Do ex Toronto fans still watch ?

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Using facts is quite important. The RFL and clubs voting TWP into the comp, and ultimately SL is on record as happening, just saying there was a sense of relief when they left is pure unquantifiable opinion. 

Initiatives like TWP are controversial. We shouldn't get upset about that. This isn't necessarily about outsiders (I know some RL fans love to self loathe and portray RL fans as backwards), it is about how we do things and whether they make sense. But even where people don't like them, thats OK, they are perfectly entitled to feel like that. 

I mean let's be honest, I'm seen as anti-TWP here and being asked to justify Leigh FFS for the simple fact that I can understand why TWP weren't allowed back in when Argyle left and took TWP out of SL. 

My view on expansion is that if someone is prepared to fund it, we should embrace every opportunity. That includes TWP, if a genuine backer wanted to bring them back from the dead and could provide guarantees, I'd let them in for 2023 if they could be ready. I support every bit of expansion and buy I to the arguments put forward by most others here. Literally the one area we disagree is that I only believe these things should be done with correct funding, and not fantastical claims about huge NA markets. 

Without proper funding, we get PSG. I was perfectly happy with Argyle funding TWP, even though I may not like his manner or some of his approach, but once he decided he could no longer fund it, that changes things hugely. I suspect a club like TWP would probably need to be propped up for 10 to 20 years, and that funding would need to be private. 

But to your final point, I suspect the TWP fans were much the same as Northern English fans. Without a club I suspect they busy themselves with other things. 

Using facts is quite important and the omissions are just as crucial.

The sense of adventure and risk departed very quickly for some and that anti-feeling grew and grew.

My view on expansion is that whatever it is won't make any difference it wil be welcomed to some extent, a thousand reasons will be given why it's not going to work. Then it won't and there'll be a few smug comments. The RFL will do as little as possible and make it clear they weren't to blame. If the expansion clubs start in the lowest division they'll be crucified and if they start in SL they'll be hung drawn and quartered. That theme of damned if you do or don't is how the story of expansion tends to work out.

 

As a sport we are welcoming but there are so many caveats it's barely worth anyone trying and I'm always surprised when they do.

But if you were an investor looking into RL I can't see why you'd continue after you read about TWP.

As a fan the people who followed TWP in Toronto are a sober lesson to anyone who becomes excited about RL.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Oxford

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Using facts is quite important and the omissions are just as crucial.

The sense of adventure and risk departed very quickly for some and that anti-feeling grew and grew.

My view on expansion is that whatever it is won't make any difference it wil be welcomed to some extent, a thousand reasons will be given why it's not going to work. Then it won't and there'll be a few smug comments. The RFL will do as little as possible and make it clear they weren't to blame. If the expansion clubs start in the lowest division they'll be crucified and if they start in SL they'll be hung drawn and quartered. That theme of damned if you do or don't is how the story of expansion tends to work out.

 

As a sport we are welcoming but there are so many caveats it's barely worth anyone trying and I'm always surprised when they do.

But if you were an investor looking into RL I can't see why you'd continue after you read about TWP.

As a fan the people who followed TWP in Toronto are a sober lesson to anyone who becomes excited about RL.

 

 

We have a problem with negativity in RL, I agree with that. However we do have a tendency to oy dislike the negativity that criticises things we like. I debate TWP with some people here who hate the criticism of Toronto, but actively contributed to the negativity aroubd the Super 8's. They will also pile on the negativity around clubs that have been around for decades. 

So forgive me for not getting too upset around an initiative like Toronto receiving some criticism. So did all the other expansion teams I've named, so does P&R, so did the S8's, so did licensing. 

The world of RL is small, a modest amount of dissatisfaction can be presented as huge unrest - I think the refereeing clampdown this year was an example of that. 

But if you were an investor, you would see a relatively easy pathway to the top division, with some hurdles you would need to overcome. Hopefully if you were a strategic investor like we are hopefully getting you would see that kicking these hurdles over should be quite achievable. 

I think some of the approach to funding in SL was mean-spirited, but other than that, David Argyle's TWP got everything they wanted tbh, including a huge concession and changing of the salary cap to allow them to smash through the lower division and challenge for the SL place. 

The sport of RL in this country has been welcoming to New clubs being admitted - we need to be careful of not creating a false narrative. The real narrative is that we have been skint and generally incompetent. 

[Dunbar]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

But if you were an investor, you would see a relatively easy pathway to the top division, with some hurdles you would need to overcome. Hopefully if you were a strategic investor like we are hopefully getting you would see that kicking these hurdles over should be quite achievable. 

Forgive me for a small sidebar here in a very serious discussion.  I love a good metaphor as much as the next man but aren't we supposed to be jumping these hurdles, not kicking them over.  Have you not seen Chariots of Fire!

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Forgive me for a small sidebar here in a very serious discussion.  I love a good metaphor as much as the next man but aren't we supposed to be jumping these hurdles, not kicking them over.  Have you not seen Chariots of Fire!

