biggest dent in averages has been the failure to get the big crowds for the big matches and not get the likes of 19k against Huddersfield with big marketing pushes. I'd say the same probably applies to Leeds too.

I'd much rather Widnes played in their current stadium, and have the prospect of 10k with Wire or Saints one day in the future, than move to a 5k stadium where we would no doubt see lower crowds than we do now.

DIfferent stadiums are better at dealing with empty seats than others are. At Widnes, we have 2 equally sized main stands with a capacity of 4k each. Apart from if there is a significant away following, both ends are kept shut. Because they always have been, it never feels like huge swatches of the stadium are empty. The two main stands are relatively equally filled and even if only half full, if you're sat in the middle feels like you're in a decent crowd.

The AJ Bell was badly designed IMO. You have the majority of home fans behind the posts, and two stands of completely different sizes. I've been in the biggest stand and it is weird looking out at a small stand that is mostly empty. It also is terrible on TV for this reason. 

Edited by Maximus Decimus
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As an example to what I said previously, in 2019 Wigan got a poor 12,555 against Warrington, 22,050 against Saints and 10,114 against Huddersfield. In 2011 they got 21,056 against Warrington, 24,057 against Saints and 19,169 against Huddersfield. That is a huge difference and has a huge affect if we are talking averages, across 14 games thats probably 1,500 or so off the average right there. We need to get the big crowds back for the big games and events and I don't think Wigan are alone in that. That translates to better atmospheres and must see games that people want to go to, with knock on effects to all the other games.

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4 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I'd much rather Widnes played in their current stadium, and have the prospect of 10k with Wire or Saints one day in the future, than move to a 5k stadium where we would no doubt see lower crowds than we do now.

DIfferent stadiums are better at dealing with empty seats than others are. At Widnes, we have 2 equally sized main stands with a capacity of 4k each. Apart from if there is a significant away following, both ends are kept shut. Because they always have been, it never feels like huge swatches of the stadium are entry. The two main stands are relatively equally filled and even if only half full, if you're sat in the middle feels like you're in a decent crowd.

The AJ Bell was badly designed IMO. You have the majority of home fans behind the posts, and two stands of completely different sizes. I've been in the biggest stand and it is weird looking out at a small stand that is mostly empty. It also is terrible on TV for this reason. 

Yep.

The capacity isn't the issue with the new stadium. I understand the challenges that the club face, and why the fans haven't neccessarily taken to it, the design is awful and it looks terrible on TV, location and facilities etc, have been a challenge, there is a cuckoo in the nest and politically and financially there are challenges - the capacity is miles down the list of issues here. 

Good luck to Salford wherever they end up, the next couple of years could be crucial for the club and its survival.

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21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yep.

The capacity isn't the issue with the new stadium. I understand the challenges that the club face, and why the fans haven't neccessarily taken to it, the design is awful and it looks terrible on TV, location and facilities etc, have been a challenge, there is a cuckoo in the nest and politically and financially there are challenges - the capacity is miles down the list of issues here. 

Good luck to Salford wherever they end up, the next couple of years could be crucial for the club and its survival.

It's sad because they're pretty much the only example of a club that didn't see a boost from being in a better facility. Many clubs went up by thousands overnight (Wire, Hull, Saints). I remember when they opened the stadium for the first time for a friendly and only got a couple of thousand, thinking that something wasn't right.

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57 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I'd much rather Widnes played in their current stadium, and have the prospect of 10k with Wire or Saints one day in the future, than move to a 5k stadium where we would no doubt see lower crowds than we do now.

DIfferent stadiums are better at dealing with empty seats than others are. At Widnes, we have 2 equally sized main stands with a capacity of 4k each. Apart from if there is a significant away following, both ends are kept shut. Because they always have been, it never feels like huge swatches of the stadium are empty. The two main stands are relatively equally filled and even if only half full, if you're sat in the middle feels like you're in a decent crowd.

