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Refereeing (Multiple Merged Threads)


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Given that Aaron Bower has now joined in with the whole "this calling penalties, giving cards and then having a disciplinary is an opaque farce that ruins the game" mantra that the press pack seem to have decided is all they can bother to write about, I'd suggest that firing all the journalists who cover our game into the sun and then starting over will be a good first step in changing the culture around match officials.

And I don't think I've written a longer sentence than that since my student days.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Given that Aaron Bower has now joined in with the whole "this calling penalties, giving cards and then having a disciplinary is an opaque farce that ruins the game" mantra that the press pack seem to have decided is all they can bother to write about, I'd suggest that firing all the journalists who cover our game into the sun and then starting over will be a good first step in changing the culture around match officials.

And I don't think I've written a longer sentence than that since my student days.

On the Forty20 podcast this week, they did say they didn;t understand the fuss being made by some fans and sections of the media over the last few days, but yeah, some bizzare coverage from other sections of the media. As I said in another thread, maybe some are too close to agents and players to be impartial.

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On 22/02/2022 at 13:12, Bobby123 said:

Not many comments regarding linesmen. Exactly what is their job title?. It is pointless moaning about the refs incorrect decisions when the linesmen do not get involved in the forward pass and offside decisions, be it due to the refs pre match instructions, ( a  fact that I have been reliably informed about), or is it a mandate from the hierachy. For goodness sake let the linesmen earn their corn.

They do though, again, this is ignorance on a lot of fans' parts.

They are in regular communication via headsets and talk each other through the game, to give you a couple of examples,

Example 1- Huddersfield v Wigan, Wigan have possession and are playing the ball out on the right, touch judge notices 3 Huddersfield defenders on the opposite side stood offside and informs the ref, but as they're not directly involved in the play they don't do anything unless play moves to their area, the TJ will then inform the players they were stood offside and to get back 10.

Example 2- Wigan are back in possession, Huddersfield have 3 players in the middle offside at the PTB, TJ informs ref that 9,10 and 13 for Huddersfield are offside, ref then calls out for them not to get involved or he penalises them.

Example 3- Huddersfield are attacking and are on 3rd tackle, TJ has alerted ref to Wigan's 6 being offside at every PTB in the set, ref, will have a word with Wigan 6 and tell him he'll penalise him if he's offside again, next PTB, TJ alerts ref that Wigan 6 is still offside, ref blows a penalty.

 

Now the problem is that fans don't hear the chatter between the officials and players and just presumes a ref blows up instinctively every time a player is offside, fans also don't realise that the ref usually doesn't penalise offside players who are nowhere near the play, as in example 1, the fans see the right winger for Huddersfield offside, but the play is at the opposite side of the pitch, there's no need to blow for a penalty as he's not directly involved, but fans still scream and boo the ref because they believe he should be blowing up.

Another things fans don't always realise is that the ref doesn't have to stand 10 metres back, sometimes he stands behind the line say 12 metres back so to get a different view of things, so when fans see players in front of the ref they think they are offside, however, next time you scream at a ref for letting them all stand offside, look at the position of the TJ, and more importantly, his flag, as long as the players are in line with the flag it's irrelevant where the referee is stood.

Hope that helps a little bit?

 

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On 22/02/2022 at 13:12, LeeF said:

So after yesterday’s outrage at Gale’s charges and the potential ban we have this from one of the game’s top journalists

Yes he is trying to justify a player pulling up an injured player should not be banned

I saw that earlier and have seen the vast majority of Giants fans also slam the decision to cite and penalise Danny, with the usual "game's gone soft" and "joke decision" etc comments, we need to understand that in this day and age of player welfare, duty of care, not to mention culpability, you simply can't put your hands on an injured player, especially one with a perceived head injury.

They also defend Danny's actions because the injured player was running around again a few minutes later, drastically missing the point, the point being that no one knew if he was seriously injured or not, imagine someone grabbing Mose Masoe's shirt collar instead of leaving any hands on stuff to the medical people.

As a Huddersfield fan I have absolutely no issue with this ban, a player of Danny Levi's experience should know better IMO.

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16 minutes ago, meast said:

They do though, again, this is ignorance on a lot of fans' parts.