Haha, no, I'd like to think a proper strategic partner would kick these hurdles over so investors/clubs/partners aren't hampered by them. 

I'm talking about the governance and decision making really - and funding as per the discussion with Damien for example. If there was a real strategy underpinning the work going on in Canada it could have been much smoother. 

[The Future is League]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Then whether the US is the biggest market in the world is completely irrelevant to any discussion of Toronto RL.

That the US is the biggest sports market in the world is unchallenged unless you know different. If it isn't please state which country is

Canada has team that play in US sports competitions. Right or wrong?

Toronto was the games biggest chance of ever get a toe hold in that market, but Robert Elstone preferred having a team from a suburb of Wigan in instead, and remind me how much sponsorship did Elstone bring into Super League? and my money would be on he didn't bring in enough to cover him and his staff wages, but if you know any different please say.

Remind me again if our latest TV contract with sky is bigger than the last one we had with them or less? 

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, The Future is League said:

Some idiot thought it was a good idea to replace Toronto with a team in the borough of Wigan

Completely false 

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

That the US is the biggest sports market in the world is unchallenged unless you know different. If it isn't please state which country is

Canada has team that play in US sports competitions. Right or wrong?

Toronto was the games biggest chance of ever get a toe hold in that market, but Robert Elstone preferred having a team from a suburb of Wigan in instead, and remind me how much sponsorship did Elstone bring into Super League? and my money would be on he didn't bring in enough to cover him and his staff wages, but if you know any different please say.

Remind me again if our latest TV contract with sky is bigger than the last one we had with them or less? 

What’s the value of the latest Major League Rugby TV contract?

How smart was the strategy to gain access to the US TV market based around having a Canadian team playing in a British league?

[The Future is League]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

What’s the value of the latest Major League Rugby TV contract?

How smart was the strategy to gain access to the US TV market based around having a Canadian team playing in a British league?

Never answer a question with question, its bad English

Anyway you not answering my questions confirms i was 100% correct and you had no comeback.

Thanks for agreeing with me

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

Never answer a question with question, its bad English

So it writing "its" like that and not ending with a full stop.

[The Future is League]

Just now, gingerjon said:

So it writing "its" like that and not ending with a full stop.

Your failure to answer my question proves I'm right and its something you are struggling with

How the truth hurts you

Generally i have respect for your posts, but on the TWP debate you're light years away

[gingerjon]

Just now, The Future is League said:

Your failure to answer my question proves I'm right and its something you are struggling with

How the truth hurts you

Generally i have respect for your posts, but on the TWP debate you're light years away

Look, all I'm asking for is clarity on the how we were ever meant to go from a Canadian team playing in a British league to having any kind of worthwhile deal in the US TV market.

Because sports that are bigger than us that have multiple American and Canadian teams in their leagues do not have deals worth writing home about.

What were we going to do next

[Oxford]

55 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The real narrative is that we have been skint and generally incompetent. 

We are at least agreed on this point, Dave.

I think you tend to downplay some things I believe are crucial.

I'm not bothered and wasn't mithered about criticism of TWP.

RL is a small sport because it's limited by the ideas within and though they're not the only thing that prevent its progress they are important and if we learned anything it's that we're an expansion black hole. And maybe we shouldn't be even trying so that we don't leave people who came to love our sport in our wake.

[GUBRATS]

Basically having a NA team in a UK ( + 1 french ) league us daft , logistically it's just not workable , however we let them in , but ultimately a global pandemic came along and ended them 

They were NOT replaced by Leigh 

[GUBRATS]

4 hours ago, The Future is League said:

Some idiot thought it was a good idea to replace Toronto with a team in the borough of Wigan

Some idiot keeps posting that Leigh replaced Toronto , but they didn't 

[The Future is League]

19 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Look, all I'm asking for is clarity on the how we were ever meant to go from a Canadian team playing in a British league to having any kind of worthwhile deal in the US TV market.

Because sports that are bigger than us that have multiple American and Canadian teams in their leagues do not have deals worth writing home about.

What were we going to do next

Well it doesn't matter now. We have missed the boat regards having a deal of any sort with a US/Canadian TV channel with TWP's demise.

If anybody thinks we can grow the game in the UK by being a M62 sport they are deluded and we know playing numbers are down at all levels of the game and look at the demise of the  junior clubs in this mythical place called the heartlands.

If i was to win the Euro millions this coming Tuesday of over £100 million i think, i wouldn't invest in a M62 Rugby League club

Sadly SOME clubs would soon invest in a has been or never was player from the NRL instead of investing in junior development

[Dave T]

56 minutes ago, Oxford said:

We are at least agreed on this point, Dave.

I think you tend to downplay some things I believe are crucial.

I'm not bothered and wasn't mithered about criticism of TWP.

RL is a small sport because it's limited by the ideas within and though they're not the only thing that prevent its progress they are important and if we learned anything it's that we're an expansion black hole. And maybe we shouldn't be even trying so that we don't leave people who came to love our sport in our wake.

