Do ex Toronto fans still watch ?

[Oxford]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Indeed. I think there was a lot to learn,

Ah, the "lot we can learn from past failure" motif !

RL and learn in the same sentence without can't, never can or ever will to help.

There's a bunch of fairly weighty evidence on the throad from Streatham and Mitcham to TWP that might suggest otherwise.

You should know Dave, being a Wolves fan!

 

[Damien]

I find some of the arguments now being bandied about regarding Toronto insincere and completely ignore the biggest contributor to Toronto failing. 

Toronto failed because of Covid first and foremost. Its amazing how people can write long winded posts criticising them then completely ignored that. Far bigger and richer companies than Toronto failed or struggled due to Covid. With zero income and no Government support, unlike every other UK professional RL team, it was always going to be nigh on impossible to continue. 

No one know how things would have panned out. Arguments about millions and millions and rich investors not happening are disingenuous for me. The whole project never got that far due to Covid hitting just as Toronto got to Super League. They never actually got to play a home match in Toronto. No one got to really see the potential for Super League in Toronto to then sell anything to anyone.

That said when Covid happened I think the sport failed really and I don't think something that was very special should have just been allowed to disappear. 5 figure crowds in a major international city shouldn't have been dismissed so easily. Exceptional, once in a lifetime event caused their demise and I think there should have been more appreciation of the impact of this and that is would require a special, exceptional approach.

As much as anything I think Toronto was allowed to fail because Elstone didn't really want them in in the first place and he was busy trying to placate clubs to cling onto power. The report by his mates, full of inaccuracies, was a disgrace. At a time when the game needed real leadership he failed.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Ah, the "lot we can learn from past failure" motif !

RL and learn in the same sentence without can't, never can or ever will to help.

There's a bunch of fairly weighty evidence on the throad from Streatham and Mitcham to TWP that might suggest otherwise.

You should know Dave, being a Wolves fan!

 

I agree with this, and was going to post along those lines. We do learn some things, but then if it gets difficult we do go back to our standard approach. 

Unfortunately it all comes down to one thing - strong leadership 

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Damien said:

 

As much as anything I think Toronto was allowed to fail because Elstone didn't really want them in in the first place and he was busy trying to placate clubs to cling onto power. The report by his mates, full of inaccuracies, was a disgrace. At a time when the game needed real leadership he failed.

The ultimate challenge here is that TWP were not being run as a sustainable business, they were spending millions and millions of dollars to be what they were (which isn't a problem, they were still in the investment phase as a business), but once Argyle went then they become a very different thing. 

It wasn't Argyle's heavily funded TWP that was rejected, it was a guy who wanted to sell Toiletries. 

[gingerjon]

13 minutes ago, Damien said:

I find some of the arguments now being bandied about regarding Toronto insincere and completely ignore the biggest contributor to Toronto failing. 

Toronto failed because of Covid first and foremost. Its amazing how people can write long winded posts criticising them then completely ignored that. Far bigger and richer companies than Toronto failed or struggled due to Covid. With zero income and no Government support, unlike every other UK professional RL team, it was always going to be nigh on impossible to continue. 

No one know how things would have panned out. Arguments about millions and millions and rich investors not happening are disingenuous for me. The whole project never got that far due to Covid hitting just as Toronto got to Super League. They never actually got to play a home match in Toronto. No one got to really see the potential for Super League in Toronto to then sell anything to anyone.

That said when Covid happened I think the sport failed really and I don't think something that was very special should have just been allowed to disappear. 5 figure crowds in a major international city shouldn't have been dismissed so easily. Exceptional, once in a lifetime event caused their demise and I think there should have been more appreciation of the impact of this and that is would require a special, exceptional approach.

As much as anything I think Toronto was allowed to fail because Elstone didn't really want them in in the first place and he was busy trying to placate clubs to cling onto power. The report by his mates, full of inaccuracies, was a disgrace. At a time when the game needed real leadership he failed.

Toronto were failing to pay their bills long before Covid.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

The ultimate challenge here is that TWP were not being run as a sustainable business, they were spending millions and millions of dollars to be what they were (which isn't a problem, they were still in the investment phase as a business), but once Argyle went then they become a very different thing. 