They are in regular communication via headsets and talk each other through the game, to give you a couple of examples,

Example 1- Huddersfield v Wigan, Wigan have possession and are playing the ball out on the right, touch judge notices 3 Huddersfield defenders stood offside and informs the ref, but as they're not directly involved in the play they don't do anything unless play moves to their area, the TJ will then inform the players they were stood offside and to get back 10.

Example 2- Wigan are back in possession, Huddersfield have 3 players in the middle offside at the PTB, TJ informs ref that 9,10 and 13 for Huddersfield are offside, ref then calls out for them not to get involved or he penalises them.

Example 3- Huddersfield are attacking and are on 3rd tackle, TJ has alerted ref to Wigan's 6 being offside at every PTB in the set, ref, will have a word with Wigan 6 and tell him he'll penalise him if he's offside again, next PTB, TJ alerts ref that Wigan 6 is still offside, ref blows a penalty.

 

Now the problem is that fans don't hear the chatter between the officials and players and just presumes a ref blows up instinctively every time a player is offside, fans also don't realise that the ref usually doesn't penalise offside players who are nowhere near the play, as in example 1, the fans see the right winger for Huddersfield offside, but the play is at the opposite side of the pitch, there's no need to blow for a penalty as he's not directly involved, but fans still scream and boo the ref because they believe he should be blowing up.

Another things fans don't always realise is that the ref doesn't have to stand 10 metres back, sometimes he stands behind the line say 12 metres back so to get a different view of things, so when fans see players in front of the ref they think they are offside, however, next time you scream at a ref for letting them all stand offside, look at the position of the TJ, and more importantly, his flag, as long as the players are in line with the flag it's irrelevant where the referee is stood.

Hope that helps a little bit?

 

The only thing to add to what is an excellent post is that some the TJ will stand in line with the PTB to assist with issues around that area 

From personal experience being a TJ is not an easy job and doesn’t just involve waving the flag occasionally 

 

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1 hour ago, LeeF said:

The only thing to add to what is an excellent post is that some the TJ will stand in line with the PTB to assist with issues around that area 

From personal experience being a TJ is not an easy job and doesn’t just involve waving the flag occasionally 

 

Some people , lots of people actually, believe that all the touch judges do is run up and down the line and wave their flag when the ball goes out, but in effect, most of them are 2nd and 3rd ref's a lot of them are also fully qualified referee's so they can all work together.

But it doesn't fit the narrative of ref's being rubbish, biased, cheats who hates certain clubs.

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1 hour ago, meast said:

Some people , lots of people actually, believe that all the touch judges do is run up and down the line and wave their flag when the ball goes out, but in effect, most of them are 2nd and 3rd ref's a lot of them are also fully qualified referee's so they can all work together.

But it doesn't fit the narrative of ref's being rubbish, biased, cheats who hates certain clubs.

You actually qualify as a Match Official not a ref or TJ. All TJs will have refereed games at some level. It is as you state a team working together

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3 hours ago, meast said:

I would contest that if your team are conceding 4/5 penalties on the spin it's because your team are already losing.

Again, it's something I've tried explaining to people at the game, that if the Giants are losing the game and on the back foot then we tend to concede more penalties because we are desperately trying anything to find a way back in the game, therefore, we are trying every trick to slow the opposition down and put them off their stride, when a team is winning, it generally concedes less penalties as it isn't as desperate.

It's very rare that a team that is on the front foot concedes a succession of penalties, it's the other way round for me, the ref doesn't care who wins or loses or what the score is, he simply does his job, if a ref is giving penalties against a team there's usually a reason for it and it's up to that team to stop giving him cause to blow.

You're preaching to the converted.

All I've tried to do is explain the thinking of a fan, and how it is naive really to expect any real difference. As reasonable as your point sounds here, I'm sure if you're honest with yourself you know it would have little effect on a large number of fans of your own team and others. Even if I agree with your whole premise, how are we suggesting to solve the problem? Mandatory training for fans?

We can repeat the mantra that a referee simply does his job, and is incapable of bias but the reality is that a significant number of fans just don't believe this and never will. That is because referees are human and humans are often biased, often favour one group over another, and even cheat. The fact that this could be the case, however unlikely or unrealistic in a modern sport, means that fans (who by their very nature are biased) will consider it when they see tough or incorrect calls going against them.

