Dave T Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 7 minutes ago, Dallas Mead said: Yes, but that’s only 2 players out of the top 25 isn’t it. Most full time RL players in this country will be on circa £70,000/£80,000 a year for playing the hardest team sport in the world. A pittance. A pathetic pittance. What should they be on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Mead Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 6 minutes ago, Dave T said: What should they be on? 3 times as much, at least. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 19 minutes ago, Dallas Mead said: 3 times as much, at least. So a ~£5 million player wage bill for a Super League side. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Frisky Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 33 minutes ago, Dallas Mead said: Yes, but that’s only 2 players out of the top 25 isn’t it. Most full time RL players in this country will be on circa £70,000/£80,000 a year for playing the hardest team sport in the world. A pittance. A pathetic pittance. Well yes, but how do you propose the problem is solved? - easy just to spout negative comments. Easy just to slate SL clubs but you can only pay money you have. A lot of players are on around £20k so as was said a few months ago - a brickie or plasterer who earns say £40k a year pay money to watch their mate play RL and the fans are on more money than some players. Most SL clubs are in better overall position than NRL clubs which totally depend on TV money anx dont own their own grounds - 20 years ago Aussies came to SL as the wages were high and the exchange rate was very good. It will change around one day but will take time and rely on SL clubs not going to the wall by paying silly money while they are in this dip. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 24 minutes ago, Dallas Mead said: 3 times as much, at least. That seems high. Surely the correct answer is that we should pay players what we can reasonably afford to pay them. I'm not sure why a quarter of a million is the right number and 80k isn't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Frisky Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Dave T said: That seems high. Surely the correct answer is that we should pay players what we can reasonably afford to pay them. I'm not sure why a quarter of a million is the right number and 80k isn't. I think he used to be in charge of the Leeds United commercial department 20 years ago.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Mead Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 2 hours ago, Dave T said: That seems high. Surely the correct answer is that we should pay players what we can reasonably afford to pay them. I'm not sure why a quarter of a million is the right number and 80k isn't. You’re all missing my point……I’m bemoaning that the sport (again, surely THE hardest team sport in the world) cannot actually afford to pay full time world class athletes more than I get for sitting on my fat aris pressing keys on a laptop keyboard. It’s a travesty……scrap the cap and grow the sport FGS! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 21 minutes ago, Dallas Mead said: You’re all missing my point……I’m bemoaning that the sport (again, surely THE hardest team sport in the world) cannot actually afford to pay full time world class athletes more than I get for sitting on my fat aris pressing keys on a laptop keyboard. It’s a travesty……scrap the cap and grow the sport FGS! Will scrapping the cap mean we can afford to pay them more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 21 minutes ago, Dallas Mead said: You’re all missing my point……I’m bemoaning that the sport (again, surely THE hardest team sport in the world) cannot actually afford to pay full time world class athletes more than I get for sitting on my fat aris pressing keys on a laptop keyboard. It’s a travesty……scrap the cap and grow the sport FGS! I have loads of respect for professional Rugby League players and I want to see the sport grow its revenues and I definitely want to see the the cap back in line with where it was circa 2002 accounting for inflation. But it is all a matter of perspective. Plenty of Rugby League fans are not on the salary levels that you clearly are and so £70,000/£80,000 to them is not a bad income. The world of sport has been thrown out of all sensible proportions with what some people earn these days. 1 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Chopra Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 6 minutes ago, Dunbar said: But it is all a matter of perspective. Plenty of Rugby League fans are not on the salary levels that you clearly are and so £70,000/£80,000 to them is not a bad income. The world of sport has been thrown out of all sensible proportions with what some people earn these days. But not English rugby league. 70-80k for a 10 year career that qualifies you for not much else after, and that could be ended without notice at any point, is a pretty average offer to be honest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Mead Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 7 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I have loads of respect for professional Rugby League players and I want to see the sport grow its revenues and I definitely want to see the the cap back in line with where it was circa 2002 accounting for inflation. But it is all a matter of perspective. Plenty of Rugby League fans are not on the salary levels that you clearly are and so £70,000/£80,000 to them is not a bad income. The world of sport has been thrown out of all sensible proportions with what some people earn these days. We’re miles behind both the NRL and Union in this country. Any sensible, talented “rugby” athlete would choose either of these 2 options over a M62 constricted Rugby League. I’m praying IMG can kick start things for the whole sport and at least GROW it. I mean come on people, the finances of the sport have hardly moved the dial in 20 foffin years!!!!!! We’re on a par with netball FGS. