Sylvain Houles says Toulouse should be exempt from relegation

[Tubby]

17 hours ago, Oxford said:

I can see where you're coming from with that argument Harry but it is far more likely that with each change made it was sold and accepted as the only way forward and then it was followed by a load of tinkering, messing about , shilly shallying and then finding a new way forward five minutes later. Every one of them came with a free bottle of snake oil medicine.

The M62 coming into being just meant people set off too late and arrived often as not after the kick off.

I've come to the conclusion that injuries in particular may result in relegation and suspensions are just the icing on this cake.

I think you're absolutely right about that.  In essence I think you and I agree that P&R is necessary in RL, but we have different views on how it should be administered, that I think can be explained by the relative positions of Salford and Featherstone.

[Oxford]

3 minutes ago, Tubby said:

that I think can be explained by the relative positions of Salford and Featherstone.

I try to not make it about SRD when talking about relegation but it's bound to colour your judgement at times.

Mind you on this very forum, even when Salford have earned the right to stay in SL, it has been argued that they should be in the Championship.

I have a lot of time for Fev and Leigh and would love to see them in SL ( even though Fev is the only palce I've been in a fans coach being attacked). Fev have often said when they didn't feel the time was right for them to be promoted and they obviously feel that the time has come. Both Leigh and Fev worry me with the amount they're spending at present. Chasing the dream can be as seducutive as it is destructive.

 

[Tubby]

3 minutes ago, Oxford said:

I try to not make it about SRD when talking about relegation but it's bound to colour your judgement at times.

Mind you on this very forum, even when Salford have earned the right to stay in SL, it has been argued that they should be in the Championship.

I have a lot of time for Fev and Leigh and would love to see them in SL ( even though Fev is the only palce I've been in a fans coach being attacked). Fev have often said when they didn't feel the time was right for them to be promoted and they obviously feel that the time has come. Both Leigh and Fev worry me with the amount they're spending at present. Chasing the dream can be as seducutive as it is destructive.

 

Agreed.

I'm sorry you experienced such at Featherstone and I'm glad it hasn't turned you against us.  IMO, if you finish in the relegation places, you deserve to go down; otherwise, you don't. 

Being a fan of a smaller team, I'm pretty much always on the side of the underdog, so I love to see SRD beating the so called big boys.

With regard to the finances of Featherstone & Leigh, I tend to hope they are using some judgement, as one or the other of them isn't going up.  But if they are daft enough to put themselves at risk, then that is their responsibility although it is the fans that will suffer.

[Mattrhino]

18 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Is the reason for a club being relegated in the first place not mismanagement, either in the boardroom and the playing roster it provides for the coach, or the coaching team not being able to prepare their charges well enough, over the course of a season would injuries and suspensions  be a root cause to finish bottom.

There are only 12 clubs its pretty easy to have one bad year then bam the club is fighting for its existence. If the club doesn't have a rich benefactor then you go into Administration. 

Now we have clubs like Bradford and Widnes who are nothing but shells of themselves. It could also have been Hull KR if it wasn't for Hudgell. And what is it all for? Some ideology that there needs to be some jeopardy at the end of the season. I don't think it should come to killing off the small amount of full time clubs for the sake of P&R

[Mattrhino]

19 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Two points on that, 2 divisions were first tried in the early 60's, but for the majority of Rugby Leagues existance we operated with a East and West of the Pennines Format every club in the league did not play each other, so no requirement to operate a P&R system, the main reason that we could operate 2 divisions properly was the often mentioned 'M62' coming into being, it made trans Pennine games far more easy and accessible.

So your argument is that my statement was correct.

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, Tubby said:

I'm pretty much always on the side of the underdog

Me too.

Which bring me to the main point of why P&R  is useless. The inequalities from those clubs (usual suspects) who manage to line their trophy cabinets with assumed and totally expected regularity and the rest are too great. Which means it's another group of reprobates who fight for survival.

If you want people to turn up in numbers sport needs surprises and competitiveness for the whole season.

P&R is a means of achieving this picture year on year becuase there is little way out for those at the bottom, because of this even dyed in the wool (love that phrase!) TGG fans have been turned off .

If we never address those inequalities and ensure competitive matches throughout the season we never will progress.

This can't be done with eternal instability and panic or  P&R.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Mattrhino said:

So your argument is that my statement was correct.

Excepting for you saying we followed Soccer, which as I pointed out the reason we played trans Pennine was the M62.

