University Rugby League

[fighting irish]

2 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

Brian Carney is one of the most famous examples of someone being plucked from the student game. I remember at the time being told by people involved with Ireland students saying you should see this guy Carney he's amazing. Sure enough he signed for Gateshead shortly after. Bearing in mind he had played Gaelic and RU mostly before it was a meteoric rise. 

Give talent a pathway and plenty of gems will be unearthed. 

Yes you are right OMC.

They also take the game (with them) all over the world.

The growth of the Universities and Colleges combined with the spread of the game through the armed forces will play a significant part in the game spreading over the globe (Hector McNeal being a classic example). 

We're 100 years behind the dark-side in these two areas, but the cat's finally out of the bag.

Watch the game spread, in the next 30 years. 

[MidlandsRugbyLeague]

6 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I believe Jimmy Keinhorst is the only player to be scouted from University Rugby League to go on to play in Super League (without playing for a pro clubs academy). There must be countless more with the potential out there, even more so to play at Championship and League One. I think if all clubs ran a reserve side they’d take a chance on more prospects from Universities and Colleges.

Alex Walmsley, Brian Carney definitely.

Andy Raleigh a good example of a student player moving on but was in an academy originally.

Dozens of players have re engaged with the game at Uni and gone on to play pro. Its such a good breeding ground.

Edited February 5, 2022 by MidlandsRugbyLeague

[zylya]

I was born and grew up on the South Coast, so Rugby League wasn't really a thing for me. I was aware of the game, but it wasn't until I went to university (Warwick 05-08) that I had the chance to play. I actually wanted to play both League and Union, but because all BUSA (now BUCS) games were on Wednesday I had to choose. The Union guys were mostly complete dickheads - things like drinking ###### and throwing up on each other etc - so I ended up with League and playing Union for clubs locally. It was great, and also led me to finding out more about the Conference Leagues, including a solitary appearance for Cov Bears in (I think) 2007. I got my first ever yellow card in either code for a professional foul, when I pulled someone's shirt when they were going for a loose ball near our try line.

Some great memories at Uni as well - tour to the Czech Republic, slotting a conversion to draw our first ever 2nd team game, Shades "Snooker" club on old boys. We played a load of the other Midlands teams and we were pretty average - won some, lost some. Great group of lads though.

I've done a few coaching sessions with my local university, it's a shame because their sessions are on Friday evenings so it's hard to commit. There's a lot of raw talent that could be very good with some proper coaching, including provision for S&C etc. As it stands, there's a lot of self-coaching (same when I was at uni) and little in the way of support. They've got a lot of guys who have never played rugby of either code before - these are the type player that we should be working hard to hold on to - no entrenched loyalty to a different sport. Some real talent as well, athletically.

I also think League can find a real niche appealing to people who don't want the ridiculous antics of Union teams at university - something I told the League guys to include on their freshers marketing (no trials, no initiations).

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, zylya said:

I also think League can find a real niche appealing to people who don't want the ridiculous antics of Union teams at university - something I told the League guys to include on their freshers marketing (no trials, no initiations).

This is so true. Even the better RU players weren't interested in all that. I definitely noticed two types of RU player at my Uni. The ones you describe, who all seemed to talk the same way and came from certain backgrounds, and the normal ones who had accents and were pretty much like the RL lads in every way but for whatever reason played Union.

We had so many outstanding RU players play for us precisely because they thought the RU lot were a bunch of pricks and/or their face didn't fit. Decent working class RU players weren't interested in that nonsense. Also very good semi professional RU players who were in their 2nd team or even 3rd team behind vastly inferior players, because they hadn't gone to the right school before or weren't friends with the right people, just came to us instead.

[RP London]

On 04/02/2022 at 21:48, OriginalMrC said:

Played at Coventry University until '98. May have even played against you! 

Almost certainly.. played against cov a few times!

[RP London]

On 05/02/2022 at 10:12, OriginalMrC said:

I can't remember anything from back then we did play Birmingham and I vaguely remember winning. I was usually wing or FB so probably one of my team mates that did that

I was a wing or fullback back then, then stand off in the 2s, so you probably ran at me (over most likely!)

[RP London]

18 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Yes you are right OMC.

They also take the game (with them) all over the world.

The growth of the Universities and Colleges combined with the spread of the game through the armed forces will play a significant part in the game spreading over the globe (Hector McNeal being a classic example). 

We're 100 years behind the dark-side in these two areas, but the cat's finally out of the bag.

