How do we fit them all in?

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Secondly, Bennett has one of the highest success rates for England.  Similar to Mal Reilly for GB.  

For context though we never beat Australia under Bennett and we only beat New Zealand once more than they beat us. There's a fair few wins against the likes of France, Lebanon, Scotland etc in that win percentage. 

[FearTheVee]

9 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Did we ever get a reason why Percival wasnt selected by Bennett.  I seen this quoted many times on here but never the quote.

Secondly, Bennett has one of the highest success rates for England.  Similar to Mal Reilly for GB.  

He coached England / GB on 19 occassions and there are probably 3 proper wins amongst that - the 2017 world cup semi vs a good Tonga side and the 2018 series vs NZ (two excellent close wins and one walloping 0-34 in return).

There are then wins against France (x3), Scotland, Samoa, Combined Affiliate States, Lebanon, France , PNG and the Denver test which are all just padding.

Then there was 0-4 debacle in change of an important Lions tour, including losses to Tonga and PNG.

All said, nothing to write home about and some truly dreadful selections across his time.

[Northern Eel]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Do you reckon that both Farnworth and Young would come into contention for the Aussie team if they were available to them for selection?

An honest question.

Great question. Ultimately, this is what it comes down to when comparing the quality within the respective squads. You can quite conceivably win a World Cup without depth, but you are far less likely to win one without a nucleus of the very best players in their positions.

[Moove]

48 minutes ago, Damien said:

Plenty of others on these forums have also criticised Percival's defence too. I certainly wouldn't class his defence as top level. Some of the Saints fans that are so defensive about Percival are the first to criticise other centres, as you did with Gildart. And of course Bennett picked Gildart over Percival.

Personally I wouldn't pick either at centre. However there is still a long way to go and I think both centre spots are up for grabs.

Not sure people are being particularly defensive, just challenging your opinion. Plenty of non-Saints fans have in the past questioned this idea of Percival being a terrible defender. Certainly over the last three years it's difficult to find much evidence of it and he's been part of a team with a phenomenal defensive record.

FWIW, I would have had Gildart over Percival on form in previous years, but that was more due to a couple of really poor spells where he was making errors with ball in hand, choosing the wrong option etc, plus a troublesome hamstring.

If Woolf keeps Percival paired with Makinson even when Grace is back though, then that's a pretty potent combo for England's left edge on current form. 11 tries between them in five games isn't too shabby.

Way too early in the season to be picking international starting teams. Without a doubt though I'd have Percival, Gildart etc in contention for a spot.

[Lowdesert]

18 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:

He coached England / GB on 19 occassions and there are probably 3 proper wins amongst that - the 2017 world cup semi vs a good Tonga side and the 2018 series vs NZ (two excellent close wins and one walloping 0-34 in return).

There are then wins against France (x3), Scotland, Samoa, Combined Affiliate States, Lebanon, France , PNG and the Denver test which are all just padding.

Then there was 0-4 debacle in change of an important Lions tour, including losses to Tonga and PNG.

All said, nothing to write home about and some truly dreadful selections across his time.

I think his record is far from a disaster.

Did we ever see or hear this quote that Bennett said Percival’s defence wasn’t up to it?

[Damien]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Do you reckon that both Farnworth and Young would come into contention for the Aussie team if they were available to them for selection?

An honest question.

Farnworth's size has to make him a strong contender for me. Against generally big teams from Australia, NZ and the PI nations then size matters, even more so out wide in one v one match ups.

Farnworth is a couple of inches taller and is 2-3 stone heavier than the likes of Gildart and Percival. He is quick too for that size. He is also playing at a higher level too, and while that shouldn't mean he automatically gets picked, his athleticism certainly means he gets the nod for me if everything else is equal.

Young is starting much further behind and needs a much bigger year, and plenty of games, to stand a chance.

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

I think his record is far from a disaster.

Did we ever see or hear this quote that Bennett said Percival’s defence wasn’t up to it?

Well here's one. It hardly a ringing endorsement when two second rowers are viewed as better bets at centre:

Bennett has even suggested that another second rower, Warrington's Ben Currie, would have been in line to play centre but for a knee problem, pushing the unfortunate Percival way down the pecking order.

He's done a great job for us on the edge so I'm happy to leave him there.

Wayne Bennett on John Bateman

"Ben has played more centre than John probably has but when Ben came back he had played only two games in the season," said Bennett.

"We all know what a wonderful talent he is but we're probably a bit concerned about his lateral movement. In the centre you've got to move laterally.

"He's done a great job for us on the edge so I'm happy to leave him there.

