Please Remove Automatic Relegation

[welshmagpie]

25 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

The amount of Pro player's we produce of top quality is the main problem David, it doesn't matter what format we use, until the authorities and club's collectively put a great deal of effort into increasing the numbers coming off the conveyor belt this problem will not go away, neither for any promoted team or the serial bottom dwellers of SL, the best we produce will always find their way to the top 5/6 club's trouble is there are to few of them to strengthen other teams.

Agreed, the sports needs to strengthen player pathways in established areas and create a plan to develop new ones.

Academies similar to the one running in South Wales currently, that is tied in with education and sits above the Welsh amateur junior leagues needs to be replicated elsewhere.

[Harry Stottle]

43 minutes ago, welshmagpie said:

Agreed, the sports needs to strengthen player pathways in established areas and create a plan to develop new ones.

Academies similar to the one running in South Wales currently, that is tied in with education and sits above the Welsh amateur junior leagues needs to be replicated elsewhere.

Leigh had 400K to build an academy, but were refused to form one, they also have an affiliation with the Wigan and Leigh collages these could have been a good organised pathway for youngster's, but alas no, it would have been another site for developing youngster's but the RFL must have thought they would have been depriving Wigan, Saints and Wire of kids from the area.

[binosh]

29 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Leigh had 400K to build an academy, but were refused to form one, they also have an affiliation with the Wigan and Leigh collages these could have been a good organised pathway for youngster's, but alas no, it would have been another site for developing youngster's but the RFL must have thought they would have been depriving Wigan, Saints and Wire of kids from the area.

And there in lies the problem, the RFL will never grant Leigh an academy whilst the Saints, Wigan & less so Warrington are hoovering up all the top kids from Leigh East & Leigh Miners.  

This year Wigan signed more on scholarship from Leigh clubs than they did Wigan clubs.

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, binosh said:

And there in lies the problem, the RFL will never grant Leigh an academy whilst the Saints, Wigan & less so Warrington are hoovering up all the top kids from Leigh East & Leigh Miners.  

This year Wigan signed more on scholarship from Leigh clubs than they did Wigan clubs.

If memory serves correct 8 from Leigh and 2 from Wigan.

[Big Picture]

On 16/02/2022 at 07:55, yipyee said:

It sounds like the NRL could do with a division 2 and 3

The NRL doesn't need that, it already has a de facto North American style farm team system in the NSW and Queensland state leagues.  Those are essentially equivalent to baseball's Triple-A level and the AHL in ice hockey, i.e. a reserve grade at arm's length from the top grade league and nominally distinct from it.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, binosh said:

And there in lies the problem, the RFL will never grant Leigh an academy whilst the Saints, Wigan & less so Warrington are hoovering up all the top kids from Leigh East & Leigh Miners.  

This year Wigan signed more on scholarship from Leigh clubs than they did Wigan clubs.

Is two junior clubs enough though?

I've seen first hand how the academy system decimates junior rugby league.

[sweaty craiq]

If not already pointed out - the big clubs with the successful Academies get extra benefits 1, generally Academy contracts are not in the salary cap 2. there is a dispensation amount for home grown players. Other benefits are bonus's are outside the cap I understand. When you look at the total spend on the squads at the biggest clubs it is substantially more than the cap we think of.

What is needed is a detailed description of what we expect and how it would be managed eg SL will consist of x teams in y divisions. Each club will run an Academy with a minimum funding of £xxxx pa and a maximum player list of 30? (also for scholarship), each club will spend a minimum of £x.xM on its first team squad which must have a maximum of 30? players plus Academy, facilities - standards for viewing, level playing surface, types of grass, toilets, catering, floodlights, media etc

Once a list is drawn invite clubs to apply for the places available and award based upon sustainability going forward - huge pressure is placed on clubs to grow not take and hope, some may not be able to commit now but may be able to do so in a few years, some may not have facilities now but may have them in a few years ( this area must have been resolved fully by next application)

 

[sweaty craiq]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Is two junior clubs enough though?

I've seen first hand how the academy system decimates junior rugby league.

In theory Golborne, Westhaughton, Culcheth, Atherton all come under the town.

When I played at Leigh Colts, the colts ran 17/19's, as did Miners, and Easts/Juniors - most colts were amateur, and some played Saturday colts, sunday local amateur team.