I would also question whether referees are genuinely free of bias like is often asserted. I've often despaired at Widnes games where the fans have been abusing the ref, because IMO they often seem to double down in such circumstances. I can remember one instance where the camera zoomed in on Child I think it was, who was grinning as the Widnes fans were chanting a well-known one at referees. In a situation like that, he is bound to have lost some of his impartiality for that game at least.

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19 hours ago, Damien said:

So you dont consider until the ref calls held to be subjective? I would say it is very subjective.

This is the verbatim description of the upright tackle from the rulebook. It is complete -

"When he is held by one or more opposing players in such a manner that he can make no further progress and cannot part with the ball".

This requires the ref to read the tackle. If the ball-carrier breaks free or offloads simultaneously with the call of held, that is a misread of the tackle by the ref. It`s objectively a bad call, not a subjective judgement. 

There is negligible variation in the length of time permitted for similar tackles to be completed throughout all the competitions I follow.

19 hours ago, Damien said:

The time a tackler has to roll off or away and clear the ruck is subjective too. It is impossible for the defender to just disappear and instantly do this and so the time that is allowed to do this is again subjective.

Again, the ref has to read the tackle. Did the ball-carrier win the contact and find his front? Was it a dominant tackle? What were the body positions at the point of completion? These factors determine how quickly tacklers are expected to roll away and clear the ruck. They are objective criteria, not matters of opinion.

Of course officials are as potentially fallible in this area of the game as any other. A ref who fails to recognize and distinguish between different types of tackle is guilty of error not subjectivity.

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8 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I can remember one instance where the camera zoomed in on Child I think it was, who was grinning as the Widnes fans were chanting a well-known one at referees. In a situation like that, he is bound to have lost some of his impartiality for that game at least.

That's you projecting there and nothing else.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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10 hours ago, meast said:

Some people , lots of people actually, believe that all the touch judges do is run up and down the line and wave their flag when the ball goes out, but in effect, most of them are 2nd and 3rd ref's a lot of them are also fully qualified referee's so they can all work together.

But it doesn't fit the narrative of ref's being rubbish, biased, cheats who hates certain clubs.

Fans also don't realise the TJ will raise their flag if the ball or a foot goes out, there may have been a knock on before or a forward pass but the Ref will judge that, the TJ is simply confirming the ball went out. 

I've been with fans enraged at this unjust action to see the ref bring it back and then say the TJ got it wrong.

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9 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

You're preaching to the converted.

All I've tried to do is explain the thinking of a fan, and how it is naive really to expect any real difference. As reasonable as your point sounds here, I'm sure if you're honest with yourself you know it would have little effect on a large number of fans of your own team and others. Even if I agree with your whole premise, how are we suggesting to solve the problem? Mandatory training for fans?

We can repeat the mantra that a referee simply does his job, and is incapable of bias but the reality is that a significant number of fans just don't believe this and never will. That is because referees are human and humans are often biased, often favour one group over another, and even cheat. The fact that this could be the case, however unlikely or unrealistic in a modern sport, means that fans (who by their very nature are biased) will consider it when they see tough or incorrect calls going against them.

I would also question whether referees are genuinely free of bias like is often asserted. I've often despaired at Widnes games where the fans have been abusing the ref, because IMO they often seem to double down in such circumstances. I can remember one instance where the camera zoomed in on Child I think it was, who was grinning as the Widnes fans were chanting a well-known one at referees. In a situation like that, he is bound to have lost some of his impartiality for that game at least.

You couldn’t be more wrong with that statement

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Referee decisions and the disciplinary process. 

We should at least have a conversation about it on here, we have ignored it for too long!

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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He's talking nonsense isn't he. 

Justifying his own actions for causing a scuffle around the late challenge that wasn't late and being penalised for it. 

I'm finding some aspects of RL a bit depressing right now, we are looking more and more like a small time boys club full of whinging bullies who don't like being told off. 

The criticism from clubs, journos and players from certain groups is small time and if I'm being cynical, all looking rather coordinated when you see some of the terminology being repeated by different people. 

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3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

He's talking nonsense isn't he. 

Justifying his own actions for causing a scuffle around the late challenge that wasn't late and being penalised for it. 