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Toby Chopra said: But not English rugby league. 70-80k for a 10 year career that qualifies you for not much else after, and that could be ended without notice at any point, is a pretty average offer to be honest. As I said in my post that you quoted, I want to see our players earning more. But 70-80k in your 20's, early 30's is a good salary, I didn't earn that at this age. And this 10 year career bit is a strange argument. Are you expecting them to retire from the world of work at 35? They can still go on to have other career's for the next 30/40 years... plenty of people change careers - many well after 30. Edited June 10, 2022 by Dunbar 1 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 3 minutes ago, Dallas Mead said: We’re miles behind both the NRL and Union in this country. Any sensible, talented “rugby” athlete would choose either of these 2 options over a M62 constricted Rugby League. I’m praying IMG can kick start things for the whole sport and at least GROW it. I mean come on people, the finances of the sport have hardly moved the dial in 20 foffin years!!!!!! We’re on a par with netball FGS. Yes, that's what I meant when I said 'I definitely want to see the the cap back in line with where it was circa 2002 accounting for inflation.' in the post you quoted. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Prophet Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 (edited) I agree with Dallas, if the sport and it’s clubs cannot afford to pay it’s top line players a minimum wage of £75k then that is a reflection of how financially limited the SL is at present. 2 hours ago, Mr Frisky said: Most SL clubs are in better overall position than NRL clubs which totally depend on TV money anx dont own their own grounds You have got to be kidding Frisky. To say the clubs depend on TV money is like saying clubs depend on gate money, sponsorships, ticket sales, merchandise and profit margin on hot chips sold at the kiosk. Of course the clubs rely on TV money, it is a legitimate income stream. I don’t know why a club owning its own ground is such a strong demonstration of a club’s “overall position”. The grounds in SL and professional divisions below that are owned by the clubs themselves are predominantly small venues or dumps or both that cost more than they bring in. There are many, many rich sporting clubs around this world that do not own their playing venue. The richest 24 sports clubs in Australia do not own their venue and each of them are significantly larger organisations than any SL clubs. I hazard a guess, some would be worth more than all SL clubs put together. Edited June 10, 2022 by Sports Prophet 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said: But not English rugby league. 70-80k for a 10 year career that qualifies you for not much else after, and that could be ended without notice at any point, is a pretty average offer to be honest. The reality is though that we don't have a load of fat cats sitting around giving money off treating players like 2nd class citizens. The reason we don't pay more is broadly because our revenues haven't increased. That is a failing, but is a reality - we can't just click our fingers and pay more. An area I'd like to see us focus is on being a responsible employer. Decent minimum/living wage, good conditions, good insurance, pensions etc. should be a base for players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Chopra Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 27 minutes ago, Dunbar said: As I said in my post that you quoted, I want to see our players earning more. But 70-80k in your 20's, early 30's is a good salary, I didn't earn that at this age. And this 10 year career bit is a strange argument. Are you expecting them to retire from the world of work at 35? They can still go on to have other career's for the next 3/40 years... plenty of people change careers - many well after 30. I'm glad we agree players should be paid more. But I find it hard to agree that were offering young people a good deal, despite what the average 20-something earns. It's a totally different scenario. Our offer currently is: "Quit education early, give us your best years, take a battering, and we won't give you financial security. But don't worry, you can always retrain at the end of it." I'm not surprised we're struggling with our pathway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Chopra Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 36 minutes ago, Dave T said: The reality is though that we don't have a load of fat cats sitting around giving money off treating players like 2nd class citizens. The reason we don't pay more is broadly because our revenues haven't increased. That is a failing, but is a reality - we can't just click our fingers and pay more. An area I'd like to see us focus is on being a responsible employer. Decent minimum/living wage, good conditions, good insurance, pensions etc. should be a base for players. Absolutely. I