I would like to see Town teams replace Scholarship up to 16 yo, and Academy players to be linked to an education/apprenticeship. Its very hard to get a 16 yo to go back to his amateur club after being dropped from the scholarship

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

1 hour ago, sweaty craiq said:

I would like to see Town teams replace Scholarship up to 16 yo, and Academy players to be linked to an education/apprenticeship. Its very hard to get a 16 yo to go back to his amateur club after being dropped from the scholarship

I hate the professional academies with a passion for the very reasons mentioned above and would love to see them scrapped altogether in favour of a return to reserve rugby across the top 2 professional leagues

I would far rather see young players stay with their community clubs and have elite area training camps linked to representative rugby at local, regional and international level to ensure there is a pathway into the professional game that works for both the professional and amateurs.

In addition to the suggestion above, I don't think the amateur clubs would mind if there were set fixed dates that the elite players could play cross area representative games under the wing of the professional clubs

[DimmestStar]

Very recently every single club in Super League had to borrow large amounts of money from the government to survive.

If the Salary Cap were to be removed at this stage the government would be entitled to demand immediate repayment.

It's not going to happen of course. 

[yipyee]

1 hour ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

I hate the professional academies with a passion for the very reasons mentioned above and would love to see them scrapped altogether in favour of a return to reserve rugby across the top 2 professional leagues

I would far rather see young players stay with their community clubs and have elite area training camps linked to representative rugby at local, regional and international level to ensure there is a pathway into the professional game that works for both the professional and amateurs.

In addition to the suggestion above, I don't think the amateur clubs would mind if there were set fixed dates that the elite players could play cross area representative games under the wing of the professional clubs

I disagree, the academy's work, its the kids that don't make the cut that requires attention.

In a way the dial reg addressed this albeit unsatisfactory for some fans.

The lower leagues do have a lot of players from academy's.

The major change I would like to see although this is also not black and white and open to abuse is for clubs to pay a fee to the amateur club when a player signs their first pro contract.

[steve oates]

On 13/02/2022 at 05:12, Omott91 said:

After watching the Toulouse game earlier this morning full of excitement and hope, only for it to end with a feeling that I've seen this before too many times. The promoted team has next to no chance of staying up and avoiding relegation which is why automatic relegation needs to end. How many years does it have to take before people realise that it just doesn't work?

Covid killed the North American dream.    

It works if you analyse the situation instead of being emotive about it (which I can understand). I was around when Superleague started and Wakefield, Catalans, Hull, Toulouse, Huddersfield, HKR and  Salford were not in it.

They are now......   They took their chances.........

What doesn't work and what would be a terrible thing to see is clubs who are down on their luck and cannot afford to compete in Superleague, go through a very bad season, and then be made to go through it again and again I assume until the owner says enough is enough and leaves

Superleague doesn't create a closed shop otherwise Bradford, London, Sheffield, Oldham, Halifax, Paris Workington and Oldham would still be in it. Superleague is exciting at both ends and the championship side winning promotion is an exciting thing. How can you stifle ambition in this way??

Covid did not kill the American dream at all Mr. Argyle was a Billionaire then and still is now. His problem was once in Superleague he could not outspend the other clubs, and didn't like that so he walked. 

 

[Tommygilf]

39 minutes ago, DimmestStar said:

Very recently every single club in Super League had to borrow large amounts of money from the government to survive.

If the Salary Cap were to be removed at this stage the government would be entitled to demand immediate repayment.

It's not going to happen of course. 

How on earth do you come to that conclusion?

[devonhawk]

On 17/02/2022 at 17:41, David Dockhouse Host said:

You could give Toulouse a billion pounds if they can only sign players other SL clubs don't want due to the short period to build a SL team that it makes no difference.

The gap between leagues is the problem 

Sadly, that's what happens when the top division takes all the money. Framing the Future ruined the game in my opinion. 

[The Art of Hand and Foot]

As a fan of Oldham, I'm fed up of the up and down scenario. What I, and quite a few fans I talk to, really want this year is a stronger local club. Increased gates, getting the town's historic mojo back. Too often the emphasis is on promotion at any cost. Well honestly the cost is too high. The town is dying, we don't have local "rugby" pubs as such anymore. A place or places where meet up before the match. The town was full of such pubs back in the day. I really really believe if we can get our own central ground then we can grow. This, I feel, is the way forward. Not promotion, not yet. Once we've re-established ourselves in the public mind, then we go for promotion.

[Saint Toppy]

On 17/02/2022 at 18:14, Tommygilf said:

Essentially the main problem with the salary cap is that it only works if every club's coin is worth the same. They aren't, so it doesn't. 

Lets look at various levels:

Big clubs: Wigan, Leeds, Saints etc.

They can pay good players less than they would be able to demand at Wakey or Salford because these clubs offer the best facilities, chances of silverware, and stability (unlikely to get relegated).

