Westerman, England squad?

[Harry Stottle]

Radford says he is the best 13 in the comp on his present form, Stevo and Eddie say he should be in the England team in front of Morgan Knowles as he can offer so much more.

On the evidence I have seen this season I have to agree.

I have always been of the opinion that the players who are in form in whatever position they play in should be the ones selected, past reputation should not be a consideration if form does not warrent selection. To many England coaches over a long number of years have been guilty of selecting the name not the form player, and has history proves selecting the name over the form players has resulted in not a lot, no WC wins, no 3 or 4 nation wins, and of test series wins none of the one that really matters against the Kangaroo's.

[Dunbar]

Morgan Knowles would be the first name on the team sheet for me.

[Saint Toppy]

Westerman lacks consistency, both during matches and from game to game. He'll has a tendency to have a good spell in games and then go missing (or have a brain fart), rarely have I seen a good full 80min performance from him. Similarly he can have a good game 1 week and then a really poor one the next.

The fact he's now on his 7th professional club and only managed a couple of England appearances 8 Yrs ago  says a lot about how coaches view him.

[Harry Stottle]

10 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Westerman lacks consistency, both during matches and from game to game. He'll has a tendency to have a good spell in games and then go missing (or have a brain fart), rarely have I seen a good full 80min performance from him. Similarly he can have a good game 1 week and then a really poor one the next.

The fact he's now on his 7th professional club and only managed a couple of England appearances 8 Yrs ago  says a lot about how coaches view him.

See your doing exactly the same in reverse that I am calling for you are bringing up the past not the present, On present form he is as good as any 13 playing in our comp, and you are even not considering him because he might have a poor game after having a stormer.

[dkw]

17 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Morgan Knowles would be the first name on the team sheet for me.

If Knowles is fit and isn't our first choice 13 then Wane is an idiot.

[fighting irish]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

See your doing exactly the same in reverse that I am calling for you are bringing up the past not the present, On present form he is as good as any 13 playing in our comp, and you are even not considering him because he might have a poor game after having a stormer.

Don't forget 'Arry, you are displaying the (audacity) temerity to favour Westerman over a ''Saints'' player, so you should have expected that kind of response. 

[Harry Stottle]

30 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Morgan Knowles would be the first name on the team sheet for me.

For his abillity to break a defence, slight of hand and ball distribution, to beat the other (better) teams in the comp these attributes are exactly what we need, that is why Walmsley is so good apart from his strong running he has the ability to involve his team mates with his distribution. In the present England squad Walmsley is on his own in this respect Westerman offers two, I would still have Knowles in the team but not at 13.

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, dkw said:

If Knowles is fit and isn't our first choice 13 then Wane is an idiot.

Even if Westerman shows the same form throughout the season?

[Harry Stottle]

22 minutes ago, dkw said:

If Knowles is fit and isn't our first choice 13 then Wane is an idiot.

Just reading another thread, this guy obviously likes to see the ball distributed with comments like these:-

"great rugby rather than "Process" and percentage rubbish"

Westerman can offer that.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

If Westerman is England’s best 13 we’re in real trouble 

[Tommygilf]

29 minutes ago, dkw said:

If Knowles is fit and isn't our first choice 13 then Wane is an idiot.

Or Knowles decides he is Welsh again...

[Harry Stottle]

14 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

If Westerman is England’s best 13 we’re in real trouble 

Well we all know your asseenent of what a Rugby League player should be like, 7 games in according to your pre season assesment Leeds should be at the top of the table, and wasn't there another game Leeds played in the cup when Westerman ripped Leeds apart?

[Harry Stottle]

19 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

If Westerman is England’s best 13 we’re in real trouble 

On present form he is. Whether he maintains that or not has to be seen.

[Jughead]

Is current form the last two weeks, because to then, Cas were one win from five and people were talking of them for the drop? 

Knowles has been England’s best option at 13 for the last couple of years. 

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

Westerman offers so much more than Knowles.  Obviously not including third man in shoulder charges.

[DavidM]

I’d put Knowles and Sutton ahead of him 

[Lowdesert]

Do we know what decision Victor Radley has made?  Eng or Aus?

 

[Saint Toppy]

33 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

On present form he is. Whether he maintains that or not has to be seen.

All this based on the opinion of his own coach and Eddie & Stevo - the 2 very same clowns who ran the 'Briers for Britain' campaign  

Knowles has been the best 13 in SL for the last couple of years (SL Dream Team 13 in 2019, 20 & 21). He was voted Wales's player of the tournament in the last WC (when he was still only 19Yrs old) and was England's best player on his debut for them in 2021.