The AJ Bell was badly designed IMO. You have the majority of home fans behind the posts, and two stands of completely different sizes. I've been in the biggest stand and it is weird looking out at a small stand that is mostly empty. It also is terrible on TV for this reason. 

Always a decent atmosphere at the Halton , but , as you've alluded to , ' a decent away following ' , too many on here right off the away fan argument as purely numbers , it isn't about numbers , it's about creating atmosphere , a decent sized vocal away following ( you tend to sing and support vocally more when away to try to offset the smaller numbers ) energises the home support , quite often I've been to games where the home support have hardly mustered a song all game , this tends to be when there is no away following 

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34 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

It's sad because they're pretty much the only example of a club that didn't see a boost from being in a better facility. Many clubs went up by thousands overnight (Wire, Hull, Saints). I remember when they opened the stadium for the first time for a friendly and only got a couple of thousand, thinking that something wasn't right.

When we moved to the LSV our attendances dropped , but it coincided with the introduction of licences , and what even more frustrated the fan base was that we'd finally managed to get SL quality facilities only to see several other clubs ( CAS,Wakey,Salford and even Celtic Crusaders ) all be given licences on yet more promises and artists impressions , it was only when P and R returned with the 8 s that the home numbers at the LSV started to grow 

Covid and then our I'll fated offer to bail out SL has put us behind again , work to be done 

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13 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

When we moved to the LSV our attendances dropped , but it coincided with the introduction of licences , and what even more frustrated the fan base was that we'd finally managed to get SL quality facilities only to see several other clubs ( CAS,Wakey,Salford and even Celtic Crusaders ) all be given licences on yet more promises and artists impressions , it was only when P and R returned with the 8 s that the home numbers at the LSV started to grow 

Covid and then our I'll fated offer to bail out SL has put us behind again , work to be done 

Leigh have been really unfortunate when it comes to SL. You've actually been promoted more times than Widnes, but for some reason never managed to make a decent stab of it.

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1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said:

 

The AJ Bell was badly designed IMO. You have the majority of home fans behind the posts, and two stands of completely different sizes. I've been in the biggest stand and it is weird looking out at a small stand that is mostly empty. It also is terrible on TV for this reason. 

Yes, it is a good example of a project being downsized badly. Originally you'll remember the idea was to have a big 'iconic' stand that would like shiny and exciting to people driving by. As they scaled back the spec due to finances, they should have gone to a flat pack style ground with four sides of equal height (like Leigh, Wire etc) but tried to hold onto the 'one big stand' idea. It looks daft with a basic spec and it is a shame.

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I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

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2 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

The AJ Bell was badly designed IMO. You have the majority of home fans behind the posts

Is the same not true at Wigan, Saints and Cas? The stand behind the posts is always the most full at these clubs I believe. It was a mistake by both Salford and Saints not to put terracing in the stand that runs  along the side of the pitch as is the case at Headingley and Warrington. But it’s not an excuse for Salford, the fact is they can only attract 4000 home fans and that’s not good enough. 

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I think that each club faces different challenges. In Wigan’s case, league has very deep roots in schools, clubs, families and in the sense of identity for Wiganers. So, league as a game is well developed and understood. When it comes to crowds there are a few things the club can - and must - do around community initiatives, school visits and the like, but above all people want to see entertaining rugby. People will pay money to watch a player like Field in person. The buzz around the town, and the extended support base, around this new style - with KPP and Mago getting mentioned in dispatches - has given the club a far better chance of increasing the crowds again.

We have had to put up with some of the most unwatchable rugby I can remember for the last 7/8 years where winning was prized above flair. It is no wonder people preferred watching on TV, because the performances, even the ground out Waneball victories,  were no longer events. It has taken them ages for the penny to drop, but Peet seems to get it. 