Clubs at the bottom of SL

The SC effectively protects them from Relegation now. Any upcoming side can't spend to overcome the adaptation from the Championship and have the same problem lower SL clubs have with recruiting quality by having to paying more to an even greater level. IMO DB at Leigh could absolutely afford to put Leigh ahead of Wakey, Salford, even KR, but he can't because of the cap. In the Premier League, promoted clubs often have to spend as much as those at the top to overcome their inherent disadvantage.

Expansion/non-heartland Clubs

Like lower super league clubs, expansion clubs often find that their money doesn't get them as much as the big boys. Not only are they a more risky bet for players given the history of new clubs in the sport, but often they aren't given enough recognition for the difference in cost of living. London Broncos did have a "London weighting" of 10% iirc which wasn't nearly enough to compensate for the difference between Castleford and Greater London. Toronto were given nothing. On top of that, given the density of the RL player base, you often have to pay players more to convince them to move from their homes and support networks.

Conclusion

So ultimately if you are a reasonably successful club in a relatively cheap to live location close to the RL heartlands - the cap is fantastic! If not, it presents significant issues and bakes them into the system.

So essentially what your saying is those clubs that have invested the most in their stadia, facilities, youth set-ups, Revenue generation & advertising and marketing can attract & retain the best players.

Doesn't that just tell you that some clubs are better run than others. Its not the SC holding them back its their own abilities as a club. If someone like Wakefield (and this isn't a dig specifically at Wakey) had a better stadium, better facilties, a better youth set-up that brought through large numbers of good quality players every year, and had a revenue similar to a Leeds or Saints then they would be up at the top challenging for trophies every year and players would be keen to sign for them.

But they don't and they haven't made that effort to invest, and they pay the price for that on the field.

Had Koukash had the patience to stick around at Salford and see them as a long term investment instead of spitting his dummy out when he couldn't buy instant success then i'm in no doubt that Salford would now be up there as a consistent top club in SL. They had the makings of something good but blew it.

[Saint Toppy]

On 18/02/2022 at 16:03, DimmestStar said:

Very recently every single club in Super League had to borrow large amounts of money from the government to survive.

 

No they didn't !!!

The RFL were given an Emergency Loan from the Government and clubs were then eligible to apply to RFL for some of that loan money. Not all clubs applied instead choosing to fund their shortfalls by other means (mostly though increased directors loans)

Plus the loans were only available to English clubs, so Catalans were automatically excluded

[Snowys Backside]

On 21/02/2022 at 10:16, The Art of Hand and Foot said:

As a fan of Oldham, I'm fed up of the up and down scenario. What I, and quite a few fans I talk to, really want this year is a stronger local club. Increased gates, getting the town's historic mojo back. Too often the emphasis is on promotion at any cost. Well honestly the cost is too high. The town is dying, we don't have local "rugby" pubs as such anymore. A place or places where meet up before the match. The town was full of such pubs back in the day. I really really believe if we can get our own central ground then we can grow. This, I feel, is the way forward. Not promotion, not yet. Once we've re-established ourselves in the public mind, then we go for promotion.

Great Rugby Town Oldham. As a Kid, always remember the tough games playing at Saddleworth, Waterhead, Oldham Juniors and Shaw then making my way up to Watersheddings watching my beloved Leigh play Oldham with a complimentary ticket.

I feel Oldham have an individual battle to have first, similar to Swinton and to some extent Salford. Get your identity back in your Town/ City and work from there. For me, it will NEVER,NEVER work playing and supporting your beloved club in another postcode.

Once you have won that battle, Oldham can easily become a force again. Some fantastic Amateur clubs, and although not as prominent as the 80's and 90's, the talent will still be around no doubt. Promotion should never be taken away from ANY sport.

Good luck 

[clogdance]

On 18/02/2022 at 10:53, Harry Stottle said:

If memory serves correct 8 from Leigh and 2 from Wigan.

And in the last 2 or 3 years St.Helens have signed 5 from Leigh East.....never to be seen actually playing for the 1st team.

[Harry Stottle]

On 21/02/2022 at 11:46, Saint Toppy said:

Plus the loans were only available to English clubs, so Catalans were automatically excluded

Quite rightly, you wouldn't expect the British Government to loan the money to a British body to give it to a foreign company would you, it would be like money being lent to the British Hauliers Association for them to assist a French Lorry company.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

On 21/02/2022 at 11:36, Saint Toppy said:

Doesn't that just tell you that some clubs are better run than others. Its not the SC holding them back its their own abilities as a club.

Some clubs have tremendous facilities, yet still can't attract the calibre of players that the big 3 can.