Could Westerman have a great season and earn himself a place in the England squad, yes of course, but he's rarely produced those consistently good performances throughout his entire career, unlike Knowles who's playing at or near his best week after week, year after year

[Dunbar]

Westerman is a skilful big guy, I enjoy watching him play.  But I think Knowles is just a different level.

Knowles is technically very good and that includes a good passing game which is what England need in the middle if we want our halves to attack on the edge.  Not slight of hand but good clean distribution. 

But it is more than that.  It is the effort plays where he stands out.  He dominates almost all physical contact, both attack and defence and his work rate is phenomenal.  For me, he is perfect team mate and made for international rugby.

When I see Murray, Radley or Yeo play in the NRL I think we would be massively outmatched at 13 if it were not for the existence of Morgan Knowles.

[The Rocket]

 I`ve seen too many `Dad`s army` English Rugby League teams get run off their feet by Aussie teams full off 25 - 28 year olds in their physical prime. Bringing in a 32 year old would show your selectors haven`t learnt a thing. You`ve got to go with youth.

[Lowdesert]

40 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

 I`ve seen too many `Dad`s army` English Rugby League teams get run off their feet by Aussie teams full off 25 - 28 year olds in their physical prime. Bringing in a 32 year old would show your selectors haven`t learnt a thing. You`ve got to go with youth.

I dont 100% agree but near enough.  The main consideration, regarding the OP, is whether he would make the squad and you have to look at potential & existing injury risk during a long tournament.  Unfortunately, for me, Joe fits into the higher level of risk. 

Our pitches will be getting firmer when/if the summer arrives and a run of good form at the back end might justify reconsideration.

Edit:  To Joes credit he is 13th in metres gained from 113 carries, so he is getting plenty of work and hasnt pulled up to my knowledge.

[Chris22]

Westerman is having a decent year, but his best game is equal to an average performance by Knowles.

Knowles is our best 13 and if he isn't injured or suffers a big drop in form, he should start.

Saying that, if Westerman keeps up his form, he's a shot as a squad player.

[Saint Toppy]

47 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

But it is more than that.  It is the effort plays where he stands out.  He dominates almost all physical contact, both attack and defence and his work rate is phenomenal.  For me, he is perfect team mate and made for international rugby.

 

Stats aside (which we all know only tell half a story), for me the real test of a players quality is how well a team plays when they're not on the pitch. After Walmsley, Knowles is probably Saints most valuable player in terms of the teams overall performance. When he's not on the pitch (either during a game through substitution) or not playing at all there's a noticeable difference in Saints defensive line speed, intensity and the extra efforts to shut plays down. 

He gets the plaudits for some of the 'big hits' he puts in but his fellow players (and coaches) have all commented on his ability to do all the 'little things' well every week, all the hard work that usually goes unnoticed but is so valuable to the team as a whole.

The likes of Radley & Murray aren't spectacular players with multiple tackle busts & offloads every week. They're very much in the same mould of Knowles, tough, hard working, uncompromising players. The difference is they get recognised more for that in the NRL, and the fans seem to appreciate what they bring to the team. Here in the UK some fans (and commentators) only seem interested in the eye catching stuff like line breaks & offloads. 

Thankfully we're coached by someone like Wane who does actually recognise what actually important to a team if England are to truly compete with the likes of Aus & NZ 

[WN83]

3 hours ago, dkw said:

If Knowles is fit and isn't our first choice 13 then Wane is an idiot.

Wane absolutely loves Morgan Knowles. He will be the first name on his team sheet IMO but like he did in the All Stars game last year, he might give him minutes at prop as well as at loose forward. 

As for Westerman, the penny dropped with him last year IMO. He has spent 10+ years treading water in a lot of ways and now seems to finally realise his career won't last many more years and he looks determined to make the most of the time he has left. He was sensational against us and I would have him in the squad without any shadow of a doubt but either way, Knowles starts and I expect will play 80 minutes most weeks. 

[WN83]

1 hour ago, Chris22 said:

Westerman is having a decent year, but his best game is equal to an average performance by Knowles.

Knowles is our best 13 and if he isn't injured or suffers a big drop in form, he should start.

Saying that, if Westerman keeps up his form, he's a shot as a squad player.

Depends what you want, they're totally different sorts of loose forwards. Knowles doesn't have the handling ability of Westerman and would never cut a team up like Westerman did to us time and again recently with his running game but Westerman doesn't have the Rolls Royce engine Knowles has and wouldn't be able to play that role of leading Saints line speed and intensity in defence.

There is room for both of them IMO, which would mean one playing a spell at prop but that's not an issue.