It wasn't Argyle's heavily funded TWP that was rejected, it was a guy who wanted to sell Toiletries. 

I disagree. The decision had been made on TWP regardless of who the proposed buyer was. The report into them showed that.

[Damien]

Just now, gingerjon said:

Toronto were failing to pay their bills long before Covid.

And no other RL club have done that? Its wrong but let's not make out Toronto were unique in that.

It's really weird how people just want to ignore the impact of Covid.

[gingerjon]

Just now, Damien said:

And no other RL club have done that? Its wrong but let's not make out Toronto were unique in that.

It's really weird how people just want to ignore the impact of Covid.

Toronto are not unique.

But they were bankrolled by a self declared billionaire.

A billionaire who couldn't find the change to pay the bills before Covid and who couldn't locate any funds during it.

And the report was laughably bad by the way - we agree on that.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

I disagree. The decision had been made on TWP regardless of who the proposed buyer was. The report into them showed that.

We can all believe what we want, but that report is a convenient excuse. 

Basically the report said there is no financial value to for SL in Canada - which is true, Argyle had to pump millions and millions to create TWP. 

Anyone expecting a NA TV deal to pop up and fund all this is a dreamer.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

And no other RL club have done that? Its wrong but let's not make out Toronto were unique in that.

It's really weird how people just want to ignore the impact of Covid.

I'm not sure why you think people are ignoring Covid. 

Covid meant Argyle left. 

So a decision had to be made on TWP without its billionaire backer. That is a money pit. And it didn't sound like the Toiletries guy was the man to replace Argyle. 

[GUBRATS]

21 minutes ago, Damien said:

I find some of the arguments now being bandied about regarding Toronto insincere and completely ignore the biggest contributor to Toronto failing. 

Toronto failed because of Covid first and foremost. Its amazing how people can write long winded posts criticising them then completely ignored that. Far bigger and richer companies than Toronto failed or struggled due to Covid. With zero income and no Government support, unlike every other UK professional RL team, it was always going to be nigh on impossible to continue. 

No one know how things would have panned out. Arguments about millions and millions and rich investors not happening are disingenuous for me. The whole project never got that far due to Covid hitting just as Toronto got to Super League. They never actually got to play a home match in Toronto. No one got to really see the potential for Super League in Toronto to then sell anything to anyone.

That said when Covid happened I think the sport failed really and I don't think something that was very special should have just been allowed to disappear. 5 figure crowds in a major international city shouldn't have been dismissed so easily. Exceptional, once in a lifetime event caused their demise and I think there should have been more appreciation of the impact of this and that is would require a special, exceptional approach.

As much as anything I think Toronto was allowed to fail because Elstone didn't really want them in in the first place and he was busy trying to placate clubs to cling onto power. The report by his mates, full of inaccuracies, was a disgrace. At a time when the game needed real leadership he failed.

I said at the time Toronto should have been put in ' deep freeze ' until the pandemic was over , then taking their place in SL once the world opened up again 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

I said at the time Toronto should have been put in ' deep freeze ' until the pandemic was over , then taking their place in SL once the world opened up again 

It is interesting to see how the other international comps dealt with this. I think the South African teams in Pro 14 did what you say. 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

I said at the time Toronto should have been put in ' deep freeze ' until the pandemic was over , then taking their place in SL once the world opened up again 

I remember you saying that at the time and I was in agreement. I think it would have been the sensible thing to do.

[GUBRATS]

Sport was only allowed to continue because it provided something to put onto TV that wasn't old repeats or news about Covid , it was used as a moral booster 

But Toronto were unique , and a unique answer was required to a unique problem 

If at the resumption of normal conditions David Argyle was unable to continue financing , then decisions would have had to have been made then , but any solution forced during the pandemic was wrong 

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure why you think people are ignoring Covid. 

Covid meant Argyle left. 

So a decision had to be made on TWP without its billionaire backer. That is a money pit. And it didn't sound like the Toiletries guy was the man to replace Argyle. 