Edited by Exiled Wiganer
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1 hour ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Is the same not true at Wigan, Saints and Cas? The stand behind the posts is always the most full at these clubs I believe. It was a mistake by both Salford and Saints not to put terracing in the stand that runs  along the side of the pitch as is the case at Headingley and Warrington. But it’s not an excuse for Salford, the fact is they can only attract 4000 home fans and that’s not good enough. 

Not good enough for who? If they had zero fans yet could put a good enough team out to stay up they’d be good enough for Super League. 

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58 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I think that each club faces different challenges. In Wigan’s case, league has very deep roots in schools, clubs, families and in the sense of identity for Wiganers. So, league as a game is well developed and understood. When it comes to crowds there are a few things the club can - and must - do around community initiatives, school visits and the like, but above all people want to see entertaining rugby. People will pay money to watch a player like Field in person. The buzz around the town, and the extended support base, around this new style - with KPP and Mago getting mentioned in dispatches - has given the club a far better chance of increasing the crowds again.

We have had to put up with some of the most unwatchable rugby I can remember for the last 7/8 years where winning was prized above flair. It is no wonder people preferred watching on TV, because the performances, even the ground out Waneball victories,  were no longer events. It has taken them ages for the penny to drop, but Peet seems to get it. 

Good, even if Wigan can increase their crowds by 2k it would be great. 

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1 hour ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I think that each club faces different challenges. In Wigan’s case, league has very deep roots in schools, clubs, families and in the sense of identity for Wiganers. So, league as a game is well developed and understood. When it comes to crowds there are a few things the club can - and must - do around community initiatives, school visits and the like, but above all people want to see entertaining rugby. People will pay money to watch a player like Field in person. The buzz around the town, and the extended support base, around this new style - with KPP and Mago getting mentioned in dispatches - has given the club a far better chance of increasing the crowds again.

We have had to put up with some of the most unwatchable rugby I can remember for the last 7/8 years where winning was prized above flair. It is no wonder people preferred watching on TV, because the performances, even the ground out Waneball victories,  were no longer events. It has taken them ages for the penny to drop, but Peet seems to get it. 

We must ride it at the minute and grow anticipation for the warmer months. I’m worried about these next few home games with them being on Thursdays and would really like to see the club push some incentives to get people in, with the ambition that if they see Field and Mago entertaining like they have been doing and with the promise of French to come, they’ll want to keep coming back.
 

I remember the buzz at Castleford in 2017. People just seemed to be waiting for the home games to come around so they could get down to the games. I’m not saying we’re playing like that or will have a season like that but hopefully we can get the place buzzing like that. 
 

I just hope these next three home fixtures don’t put a pin in our chances. It doesn’t make more people want to get down looking at a ground with sub 10k on, in poor conditions. The club linked up really well with the community clubs last season to start growing the crowds again, by offering cheap tickets they could sell to their players and families. It’s something I hope they consider in the coming weeks to help build the good feeling and buzz about the place but it’s not something you can do forever. 

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1 hour ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Is the same not true at Wigan, Saints and Cas? The stand behind the posts is always the most full at these clubs I believe. It was a mistake by both Salford and Saints not to put terracing in the stand that runs  along the side of the pitch as is the case at Headingley and Warrington. But it’s not an excuse for Salford, the fact is they can only attract 4000 home fans and that’s not good enough. 

In principle it isn't a problem, but it is when you don't have enough fans to go round the ground. The current situation at Widnes works because we close the two end stands meaning the capacity is effectively 8,000. It probably also helps that because the ground was built step by step, there was a time when only those two stands were open so again it doesn't feel like we're having to close stands. Against Worky we had 3,600 in and if we were set up like Salford with say at least 2,500 in the ends and 1,100 in the main stands it just wouldn't work the same. 

I personally wouldn't put the blame at Salford's door, they are in a very difficult position. They were a small club at the Willows but a move should've seen them getting attendances similar to say Hull KR but the whole thing just didn't work. They are now in a situation where even when they get people to attend, it probably isn't an appealing experience. 

I agree, that the best solution is probably terracting down the side as it is more forgiving than seating, but they always seem to face it away from the cameras. 