"There's not a great deal between John and Mark but I like John's reliability in defence. He turns up and makes the right tackles and makes good decisions."

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/news/15314/11136555/john-bateman-to-continue-at-centre-for-england-in-world-cup-semi-final

[The Rocket]

36 minutes ago, Pie tries said:

Such a great positive post. Bring on the WC !!

I think one of the exciting things is that you have a mid-season Test, a World Cup warm-up match, three group games and a quarter final in the World Cup you should win, this should be plenty of games for some minor adjustments and the team getting used each other.

As we have seen with the Kiwis, who also don`t have the benefit of their players involved in the intense mid-year representative fixtures that are Origin, they play better in tournaments after they`ve had a few games together.

[Archie Gordon]

One thing that this thread highlights is that our representative calendar is threadbare and doesn't help at all in separating out who can perform at a level higher than Super League. England vs CNAS isn't fit for (any) purpose. There need to be games with a Newman vs Percival (e.g.) contest right across every position. 

[Davo5]

Seeing how the first England training session has just been cancelled due to player unavailability I’d say there will be plenty of additions/ omissions come the end of the season.

[WN83]

19 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Seeing how the first England training session has just been cancelled due to player unavailability I’d say there will be plenty of additions/ omissions come the end of the season.

Something feels off with this cancellation. I really hope clubs aren't holding players back from attending these sessions on the basis of resting them up ready for their own fixtures. It sounds like there are 6 or 7 lads injured from the 30 players but it seems a drastic reaction to just that number. 

[FearTheVee]

1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

Did we ever see or hear this quote that Bennett said Percival’s defence wasn’t up to it?

Ask the person who said it - it wasn't me!

[Archie Gordon]

4 minutes ago, WN83 said:

Something feels off with this cancellation. I really hope clubs aren't holding players back from attending these sessions on the basis of resting them up ready for their own fixtures. It sounds like there are 6 or 7 lads injured from the 30 players but it seems a drastic reaction to just that number. 

I find it really odd. Surely you adapt your plans instead of cancelling. 

[Saint Toppy]

2 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

Secondly, Bennett has one of the highest success rates for England.  Similar to Mal Reilly for GB.  

Bennetts Record as England Coach - Played 15, Won 10 Lost 5, with 7 of those 10 wins coming against lower tier teams like France, Scotland, Samoa, PNG & Tonga.

Against the Top Tier teams (Aus & NZ) - Played 8, Won 3 Lost 5

Then his GB coaching record - Played 4, Lost 4, Losing to NZ (twice), Tonga and PNG 

Hardly anything to shout about

[Vyvyan]

The GB tour was the clincher for me if we're discussing Bennett.  That was a disaster.

But whoever coaches England is always going to be up against it.

Australia, NZ, Tonga and possibly Samoa (if they get a new coach) are all better than England on paper.

[WN83]

1 hour ago, Archie Gordon said:

I find it really odd. Surely you adapt your plans instead of cancelling. 

It does and some more context would be handy as to why they felt the need to cancel. Even if you get the 30 together spending time in each others company and having time in one on one meetings face to face, it is surely more beneficial than cancelling. Maybe they're worried about COVID cases again. I know plenty of people with it at the minute, so it would make some sense if they're trying to safeguard the league season. 

 

 

[bobbruce]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

Well here's one. It hardly a ringing endorsement when two second rowers are viewed as better bets at centre:

Bennett has even suggested that another second rower, Warrington's Ben Currie, would have been in line to play centre but for a knee problem, pushing the unfortunate Percival way down the pecking order.

He's done a great job for us on the edge so I'm happy to leave him there.

Wayne Bennett on John Bateman

"Ben has played more centre than John probably has but when Ben came back he had played only two games in the season," said Bennett.

"We all know what a wonderful talent he is but we're probably a bit concerned about his lateral movement. In the centre you've got to move laterally.

"He's done a great job for us on the edge so I'm happy to leave him there.

"There's not a great deal between John and Mark but I like John's reliability in defence. He turns up and makes the right tackles and makes good decisions."

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/news/15314/11136555/john-bateman-to-continue-at-centre-for-england-in-world-cup-semi-final

This is what I’ve never got he’s always been Saints best centre and one of our best players. To the point that when he’s missing our cutting edge drops dramatically. I’d worry about the sanity of anyone that thought Bateman or Currie were better centres. 

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, Moove said:

He also thought Blake Austin was a British winger 

Yes and that was after Ash Handley had been flown over to NZ to cover for the injured player's, WHY?

