How do we fit them all in?

[Dunbar]

26 minutes ago, Damien said:

Trbojevic actually averages a touch over 16 games per season just on Manly games.

Then as you say SOO games and Australia games, when they actually played some. 

Also throw in the fact that the NRL play fewer games in a shorter season and also dont have challenge cup fixtures too, thus giving Trbojevic less opportunity to play games than Johnstone, and it's a poor like for like comparison.

I clearly said over the last 4 seasons.  It's poor form to ignore the stated measure I used and then say he "actually averages" like I have got it wrong.

[Harry Stottle]

I have not seen to much of Pryce but by all the reports I have read apparently he is a bit special, but is he ready at the moment to be drafted into the starting line of a full England team given his experience?

If we are to win this coming WC every one of our backline is going to have to be equally as good defensively as they are in the offense, I don't expect that Mr Wane is going to trade off say a players good attacking qualities if his defence is questionable, they will have to be competent at both disciplines, the reason I have highlighted Pryce is I saw him against Cas on Saturday and after watching that I consider he has some work to do to get his defensive qualities to the right level, now albeit Greg Eden is a very good player he is nothing like we will face come the WC and the way he nonchalantly pushed Pryce away in the build up to one of Castleford tries looked all to easy.

[Harry Stottle]

On 12/03/2022 at 16:05, Dunbar said:

So, let me explain my thinking.

Firstly, I will judge players on their abilities as far as I can see them and just as I won't pick a player from the team at the top of Super League over one I think is better from a lower team, equally, I won't pick a player just because he is playing in the NRL.  But, if two players are equally matched I will take the one playing in the NRL because it is a higher quality competition and I think that matters.

My primary reason for picking outside backs in the modern game is size and athleticism.

So.

Makinson.  Top quality player but I have gone for Johnstone in a straight choice for left wing as I think on his game he is the better winger.

Farnworth.  The guy is 6' 3" and 16 and half stone and the sixth fastest player in the NRL.  I thought Gildart did ok on his debut this morning but at 5' 11" and 13 and a half stone I thought he looked very small and this will be found out at international level when teams are pointing the likes of kikau and Fifita at our centres.

Newman.  In my opinion the best outside back we have produced in the UK for a long time and if he is fit and healthy I am picking him.  Again, a superb athlete.

Young.  Just think about Farnworth but more so.  6' 7" and 16 and half stone and the 4th fastest player in the NRL last year.  He may not be the finished article yet but I tell you what, he isn't far off.  Big, fast and terrific hands.  Not sure what else we are looking for in a winger.

People will tell me size isn't everything.  Maybe not.  But spending a lot of my adult life watching the likes of Meninga and Inglis treat our centres like they are under 15's then it definitely means a lot.

Do you reckon that both Farnworth and Young would come into contention for the Aussie team if they were available to them for selection?

An honest question.

[daz39]

14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I have not seen to much of Pryce but by all the reports I have read apparently he is a bit special, but is he ready at the moment to be drafted into the starting line of a full England team given his experience?

If we are to win this coming WC every one of our backline is going to have to be equally as good defensively as they are in the offense, I don't expect that Mr Wane is going to trade off say a players good attacking qualities if his defence is questionable, they will have to be competent at both disciplines, the reason I have highlighted Pryce is I saw him against Cas on Saturday and after watching that I consider he has some work to do to get his defensive qualities to the right level, now albeit Greg Eden is a very good player he is nothing like we will face come the WC and the way he nonchalantly pushed Pryce away in the build up to one of Castleford tries looked all to easy.

No!!!! defensively he is nowhere near and has a lot to learn on that side of the game, he oozes confidence and revels in taking on the opposition, he's pretty good at that but his all round game is nowhere near the standard required yet. He WILL be a superstar eventually but he needs to learn the game 1st, as do most of the other 'next best thing' youngsters we keep bigging up.

[Harry Stottle]

On 12/03/2022 at 21:11, Tommygilf said:

Of the announced training squad and especially given his relationship with Shaun Wane, Tomkins has to be odds on for the captaincy. Would be a great choice too imo.

Isn't Bateman the incumbant captain for Wane? albeit I can see the reason people looking for an alternative, Batemans current form following on from a very ordinary 2021 for me would exclude him from the team altogether.

[Damien]

34 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I clearly said over the last 4 seasons.  It's poor form to ignore the stated measure I used and then say he "actually averages" like I have got it wrong.

I didn't quote you and people don't have to go by your selective measure. I replied to Tommy's post. Its a fact that Trbojevic averages a touch over 16 games a season per season for Manly, I'm not sure what your beef is with stating that.