Because on the last page there was. All the usual disingenuous arguments about promises of NA TV deals and rich investors not being delivered while ignoring the thing that forced them out of business before they even played a SL game in Toronto.

I am purposely not getting into rehashed arguments about funding and what should have been done as I know we disagree.

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, Damien said:

Because on the last page there was. All the usual disingenuous arguments about promises of NA TV deals and rich investors not being delivered while ignoring the thing that forced them out of business before they even played a SL game in Toronto.

I am purposely not getting into rehashed arguments about funding and what should have been done as I know we disagree.

Those posts must have been deleted now then. Because there aren't any that claim what you say. 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Those posts must have been deleted now then. Because there aren't any that claim what you say. 

I suggest you read closer then

1 hour ago, steve oates said:

The "Millions and Millions" return was supposedly going to come from North American Television but that could only really have come if rich American investors and quality American players had got on board. None did.

 

[Damien]

19 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Sport was only allowed to continue because it provided something to put onto TV that wasn't old repeats or news about Covid , it was used as a moral booster 

But Toronto were unique , and a unique answer was required to a unique problem 

If at the resumption of normal conditions David Argyle was unable to continue financing , then decisions would have had to have been made then , but any solution forced during the pandemic was wrong 

It would have been a very sensible solution to a unique problem. There was little to lose in taking such an approach. 

As I said before I simply don't think the will was there and Elstone was more interested in self preservation.

[Toby Chopra]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

We know that the UK market is probably worth £25 to £40m for SL. We also know that TWP cost millions and millions over its few years in existence. To make this gamble worthwhile, you really need to be considering how we can get say £10m per year in extra. 

I think that either needs self-funding (which many don't like for some reason), or it needs the game to fund it at a substantial cost and risk. It doesn't feel like a sensible risk in the slightest for the game to do that. 

If we were going to invest millions in growth/expansion (which I believe we should), imho it should be in the UK and France. 

Agreed

[Dave T]

16 minutes ago, Damien said:

I suggest you read closer then

 

Steve's posts were fair and that is an out of context snippet. 

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, Damien said:

It would have been a very sensible solution to a unique problem. There was little to lose in taking such an approach. 

As I said before I simply don't think the will was there and Elstone was more interested in self preservation.

The problem was that Argyle had already walked and pulled his club out. 

It was a new person bidding to own the club, so even if they had frozen them, if they though the shaving guy was a cowboy, he'd still be a cowboy in 2022.

I think they could have announced that a bid would be welcome from TWP in another 2/3 years to remove some of the time pressures that were evident, which may have allowed for a real backer to come forward. 

Once Argyle walked, the whole thing became problematic. 

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Steve's posts were fair and that is an out of context snippet. 

Oh come on Dave, you are much better than that. You made a claim, you were wrong and now say it's out of context. The context of most of the last page is quite clear and it was a pile on making the same old tired claims. There's nothing wrong in that but don't be surprised if people have an alternative view. 

[The Future is League]

3 hours ago, Eddie said:

What’s that got to do with Leigh?

Some idiot thought it was a good idea to replace Toronto with a team in the borough of Wigan

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

Oh come on Dave, you are much better than that. You made a claim, you were wrong and now say it's out of context. The context of most of the last page is quite clear and it was a pile on making the same old tired claims. There's nothing wrong in that but don't be surprised if people have an alternative view. 

If you aren't prepared to read posts, and debate normally, just looking for gotchas then I'm not interested. 

Steve made a couple of posts that were lengthy and made good points, but you call out one line (which is factually true) and describe that as a pile on and claim it is multiple posts. 

Happy to leave this discussion here. 

[Dave T]

On 29/04/2022 at 13:50, Scubby said:

You just need to compare the 10s of millions poured into the Warriors by the NRL over the last couple of years to ensure the long term outlook of the game. The RFL would have binned the Warriors off and made them pay for travel.

The NRL/ARL have made expansion teams fund travel. I wouldn't be surprised if we copied that model off them. 

It is also quite rare for expansion teams to be added in with no financial input.