acknowledge the financing reality, I just struggle to agree with the assertion made that we're offering a particularly good deal good deal. But it is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 6 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said: I'm glad we agree players should be paid more. But I find it hard to agree that were offering young people a good deal, despite what the average 20-something earns. It's a totally different scenario. Our offer currently is: "Quit education early, give us your best years, take a battering, and we won't give you financial security. But don't worry, you can always retrain at the end of it." I'm not surprised we're struggling with our pathway. They don't have to quit education. Education these days is immensely flexible (it is my industry). If a professional athlete wanted to continue their education then they can - and enough do it to prove it is possible. 1 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Picture Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 5 hours ago, Mr Frisky said: Well yes, but how do you propose the problem is solved? - easy just to spout negative comments. Easy just to slate SL clubs but you can only pay money you have. A lot of players are on around £20k so as was said a few months ago - a brickie or plasterer who earns say £40k a year pay money to watch their mate play RL and the fans are on more money than some players. Most SL clubs are in better overall position than NRL clubs which totally depend on TV money anx dont own their own grounds - 20 years ago Aussies came to SL as the wages were high and the exchange rate was very good. It will change around one day but will take time and rely on SL clubs not going to the wall by paying silly money while they are in this dip. Most SL clubs are in a better overall position than NRL clubs? Just what planet do you live on?????? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 2 hours ago, Dave T said: The reason we don't pay more is broadly because our revenues haven't increased. Indeed. And it should be a badge of shame for everyone involved with the game that the result is that we expect players to put their bodies on their line in one of the toughest sports there is for comparative peanuts. A shoulder shrug isn't good enough. 2 1 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 19 minutes ago, gingerjon said: Indeed. And it should be a badge of shame for everyone involved with the game that the result is that we expect players to put their bodies on their line in one of the toughest sports there is for comparative peanuts. A shoulder shrug isn't good enough. Based on where we are, the alternative is to run up unsustainable debts, which is what some other sports do, I'm glad we haven't done that. I do think we need to have cap increases linked to revenues, why would clubs vote for increases? I think linking a % spend to league revenues removes any decision making from this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 2 hours ago, Dunbar said: They don't have to quit education. Education these days is immensely flexible (it is my industry). If a professional athlete wanted to continue their education then they can - and enough do it to prove it is possible. That may be the case once a player is older and more established but youngsters trying to make it certainly face a barrier there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 8 minutes ago, Damien said: That may be the case once a player is older and more established but youngsters trying to make it certainly face a barrier there. It is all about education (if you will pardon the pun). If, as a sport, we cannot pay our players as much as we feel they deserve, there are still things we can do to support them. We can provide them with access to continuous learning. That could be skilled professional training or further and higher education. There are absolutely no barriers to this as many young people continue to study in full time work (Degree Apprenticeships for example). We can also provide players with support on how to manage their money when they do earn it. If I am going to earn £80k a year for a decade and then £40k another decade, I would take the £80k in my 20's and the £40k in my 40's. Well now I would because I know earning money early is the key to financial freedom if you are sensible with what you do with it. These two things - education and the sensible management of money - are two of my life's passions. In my current job, I help my younger colleagues out with advice and support on both. I know clubs do some of this but they can never do enough... there are many ways to look after our players and paying them is just one. 4 "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Mead Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 1 hour ago, gingerjon said: Indeed. And it should be a badge of shame for everyone involved with the game that the result is that we expect players to put their bodies on their line in one of the toughest sports there is for comparative peanuts. A shoulder shrug isn't good enough. 100% This ^^^^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Frisky Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Big Picture said: Most SL clubs are in a better overall position than NRL clubs? Just what planet do you live on?????? Well for starters SL clubs don't rely on gambling addiction to bring money into their clubs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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