The point still stands regardless. Comparing competitions of different lengths, ignoring representative games and internationals games is just a daft meaningless comparison.

[Damien]

15 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Isn't Bateman the incumbant captain for Wane? albeit I can see the reason people looking for an alternative, Batemans current form following on from a very ordinary 2021 for me would exclude him from the team altogether.

There are very few shoe ins when it comes to the England team and I think the captain has to be a stand out start too. I think Tomkins is certainly one but there aren't too many others. I've made strong arguments before about Bateman not being an automatic choice and his form has only got worse since then. He would be a bad choice in my opinion.

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, arcticchris said:

Out of position is fine if they are good enough. The likely starting centres for Australia are both full time club full backs who only play centre at rep level.

If we had two fullbacks of their quality we would also play them at centre also they are still better than the quality we can put in the numbers 3 and 4 shirts, and they still have another half a dozen full backs to pick from who would walk into our team. 

[Dunbar]

27 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Do you reckon that both Farnworth and Young would come into contention for the Aussie team if they were available to them for selection?

An honest question.

No, I don't think they would.

I think Farnworth would be in the conversation around rep games but there are a lot of very good centres around... and also a plethora of full backs who can play centre.

Young is too soon.  As I have stated on a different thread, if we are playing Australia tomorrow, I am not picking Young (I would pick Farnworth) but I am thinking ahead to the Autumn when I hope Young has played 15/20 games in the NRL this year.  If he does that then I think he is a strong contender for England.

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

No, I don't think they would.

I think Farnworth would be in the conversation around rep games but there are a lot of very good centres around... and also a plethora of full backs who can play centre.

Young is too soon.  As I have stated on a different thread, if we are playing Australia tomorrow, I am not picking Young (I would pick Farnworth) but I am thinking ahead to the Autumn when I hope Young has played 15/20 games in the NRL this year.  If he does that then I think he is a strong contender for England.

Leaving aside the other teams at the moment and just doing a comparative player for player from your possible selections for both England and Australia, how many of your 1 to 17 English lads would you consider better or equal than his opposite Australian number.

Just a bit of fun.

[Davo5]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Leaving aside the other teams at the moment and just doing a comparative player for player from your possible selections for both England and Australia, how many of your 1 to 17 English lads would you consider better or equal than his opposite Australian number.

Just a bit of fun.

Thankfully the World Cup isn’t being played on paper.

[FearTheVee]

On 12/03/2022 at 15:21, WN83 said:

In the outside backs I’d go with Makinson and Johnstone on the wings but the centres could be anyone at the minute. I like the added size guys like Farnworth, Griffin, Young (if you player him at centre) and Pearce-Paul bring but if Newman can get fully fit I’d pick him and one other. Lads like Connor and Welsby could potentially be used there as well. 

Always find it odd how underrated Percival is.  Reeling off 7 centrs before he's mentioned is nuts IMO.

[Dunbar]

39 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Leaving aside the other teams at the moment and just doing a comparative player for player from your possible selections for both England and Australia, how many of your 1 to 17 English lads would you consider better or equal than his opposite Australian number.

Just a bit of fun.

I believe that Alex Walmsley, Tom Burgess and possibly Luke Thompson are good enough to be considered for selection in an Australian 17.

I also think that while Australia have a few very good 13's to pick from, Morgan Knowles is as good as any of them.

After that, it get's a bit patchy.  James Roby is playing as well as any Australian 9 but has retired internationally.

There are some very good young English players - Newman, Dodd, Welsby, Young, Pearce-Paul who I think will make very good international players for the future but I would be lying if I said any of them were better than the Australian reps today.

[UTK]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

I believe that Alex Walmsley, Tom Burgess and possibly Luke Thompson are good enough to be considered for selection in an Australian 17.

I also think that while Australia have a few very good 13's to pick from, Morgan Knowles is as good as any of them.

After that, it get's a bit patchy.  James Roby is playing as well as any Australian 9 but has retired internationally.

There are some very good young English players - Newman, Dodd, Welsby, Young, Pearce-Paul who I think will make very good international players for the future but I would be lying if I said any of them were better than the Australian reps today.

Very much agree, Englands prop rotation can more than hold their own against the other top Nations, will be interesting to see how Oledski measures up in the WC as well.

On paper I would have NZ with the strongest middles and then England/Australia/Tonga all fairly level while Samoa sits a tier below that group. 

[Harry Stottle]

49 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:

Always find it odd how underrated Percival is.  Reeling off 7 centrs before he's mentioned is nuts IMO.

Exactly, week in week out he delivers.