Watch the game spread, in the next 30 years. 

That’s my thing for this.. we can get business interest, journalists etc because they are the people coming out of uni and have rl as a background.. ru exploits this, I don’t believe we do properly, because the powers that be don’t rate it maybe, or just don’t have the ability to leverage this sort of thing (basically work out who has a background like this and talking to them about support) 

[Dunbar]

5 hours ago, RP London said:

That’s my thing for this.. we can get business interest, journalists etc because they are the people coming out of uni and have rl as a background.. ru exploits this, I don’t believe we do properly, because the powers that be don’t rate it maybe, or just don’t have the ability to leverage this sort of thing (basically work out who has a background like this and talking to them about support) 

It takes an awful long time for a perceptions to change though.

I remember talking to a woman on a train who worked in advertising - this must have been about 15 years ago - and we were discussing sports advertising and the value of different sports audiences to brands.  I said that there were lots of University graduates who either played the game of Rugby League or were fans and that it would be a rich seam for marketers/advertisers at relatively good value.  Her response was that there was no chance that she would get advertising spend signed off to target such an audience because of perceptions of the demographic in the market.

I'm not sure an awful lot would have changed since then.

[RP London]

3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

It takes an awful long time for a perceptions to change though.

I remember talking to a woman on a train who worked in advertising - this must have been about 15 years ago - and we were discussing sports advertising and the value of different sports audiences to brands.  I said that there were lots of University graduates who either played the game of Rugby League or were fans and that it would be a rich seam for marketers/advertisers at relatively good value.  Her response was that there was no chance that she would get advertising spend signed off to target such an audience because of perceptions of the demographic in the market.

I'm not sure an awful lot would have changed since then.

I'm not thinking of people to target as a marketeer.. I'm thinking of people who can influence.. sponsors, journalists etc.. the more we can keep uni RL going and strong the more of them will come through. It's what union taps into a lot. Those with a connection the sport now wielding the purse strings or influence.. we need that and we need to tap into it

[Pie tries]

On 04/02/2022 at 14:00, thebrewxi said:

Dave Woods was singing Northumbria's praises on the cup coverage at the weekend. Saying what a great team they were and great set up.! I can see they have a few players in there. I'm sure that St Mary's used to team to beat in the south, but they seem to have disappeared somewhat.

I find it quite difficult to follow the University results these days. The RL site doesn't seem to get updated at all. It's a shame when you see how slick the BUCS RU exposure is. It would be great to see this north v south game on youtube or Ourleague

I'm proud, and also slightly embarrassed, to say I played BUCS level League a long time ago. The Uni was a very well established redbrick, but like many at the time had effectively banned League up until just before I arrived, so the League team was very new, not very good, and that's how I managed to blag a game or two. I wouldn't have got a look in 2 or 3 years later!

The shame that league was banned….how on earth was this allowed ?

[NERugbyDad]

Definitley very strong links between Newcastle Thunder and Northumbria University. I think there are at least 6 current Northumbria players have links to the Thunder, most of those being ex-academy. Most notable at the moment is Alex Donaghy who started at fullback for the Thunder yesterday and 3 out of the 4 who were playing for the north of England team yesterday are ex academy.

Also the head coach at Northumbria Uni is former Thunder head coach Jason Payne (he did used to hold both positions at the same time) and the second team coach Adam Houston used to be part of the Academy coaching setup. 

[NERugbyDad]

Result of yesterdays North South origin game if you haven't seen it

 

 

[Damien]

19 hours ago, RP London said:

That’s my thing for this.. we can get business interest, journalists etc because they are the people coming out of uni and have rl as a background.. ru exploits this, I don’t believe we do properly, because the powers that be don’t rate it maybe, or just don’t have the ability to leverage this sort of thing (basically work out who has a background like this and talking to them about support) 

I think many RL players seem to finish University and then disperse all over the country and unfortunately forget about RL to some extent. As I alluded to previously we had a cracking team and our players with RU backgrounds were fundamental in that. They loved the game but to the best of my knowledge every single one left University and never played the sport again and had little to do with it. The University scene is great but unfortunately for the players not going back to RL heartlands after there is often little to keep them within the game. If they go working in somewhere like London it is far easier, and often more worthwhile both financially and from a jobs/networking point of view, to join a local RU club. RU then reaps the benefits again of any career path. At best the RL alternative is a sporadic fixture list of a low standard, usually playing 2nd fiddle to a RU club at a RU ground.