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2 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I think that each club faces different challenges. In Wigan’s case, league has very deep roots in schools, clubs, families and in the sense of identity for Wiganers. So, league as a game is well developed and understood. When it comes to crowds there are a few things the club can - and must - do around community initiatives, school visits and the like, but above all people want to see entertaining rugby. People will pay money to watch a player like Field in person. The buzz around the town, and the extended support base, around this new style - with KPP and Mago getting mentioned in dispatches - has given the club a far better chance of increasing the crowds again.

We have had to put up with some of the most unwatchable rugby I can remember for the last 7/8 years where winning was prized above flair. It is no wonder people preferred watching on TV, because the performances, even the ground out Waneball victories,  were no longer events. It has taken them ages for the penny to drop, but Peet seems to get it. 

If I was a club owner , the only instruction to my coach would be , at home , entertain , away , win 

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59 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

In principle it isn't a problem, but it is when you don't have enough fans to go round the ground. The current situation at Widnes works because we close the two end stands meaning the capacity is effectively 8,000. It probably also helps that because the ground was built step by step, there was a time when only those two stands were open so again it doesn't feel like we're having to close stands. Against Worky we had 3,600 in and if we were set up like Salford with say at least 2,500 in the ends and 1,100 in the main stands it just wouldn't work the same. 

I personally wouldn't put the blame at Salford's door, they are in a very difficult position. They were a small club at the Willows but a move should've seen them getting attendances similar to say Hull KR but the whole thing just didn't work. They are now in a situation where even when they get people to attend, it probably isn't an appealing experience. 

I agree, that the best solution is probably terracting down the side as it is more forgiving than seating, but they always seem to face it away from the cameras. 

I desperately wanted the terracing at the LSV to be along the side ( East Stand ) rather than at the end , it works on all levels as the home fans can influence the refs as we see at Leeds 

Edited by GUBRATS
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3 hours ago, Just Browny said:

Yes, it is a good example of a project being downsized badly. Originally you'll remember the idea was to have a big 'iconic' stand that would like shiny and exciting to people driving by. As they scaled back the spec due to finances, they should have gone to a flat pack style ground with four sides of equal height (like Leigh, Wire etc) but tried to hold onto the 'one big stand' idea. It looks daft with a basic spec and it is a shame.

Was it the ' Armadillo ' design , or was that one of Cas's drawings ?

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22 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

How will Salford pay for the expansion of Moor Lane? They won’t even own the ground will they? If Salford can afford to pay for Moor Lane to be expanded I’m sure they could afford to pay the rent at the AJ Bell Stadium 

Again. Have you bothered to read any of the now extensive detail on the Moor Lane thread before asking these questions?

You, and any other poster, have every right to think whatever you wish with regards to Salford. I have no interest in changing that. All I do ask is that you stop telling Salford fans and the people of Salford what they do or don't think and what they can or can't do without even pretending to engage in the substance of any of it.

It's a forum at the end of the day so you can do as you like but I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it tedious.

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3 minutes ago, Ray Cashmere said:

Again. Have you bothered to read any of the now extensive detail on the Moor Lane thread before asking these questions?

You, and any other poster, have every right to think whatever you wish with regards to Salford. I have no interest in changing that. All I do ask is that you stop telling Salford fans and the people of Salford what they do or don't think and what they can or can't do without even pretending to engage in the substance of any of it.

It's a forum at the end of the day so you can do as you like but I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it tedious.

I understand your frustration Ray, but you seem to be confusing people giving their view with telling Salford fans what they think. That isn't what people are doing at all. 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I understand your frustration Ray, but you seem to be confusing people giving their view with telling Salford fans what they think. That isn't what people are doing at all. 

Not in this instance tbf, no. But it has been a theme of the last few pages. 

It's just the statements of personal opinion as fact highlighted above and elsewhere by people unwilling to do the most basic of research that becomes irksome. 

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