[Tubby]

12 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Me too.

Which bring me to the main point of why P&R  is useless. The inequalities from those clubs (usual suspects) who manage to line their trophy cabinets with assumed and totally expected regularity and the rest are too great. Which means it's another group of reprobates who fight for survival.

If you want people to turn up in numbers sport needs surprises and competitiveness for the whole season.

P&R is a means of achieving this picture year on year becuase there is little way out for those at the bottom, because of this even dyed in the wool (love that phrase!) TGG fans have been turned off .

If we never address those inequalities and ensure competitive matches throughout the season we never will progress.

This can't be done with eternal instability and panic or  P&R.

And conversely, in my opinion, it can't be done adequately without P&R.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Mattrhino said:

There are only 12 clubs its pretty easy to have one bad year then bam the club is fighting for its existence. If the club doesn't have a rich benefactor then you go into Administration. 

Now we have clubs like Bradford and Widnes who are nothing but shells of themselves. It could also have been Hull KR if it wasn't for Hudgell. And what is it all for? Some ideology that there needs to be some jeopardy at the end of the season. I don't think it should come to killing off the small amount of full time clubs for the sake of P&R

No, it is to be equal to all teams in having the opportunity to play at the top level and enjoying the additional benefits that go along with it, I would consider it total self denial on your part if you said to me that every team presently in SL deserves to stay there for ever and no other clubs should ever have the audacity and ambition to join them, you highlight Bradford and Widnes why are they still not in SL?  

It was whilst in SL that Bradford went into administration in 2012 hardly the fault of P&R it was a closed shop, they also followed that up with administration in '14 and '16 before being liquidated in '17, Widnes being granted a licence entered SL in 2012 (after being denied one in 2009 financial difficulties being sited) and after struggling for a number of seasons were relegated in '18 do you also put that down to P&R or something waiting to happen with how the club was run and managed.

In a nutshell the team that finishes bottom of SL should be relegated, and the best team of the Championship swopping places with them, so not an ideology but a reward for wanting to better yourself and a penalty for not being able avoid last place.

Since the closed shop came into being, 5 or so teams have always been up and about at the top, but there are others who have been happy to just do enough to stay in SL and without the funding would most probably have not stayed there, by what given right should they at the expense of other clubs keep enjoying this condition.

[Harry Stottle]

55 minutes ago, Oxford said:

This can't be done with eternal instability and panic or  P&R.

As I implied in my previous post, there are teams that simply would not survive in SL but for the funding, that instability and panic as you put it in my opinion having P&R makes them try all that harder to maintain it, given the cosy world of results don't matter they woukd drop their standards.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[Oxford]

55 minutes ago, Tubby said:

it can't be done adequately without P&R.

Where has P&R proven to equalise competition?

Where has P&R proven it's good for the health of clubs?

14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

given the cosy world of results don't matter they woukd drop their standards.

Now this to me is one of those ideas that turns up again and again without proof. I talked about ensuring that it is compeitive and that P&R most often ensures that it isn't.

Losing is a cosy world for no one.

[fighting irish]

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

Where has P&R proven to equalise competition?

Where has P&R proven it's good for the health of clubs?

Now this to me is one of those ideas that turns up again and again without proof. I talked about ensuring that it is compeitive and that P&R most often ensures that it isn't.

Losing is a cosy world for no one.

I'm leaning towards you, in this argument Oxford.

I too believe that relegation can spell financial disaster for clubs, which could lead to oblivion, or take years to recover from but I can see the point of view, of 'Arry and the others who don't want aspiring clubs to be locked out.

Some have suggested retaining P&R but under a different format, such as counting aggregate scores over 3 or 4 years, in order to decide who's relegated, or protecting newly promoted clubs for a season (or two, or three) in order to let them ''settle in''.

Do you have an idea, for improving the situation (making it less hazardous) financially, for the relegated (and promoted clubs)?

 

[Oxford]

32 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I'm leaning towards you, in this argument Oxford.

I too believe that relegation can spell financial disaster for clubs, which could lead to oblivion, or take years to recover from but I can see the point of view, of 'Arry and the others who don't want aspiring clubs to be locked out.

Some have suggested retaining P&R but under a different format, such as counting aggregate scores over 3 or 4 years, in order to decide who's relegated, or protecting newly promoted clubs for a season (or two, or three) in order to let them ''settle in''.