I'm finding some aspects of RL a bit depressing right now, we are looking more and more like a small time boys club full of whinging bullies who don't like being told off. 

The criticism from clubs, journos and players from certain groups is small time and if I'm being cynical, all looking rather coordinated when you see some of the terminology being repeated by different people. 

I'm not sure I'd agree with 'nonsense'.

Our game is changing, of that there is no doubt, and I'd suggest changing for the better with an increased value placed on player welfare.  But, any changes which plough ahead without challenge or discussion aren't necessarily the right ones.

No doubt in some ways Griffin's comments are borne out of frustration that a part of his game, which has always relied on aggression and has often resulted in him being penalised, is being removed.  But a discussion is no bad thing in my opinion.  I'm not suggested that players are necessarily the right people to be making safety/welfare decisions, but it remains a high impact sport, of which collision and physicality are a massive part and rtehir opinions should be heard.

Dilute it too much and the game is no longer the sport we've been watching for generations.  It may be that a more sanitised rugby is no bad thing for some people, but the aggression and impact are, for me, an important aspect of the game.

Of course, I'm not condoning violent or foul play, but an aggressive tackle, knocking an attacking player flat on his back 5 yards backwards is a joy to see.

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I think the first question that should  be asked when the clampdown on foul play is questioned is:

How else does the game avoid further legal claims and financial liabilities that could bankrupt the sport?

I have not yet heard a persuasive answer to that question.

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1 minute ago, Tubby said:

I'm not sure I'd agree with 'nonsense'.

Our game is changing, of that there is no doubt, and I'd suggest changing for the better with an increased value placed on player welfare.  But, any changes which plough ahead without challenge or discussion aren't necessarily the right ones.

No doubt in some ways Griffin's comments are borne out of frustration that a part of his game, which has always relied on aggression and has often resulted in him being penalised, is being removed.  But a discussion is no bad thing in my opinion.  I'm not suggested that players are necessarily the right people to be making safety/welfare decisions, but it remains a high impact sport, of which collision and physicality are a massive part and rtehir opinions should be heard.

Dilute it too much and the game is no longer the sport we've been watching for generations.  It may be that a more sanitised rugby is no bad thing for some people, but the aggression and impact are, for me, an important aspect of the game.

Of course, I'm not condoning violent or foul play, but an aggressive tackle, knocking an attacking player flat on his back 5 yards backwards is a joy to see.

The reason I describe it as nonsense is not because I don't think he should be saying something, but because I ultimately believe what he is saying is nonsense. 

I am still yet to see a red card that wouldn't have been a red card in previous years. Maybe the challenge here should be around clubs and players acting more like thugs.

The things he refers to as silly are:

- Being banned for pulling at an injured player

- Being penalised for causing a scuffle (which he now admits was his fault)

- A fictitious slip into a shoulder (he doesn't give a firm example).

It's not a good article and is a rep of a club who have had red cards so far, playing to his audience.

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Just now, Dave T said:

The reason I describe it as nonsense is not because I don't think he should be saying something, but because I ultimately believe what he is saying is nonsense. 

I am still yet to see a red card that wouldn't have been a red card in previous years. Maybe the challenge here should be around clubs and players acting more like thugs.

The things he refers to as silly are:

- Being banned for pulling at an injured player

- Being penalised for causing a scuffle (which he now admits was his fault)

- A fictitious slip into a shoulder (he doesn't give a firm example).

It's not a good article and is a rep of a club who have had red cards so far, playing to his audience.

You've never seen a tackle where the attacking player slipped and that resulted in a 'high' tackle?

I did say, I'm not condoning violence or foul play, and if I'm honest, I've never been a fan of Griffin in particular.  But what I do agree with is that players should have a voice and if we're not careful, we'll no longer have the game that many of us love.

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Just now, Tubby said:

You've never seen a tackle where the attacking player slipped and that resulted in a 'high' tackle?

I did say, I'm not condoning violence or foul play, and if I'm honest, I've never been a fan of Griffin in particular.  But what I do agree with is that players should have a voice and if we're not careful, we'll no longer have the game that many of us love.

I'm interested in the examples he is referring to that have been carded. If there are none this year, then what is he talking about? 

Is he talking about the absolute shocker from Nappa?

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