I think you are making it more profound than it is in your last para. 

Clubs come and go. When these clubs rise from nowhere, the fans are not stupid, they know they are an expansion project and they are risky. It's a shame if anyone is left without a club to follow, but if these things don't work, they don't work. 

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I think you are making it more profound than it is in your last para. 

Clubs come and go. When these clubs rise from nowhere, the fans are not stupid, they know they are an expansion project and they are risky. It's a shame if anyone is left without a club to follow, but if these things don't work, they don't work. 

I'm not sure how you got to that point, to be honest, Dave.

As an expansionist (Probably former) I now think that expansion is beyond RL's ability to achieve it, that all attempts will ultimately fail.

It is the EL Dorado of a sport and a sporting culture that has neither the will, nor the wherewithall to achieve it and in large part is against any attempt.

The question for this thread was about TWP fans and I think they are a legacy that RL should avoid repeating.

 

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, Oxford said:

I'm not sure how you got to that point, to be honest, Dave.

As an expansionist (Probably former) I now think that expansion is beyond RL's ability to achieve it, that all attempts will ultimately fail.

It is the EL Dorado of a sport and a sporting culture that has neither the will, nor the wherewithall to achieve it and in large part is against any attempt.

The question for this thread was about TWP fans and I think they are a legacy that RL should avoid repeating.

 

I know you are downbeat about it, but we just keep going and we'll try again when the circumstances are right. 

I don't think we would try Canada or US teams in SL, but I think we'll see more with France as time progresses, and I think we'll see more in the UK. 

We could have been depressed after PSG, and then after Gateshead, but we tried again. 

I do think it'll need some serious changes of leadership, but that will happen, when is the question. 

Good to see you back posting Oxford, hope you're keeping well. 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Dave T

[idrewthehaggis]

I will echo that as well. Glad you are you back Oxford. 

Funny in all the friendly discord in this thread, may I suggest that we seemingly are agreeing that TWP was a lost opportunity and the RFL demonstrated lacking again.

I tell you what though, where are our Canadian forumistas?

Edited May 1, 2022 by idrewthehaggis

[Big Picture]

6 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Then whether the US is the biggest market in the world is completely irrelevant to any discussion of Toronto RL.

Not really when you consider how integrated Canada and the US are when it comes pro sports, where apart from the minor league CFL every pro team in Canada plays in a league which is primarily based in the US.  In that context Toronto could be seen as an entry point into the US market (and clearly was by Pérez).

[GUBRATS]

But nobody factored in a global pandemic 

[Dave T]

16 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Not really when you consider how integrated Canada and the US are when it comes pro sports, where apart from the minor league CFL every pro team in Canada plays in a league which is primarily based in the US.  In that context Toronto could be seen as an entry point into the US market (and clearly was by Pérez).

That doesn't sound like a compelling argument for putting a pro Canadian team in a UK league.

[Big Picture]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

That doesn't sound like a compelling argument for putting a pro Canadian team in a UK league.

The whole experience shows what a long shot it was, Pérez knew full well that money from North American TV would require that more new clubs over here be added and all of them in the sort of A-list markets which could attract audiences for those North American TV networks, which would then have matches in time slots favourable to them attracting the required audiences every week of the season.

We know that after the Wolfpack started up the RFL received inquiries from a few interested parties over here, the rumour mill about that was quite active as I recall although few details emerged.  Chances are that like Pérez's initial group of investors they got cold feet when they were told they'd have to start at the bottom and play their way up through the divisions like the Wolfpack were made to do.

Maybe Pérez thought that the experience in Toronto would wow the decision makers in British RL and induce them to buy in, if so I'd suggest that he received a rude shock when that didn't happen.

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, idrewthehaggis said:

I will echo that as well. Glad you are you back Oxford. 

Funny in all the friendly discord in this thread, may I suggest that we seemingly are agreeing that TWP was a lost opportunity and the RFL demonstrated lacking again.

I tell you what though, where are our Canadian forumistas?

I miss the games and everything about the Wolfpack...it was alot of fun.   I've been following the NRL closely.  You've got to understand the great gains the Wolfpack made in Toronto.  Sure there were problems and then the Covid hit and that finished alot.  I don't see any expansion coming from the English league structure...they asked for a cake, they got the cake and then they returned it because it did not meet their satisfaction.  Case closed and a great opportunity lost....probably the dumbest error in the history of English RL circles in quite some time....not only did they look the gift horse in the mouth they then shot it in the head....Elstone was the trigger man.

[M j M]

2 hours ago, idrewthehaggis said:

Funny in all the friendly discord in this thread, may I suggest that we seemingly are agreeing that TWP was a lost opportunity and the RFL demonstrated lacking again.

Let's be precise: the RFL admitted Toronto to the league in the first place. And the RFL, along with St Helens, Leeds and Catalan voted to retain them in Super League in 2020. It was all the other SL clubs and Elstone who did the dirty deed.