[RP London]

15 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think many RL players seem to finish University and then disperse all over the country and unfortunately forget about RL to some extent. As I alluded to previously we had a cracking team and our players with RU backgrounds were fundamental in that. They loved the game but to the best of my knowledge every single one left University and never played the sport again and had little to do with it. The University scene is great but unfortunately for the players not going back to RL heartlands after there is often little to keep them within the game. If they go working in somewhere like London it is far easier, and often more worthwhile both financially and from a jobs/networking point of view, to join a local RU club. RU then reaps the benefits again of any career path. At best the RL alternative is a sporadic fixture list of a low standard, usually playing 2nd fiddle to a RU club at a RU ground.

Yes totally understand this as i trod a similar path but they will look more favourably on RL thank alumni in their positions previously. If they were contact etc and "tapped up" you would hope that we would have more chance with these organisations than we would have before. My fear (i say fear but i know its true) is that the RFL have very little interest in keeping in contact with ex players etc.. I get emails all the time from the Uni asking for cash or for help and just with news.. I am sure there are things that the RFL can do to keep in contact with ex student players that they dont do at the moment, keep them in the loop even if not still playing.. keep them interested etc etc .. 

I am just spit balling on a forum but I have said for a while that the uni game is being missed as a massive opportunity for the game to break the cycle of "Union has all the people in power" just by keeping people on side who already have an affinity to the game. That prejudice of the past can start to breakdown.. but if you just let them go off into the ether and back to RU then what chance do you have of leveraging the "accidental" gains.. 

Just seems a loss to me and i've never really understood it. 

[Damien]

9 minutes ago, RP London said:

Yes totally understand this as i trod a similar path but they will look more favourably on RL thank alumni in their positions previously. If they were contact etc and "tapped up" you would hope that we would have more chance with these organisations than we would have before. My fear (i say fear but i know its true) is that the RFL have very little interest in keeping in contact with ex players etc.. I get emails all the time from the Uni asking for cash or for help and just with news.. I am sure there are things that the RFL can do to keep in contact with ex student players that they dont do at the moment, keep them in the loop even if not still playing.. keep them interested etc etc .. 

I am just spit balling on a forum but I have said for a while that the uni game is being missed as a massive opportunity for the game to break the cycle of "Union has all the people in power" just by keeping people on side who already have an affinity to the game. That prejudice of the past can start to breakdown.. but if you just let them go off into the ether and back to RU then what chance do you have of leveraging the "accidental" gains.. 

Just seems a loss to me and i've never really understood it. 

I've never had anything from the RFL regarding student RL since I left. Obviously I was never on the radar to begin with!

I completely agree its a massive opportunity and loss. Added to what has already been said what was certainly noticeable to me on starting University was the sheer numbers that go to University from RU backgrounds compared to RL. That was at Uni in Leeds too so I'm guessing in many places its far worse than I experienced. Without RU players we certainly wouldn't have had 2 RL teams. In a sheer numbers game RL loses badly never mind all the other stuff it has to overcome.

[Dunbar]

On 05/02/2022 at 17:56, Damien said:

I think people sometimes underestimate how good the better student sides were/are and the backgrounds of some players. We had several who had been on the books of SL clubs. Some went on the play semi professional RL after but far more went on to play semi-professional RU as it paid more for far less effort and was usually the only gig in town were they were from.

I represented England Students 30 years ago (blimey, 30 years, that's depressing to type!).

Even back then I was one of only about 2 or 3 in the squad who weren't playing semi-pro Rugby League.

[Sammo]

43 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think many RL players seem to finish University and then disperse all over the country and unfortunately forget about RL to some extent. As I alluded to previously we had a cracking team and our players with RU backgrounds were fundamental in that. They loved the game but to the best of my knowledge every single one left University and never played the sport again and had little to do with it. The University scene is great but unfortunately for the players not going back to RL heartlands after there is often little to keep them within the game. If they go working in somewhere like London it is far easier, and often more worthwhile both financially and from a jobs/networking point of view, to join a local RU club. RU then reaps the benefits again of any career path. At best the RL alternative is a sporadic fixture list of a low standard, usually playing 2nd fiddle to a RU club at a RU ground.

My dad did exactly this - played for Wales at a students RLWC then left university and never played league again

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, Sammo said:

My dad did exactly this - played for Wales at a students RLWC then left university and never played league again

It is all too common, unfortunately.

[RP London]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

I've never had anything from the RFL regarding student RL since I left. Obviously I was never on the radar to begin with!