Do you have an idea, for improving the situation (making it less hazardous) financially, for the relegated (and promoted clubs)?

 

The spiral which has some clubs losing players every season and others taking their pick is a symptom of the problem but not the root cause.

While people continue to think P&R is the Be all and end all this spiral and ( Incoming Mixed Metaphor) and the yoyo and disaster effects will carry on.

It wouldn't seem unlikely that people prefer it that way.

If, for example, we weighted the monies towards the upper championship and lower SL this might be balanced slightly. However, you'd still have to counteract the  "rewarding mediocrity" argument that is bound to resurface ... yet again.

You could also take the top two up and not relegate.

If you then made the criteria for moving up clear and transparent, and wrote them in stone everyone would be certain about what's needed and there would be a sensible pathway in place.

I admit these are off the top of my head and would need some thought put in and work as well.

I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to make things happen in a more sensible way.

One thing is always quite clear and that is relegation is only seen as problematic when it's the likes of Leeds or Wigan.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Oxford

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, Oxford said:

You could also take the top two up and not relegate.

Yep that will work for one season only, unless of course SL is set to grow and grow in numbers, or are you condemning all the other Championship clubs to be locked out forever?

As I asked you previously in what would you say if SRD were to locked out for your "10 years of stability" from SL which you said NO you wouldn't like it, your argument does hint of the self preservation society, would you say a club like say a Halifax or Whitehaven towns who have very good amatuer clubs and produces many professional player's probably more than a lot of SL clubs would have fared any different than SRD had they been privvy to £20M+ funding over the years?

Don't think for one second this is a witch hunt against SRD, I have been many times over the years and shouted for them as if they were my own, I would much sooner go to watch Salford than my other 3 illustrious neighbours.

 

[Davo5]

2 minutes ago, Oxford said:

The spiral which has some clubs losing players every season and others taking their pick is a symptom of the problem but not the root cause.

While people continue to the P&R is the Be all and end all this spiral and ( Incoming Mixed Metaphor) and the yoyo and disaster effects will carry on.

It wouldn't seem unlikely that people prefer it that way.

If, for example, we weighted the monies towards the upper championship and lower SL this might be balanced slightly. However, you'd still have to counteract the  "rewarding mediocrity" argument that is bound to resurface ... yet again.

You could also take the top two up and not relegate.

If you then made the criteria for moving up clear and transparent, and wrote them in stone everyone would be certain about what's needed and there would be a sensible pathway in place.

I admit these are off the top of my head and would need some thought put in and work as well.

I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to make things happen in a more sensible way.

Let’s face it there are only 2 clubs in the Championship anywhere near Superleague standard,promote both to make a 14 club Superleague and give them a 4 year license with stringent enforceable standards that applies to all 14 clubs with player development,stadia & full salary cap spend to the fore.

The Championship then becomes a really competitive comp and if clubs with genuine Superleague aspirations & resources(Newcastle/York) for example  thrive & continue to develop over those 4 yrs they can either apply to join Superleague or judged against a current Superleague club who may have fallen short of the standards over the 4 year licensing period.

 

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Let’s face it there are only 2 clubs in the Championship anywhere near Superleague standard,promote both to make a 14 club Superleague and give them a 4 year license with stringent enforceable standards that applies to all 14 clubs with player development,stadia & full salary cap spend to the fore.

The Championship then becomes a really competitive comp and if clubs with genuine Superleague aspirations & resources(Newcastle/York) for example  thrive & continue to develop over those 4 yrs they can either apply to join Superleague or judged against a current Superleague club who may have fallen short of the standards over the 4 year licensing period.

 

Are you also locking the trapdoor for 4 years Dav? I do feel that the Championship clubs fans owners/benefactors would desert with nothing to play for as in promotion.

And, do you honestly see that becoming a reality in that the smaller contract pot would have to be split 14 ways instead of 12, and this from clubs who you consider tight from your previous comments in demanding Toulouse pay for travel costs to visit them?

[Davo5]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Are you also locking the trapdoor for 4 years Dav? I do feel that the Championship clubs fans owners/benefactors would desert with nothing to play for as in promotion.

And, do you honestly see that becoming a reality in that the smaller contract pot would have to be split 14 ways instead of 12, and this from clubs who you consider tight from your previous comments in demanding Toulouse pay for travel costs to visit them?