And what was Watson and Ward doing as Assistant coaches long with Peacock and Sinfield if they had no input.

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, Vyvyan said:

I can even see Bateman figuring there again if we need a better defender out there

No, no and thrice no, I watched Bateman on Saturday play virtually the whole game in the right centre position if I said he was as much use as a button on a sock that would be very complimentary about his performance, in fact he had as much presence and finesse as he did in left centre in the '17 WC, which was negligible.

So please Vyvyan explain to me why you would want to put a second row in what is one of the most technical positions on a Rugby League field, yes anyone can put on a 3 or 4 shirt but to perform it properly both defensively and offensively requires a special expertise that takes time to develop properly and especially in a tournament such as the WC where the standard of the opposition especially after the group stages is much better and comes along with each game.

[Harry Stottle]

4 hours ago, FearTheVee said:

He coached England / GB on 19 occassions and there are probably 3 proper wins amongst that - the 2017 world cup semi vs a good Tonga side and the 2018 series vs NZ (two excellent close wins and one walloping 0-34 in return).

There are then wins against France (x3), Scotland, Samoa, Combined Affiliate States, Lebanon, France , PNG and the Denver test which are all just padding.

Then there was 0-4 debacle in change of an important Lions tour, including losses to Tonga and PNG.

All said, nothing to write home about and some truly dreadful selections across his time.

Thanks for that, saved me time writing it all out.

[JM2010]

7 hours ago, Damien said:

There are very few shoe ins when it comes to the England team and I think the captain has to be a stand out start too. I think Tomkins is certainly one but there aren't too many others. I've made strong arguments before about Bateman not being an automatic choice and his form has only got worse since then. He would be a bad choice in my opinion.

The only 2 players I think are 100% nailed on to start in my opinion is Walmsley and Knowles

[FearTheVee]

12 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

The only 2 players I think are 100% nailed on to start in my opinion is Walmsley and Knowles

Only 2 SL players maybe - Luke Thompson / Tom Burgess also nailed on for the XVII I'd say.

Probably Whitehead too.

[OMEGA]

I’ll throw this in, Bateman is living off his form at Wigan 5 years ago and his performances for Canberra 4 years ago. On last years showing and this years so far, he isn’t a shoe in unless you’re Sean Wane.

Another one, Lewis Dodd is shaping up to be an amazing player however, Mikey Lewis is more ready than him at this moment in time. Difference is Lewis plays for HKR so peeps are over looking him.

Percival has been underrated throughout his whole career and it’s already cost him a few deserved international caps, if he continues to play well he should be in the team unless there’s someone better.

Our middles are the best in the world but we need half backs that can make the best use of them. In the past we’ve had an amazing pack of forwards but due to poor half backs they’ve spent most of their energy driving the ball out of their own 20. Walmsley, Thompson, Burgess, Knowles, Lees, Oledski are collectively better than anything Aus, NZ & Tonga can put together.

Australia have had half backs that can not only control the game, have good kicking games but they also had the ability to make a break and go 60 metres to score. I can’t remember the last time we had half’s that could do that but we’ve got 4 or 5 now so let’s not make them watch the World Cup from their sofa.

Players must individually carry a threat to their opposition and thus make their opposites nervous when defending them. Makinson, Welsby, Johnstone, Dodd, Lewis, Walmsley, Whitehead, Clarke, Thompson all carry a threat

[GeordieSaint]

6 hours ago, FearTheVee said:

My point is that I just think it is a lazy generalisation that Percival is a poor defender.  It simply isn't true, he's actually an excellent defender but people still use it as a reason not to select him.  I just find it odd, I'm not sure what they are watching in reaching that conclusion.

I never get this criticism of Percival and his defence. I think if we were to level some criticism at him, it’ll be not passing enough to his winger and occasionally dropping a bit too much ball. The lad is quality.

16 minutes ago, OMEGA said:

Our middles are the best in the world.

We always make this claim; but it’s not true. They’ve been beaten up by the Aussies every game since 2006! 

[Dunbar]

26 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

We always make this claim; but it’s not true. They’ve been beaten up by the Aussies every game since 2006! 

I think this is a little bit of a simplification. 

While we have lauded some of our forwards for the last 15 years, I agree they have not always come out on top.

But for me, it isn't the pack that's the issue.  A pack plays off the back of the field position that the halves offer through their kicking game - tactical long kicking and repeat sets - just as much as the halves play off the back of forward domination. It is symbiotic. 

I have said many times, the single biggest difference between Australia and England for the last 20 years has been the outstanding tactical kicking of their halves and our poor execution.  Leaving their pack always on the front foot.