I completely agree its a massive opportunity and loss. Added to what has already been said what was certainly noticeable to me on starting University was the sheer numbers that go to University from RU backgrounds compared to RL. That was at Uni in Leeds too so I'm guessing in many places its far worse than I experienced. Without RU players we certainly wouldn't have had 2 RL teams. In a sheer numbers game RL loses badly never mind all the other stuff it has to overcome.

yep agree.. not had anything from Student RL since I left either.. we were similar in that a lot of our side came from union backgrounds (i'm an RU background but crossed due to the ****s in uni union). Some already had an interest in League (me being one) but others hadnt even thought about it before Uni.. 

Some then disappeared away, some have stuck with it at RLC level, some have stayed in the game (Jon Flatman at York was our 1st team captain).. just a bit of contact etc may help but i bet they dont even have a database of people. There will be some in positions that could be "exploited" as possible benefactors if only they knew that they were wanted/needed etc 

[RP London]

52 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

As much as I hate expansion of HE and how its been mostly a fraud, it cant be ignored from games perspective.  

But yes it must be linked so thats why I would like to see clubs in those areas that can exploit it do so. 

Sheffield and York would be ideal candidates to copy the Newcastle model.  

A new pathway into the game and may just unearth some gems. 

the players are just a small part.. admin, physio, gameday etc.. all can come from the universities and there will be a lot in the teams that have "extra" skills. As mentioned earlier Rob Powell came through Student RL, Jon Flatman came through Student RL.. would they have been involved in RL without it.. I would argue most likely not.

[The Future is League]

12 hours ago, RP London said:

the players are just a small part.. admin, physio, gameday etc.. all can come from the universities and there will be a lot in the teams that have "extra" skills. As mentioned earlier Rob Powell came through Student RL, Jon Flatman came through Student RL.. would they have been involved in RL without it.. I would argue most likely not.

Exactly. Somehow we have to make sure that people who play student Rugby League are not lost to the game when they leave university.

With the right coaching and encouragement many could make Super League players and admin roles within the game when they stopped playing.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

5 hours ago, The Future is League said:

Exactly. Somehow we have to make sure that people who play student Rugby League are not lost to the game when they leave university.

With the right coaching and encouragement many could make Super League players and admin roles within the game when they stopped playing.

There are lots of ways someone can be kept in and not lost to the game. Super League players, Championship/League One players, Community players, work in some way related to the game either directly or indirectly, a fan that attends games, a fan that watches on tv either at home or in the pub, someone who has kids and take them to watch or play. Events like the World Cup and other Internationals are a great way to keep people connected to the sport who may not live along the M62.

[Damien]

22 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

There are lots of ways someone can be kept in and not lost to the game. Super League players, Championship/League One players, Community players, work in some way related to the game either directly or indirectly, a fan that attends games, a fan that watches on tv either at home or in the pub, someone who has kids and take them to watch or play. Events like the World Cup and other Internationals are a great way to keep people connected to the sport who may not live along the M62.

All you've done is describe what has happened anyway for the last 30 odd years. Much of this hasn't kept students, particularly those not from the heartlands, in the game.

The simple fact is that many students once they finish University, and return home or go to wherever they go on to work, have no access to the game locally and slip away from it. If there is access it is usually very sporadic, low level stuff that is there one minute and gone the next and certainly is not enough to keep them engaged.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

All you've done is describe what has happened anyway for the last 30 odd years. Much of this hasn't kept students, particularly those not from the heartlands, in the game.

The simple fact is that many students once they finish University, and return home or go to wherever they go on to work, have no access to the game locally and slip away from it. If there is access it is usually very sporadic, low level stuff that is there one minute and gone the next and certainly is not enough to keep them engaged.

Is there any data on how many ex student rugby league players watch the sport on tv or attend games? Not that I’m aware of, the only data I’m aware of is when England play in London you always hear a significant percentage of ticket buyers are in the South.

30 years ago in 1992 University Rugby League was virtually non existent, or certainly a very small operation compared to what it is now. Some people are always going to be lost to the game just as they are from community clubs when juniors stop playing the game. Do you have any solutions to reduce the numbers that are lost to the game? 

[Wakefield Ram]

On 04/02/2022 at 19:18, RP London said:

Where were you and when?

I was at Birmingham from 97-00 and similar there in that my first year was the first year it restarted there. 

I played for Leeds Uni 1982-86 and now my son is playing for Birmingham Uni.