I Can't remember him being outplayed by his opposite number in SL for a good while and I would go as far as say if Bennett had played a centre at centre instead of a novice second row in that position, a centre such as Percival who was available, a centre who know's how to play the position by organising his inside defenders a centre with the capability of involving his winger (Ryan Hall) instead of making him relatively redundant in 8 games we could be going into this upcoming WC as defending champions.

[FearTheVee]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Exactly, week in week out he delivers.

I Can't remember him being outplayed by his opposite number in SL for a good while and I would go as far as say if Bennett had played a centre at centre instead of a novice second row in that position, a centre such as Percival who was available, a centre who know's how to play the position by organising his inside defenders a centre with the capability of involving his winger (Ryan Hall) instead of making him relatively redundant in 8 games we could be going into this upcoming WC as defending champions.

Even after the Wire game - two great pieces of play for tries and not a word.

Defensively his reading of the game is top level and he is also currently partnering a no brainer pick for England's wing in Makinson.

Yet people still seem to think Gildart is a good shout for some reason.  Odd.

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:

Defensively his reading of the game is top level and he is also currently partnering a no brainer pick for England's wing in Makinson.

Yet his defence was consistently the reason that Bennett didn't pick him. He certainly didn't think it was international standard.

[FearTheVee]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

Yet his defence was consistently the reason that Bennett didn't pick him. He certainly didn't think it was international standard.

Well, perhaps my opinion of Wayne's decisions isn't quite as high as yours after the car crash he most recently oversaw. 

Or perhaps you agree that you'd rather see Jack Hughes and Zak Hardaker play centre, with Blake Austin on the wing.  I suppose that's up to you.

I'm sure you might agree that three years is also a long time in RL.

[Moove]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

Yet his defence was consistently the reason that Bennett didn't pick him. He certainly didn't think it was international standard.

He also thought Blake Austin was a British winger 

[Damien]

Just now, Moove said:

He also thought Blake Austin was a British winger 

Well I never predicted someone would say that.

[Vyvyan]

Obviously there are a lot of question marks at the moment.  We've no idea what injuries players will get.  I'd love to see Newman and Johnstone get a shot but they're both a bit brittle.

Young, Pearce Paul, Dodd and Pryce  have a whole season in front of them to show what they're made of.  At the moment I'd say they all have a few rough edges - some more than others.  

We look pretty steady in the pack.  Losing Roby is a bit of a blow.

I'd go for Welsby at fullback.  Tomkins has never been a great success internationally.  I'd pick Lomax as skipper at stand off.

Centre is a difficult position given that England will be coming up against some very big and powerful runners on the edges.   It's one area where we lack a bit of quality.  Newman could be a solution if he's fit.  I'd probably pick Percival for the other.  Farnworth and Gildart as backup.  I can even see Bateman figuring there again if we need a better defender out there.

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:

Well, perhaps my opinion of Wayne's decisions isn't quite as high as yours after the car crash he most recently oversaw. 

Or perhaps you agree that you'd rather see Jack Hughes and Zak Hardaker play centre, with Blake Austin on the wing.  I suppose that's up to you.

I'm sure you might agree that three years is also a long time in RL.

Plenty of others on these forums have also criticised Percival's defence too. I certainly wouldn't class his defence as top level. Some of the Saints fans that are so defensive about Percival are the first to criticise other centres, as you did with Gildart. And of course Bennett picked Gildart over Percival.

Personally I wouldn't pick either at centre. However there is still a long way to go and I think both centre spots are up for grabs.

[FearTheVee]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

Plenty of others on these forums have also criticised Percival's defence too. I certainly wouldn't class his defence as top level. Some of the Saints fans that are so defensive about Percival are the first to criticise other centres, as you did with Gildart. And of course Bennett picked Gildart over Percival.

Personally I wouldn't pick either at centre. However there is still a long way to go and I think both centre spots are up for grabs.

My point is that I just think it is a lazy generalisation that Percival is a poor defender.  It simply isn't true, he's actually an excellent defender but people still use it as a reason not to select him.  I just find it odd, I'm not sure what they are watching in reaching that conclusion.

[Lowdesert]

Just now, FearTheVee said:

My point is that I just think it is a lazy generalisation that Percival is a poor defender.  It simply isn't true, he's actually an excellent defender but people still use it as a reason not to select him.  I just find it odd, I'm not sure what they are watching in reaching that conclusion.

Did we ever get a reason why Percival wasnt selected by Bennett.  I seen this quoted many times on here but never the quote.

Secondly, Bennett has one of the highest success rates for England.  Similar to Mal Reilly for GB.  

[Pie tries]

Such a great positive post. Bring on the WC !!