Yeah no P&R for those 4 yrs,I’d say the fans,benefactors,owners of those clubs  remaining in the Championship are realists,at least half of them are currently happy for Championship survival,and winning a Grand Final even without promotion is something worth playing for.

Its only my thoughts on the subject and an alternative to the failing system of P&R we currently have so I have no idea if it could become reality.

[Tommygilf]

29 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Are you also locking the trapdoor for 4 years Dav? I do feel that the Championship clubs fans owners/benefactors would desert with nothing to play for as in promotion.

And, do you honestly see that becoming a reality in that the smaller contract pot would have to be split 14 ways instead of 12, and this from clubs who you consider tight from your previous comments in demanding Toulouse pay for travel costs to visit them?

What exactly are the other Championship clubs playing for now Harry? 

[Scubby]

37 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Let’s face it there are only 2 clubs in the Championship anywhere near Superleague standard,promote both to make a 14 club Superleague and give them a 4 year license with stringent enforceable standards that applies to all 14 clubs with player development,stadia & full salary cap spend to the fore.

The Championship then becomes a really competitive comp and if clubs with genuine Superleague aspirations & resources(Newcastle/York) for example  thrive & continue to develop over those 4 yrs they can either apply to join Superleague or judged against a current Superleague club who may have fallen short of the standards over the 4 year licensing period.

 

There is merits for 2023 and 2024 without relegation and 14 clubs then introduced for 2025. The chasing pack to Leigh and Fev as so far behind in terms of infrastructure and playing strength that is would be irresponsible to promote them into the top flight. The biggest beast of all - Bradford - has rarely been further away from being SL promotion material.

[Davo5]

36 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

What exactly are the other Championship clubs playing for now Harry? 

Four or five are playing for survival,the rest for a playoff place that might yield a memorable win or two which will have the director’s suffering sleepless nights,but will end convincingly when facing the top two.

[Tommygilf]

On cue, with a hilarious opening gambit:

"I'd start by asking what his reaction would have been if I had said that when he was trying to take our place in Super League and the shoe was on the other foot and the same principle applied"

Presumably the response would be "but you're not a French club Mr Beaumont?"

[Tommygilf]

25 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Four or five are playing for survival,the rest for a playoff place that might yield a memorable win or two which will have the director’s suffering sleepless nights,but will end convincingly when facing the top two.

Not promotion then!

[Davo5]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Not promotion then!

No,which will be of great relief to most of the clubs fans & directors.

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yep that will work for one season only, unless of course SL is set to grow and grow in numbers, or are you condemning all the other Championship clubs to be locked out forever?

As I asked you previously in what would you say if SRD were to locked out for your "10 years of stability" from SL which you said NO you wouldn't like it, your argument does hint of the self preservation society, would you say a club like say a Halifax or Whitehaven towns who have very good amatuer clubs and produces many professional player's probably more than a lot of SL clubs would have fared any different than SRD had they been privvy to £20M+ funding over the years?

Don't think for one second this is a witch hunt against SRD, I have been many times over the years and shouted for them as if they were my own, I would much sooner go to watch Salford than my other 3 illustrious neighbours.

 

Harry I don't take offence or suspect conspiracies.

I didn't and have never said clubs should be locked out.

What I did say was that the criteria should be clear for eveyone to get in SL. The should not be arbitary and should  reflect SL as it is not the pipe dream they'd like it to be.

There is no doubt a draft system would be an effective way forward but I think there legal implications.

Putting my SRD hat on I have argued this same thing when they were in the championship. And it is also annoying that local amateurs can't follow a pathway through a Red devils academy and end up at the Wolves.

The thing about the RFL is that they're quite likely to look at SL and then make up criteria that exclude a few in order to down size the competition and make the pot have bigger shares for the rest.

[DEANO]

On 04/05/2022 at 09:44, Oxford said:

Well I don't think the inconsistent meant you, Harry.

The problem is that believing in P&R or being anti is one thing but paying no attention to the consequences is quite another.

I also understand your point about irrelevant fixtures. Though to be honest I'd trade knowing where my team stands for the next decade over even the drama of SRD v HKR golden point moments..... and we won that time!

If the signicance is survival (or even promotion) that can't be a positive for the sport on the whole and far too many negative things for the game can stem from this. The emphasis of both these is short term fixes, thinking and culture which means clubs can't think long term and undertake sensible economic planning. Leigh and Fev, at the moment show classic signs of this as much as Sylvain Houles and Leeds.

My feeling is that just playing a game in order to win it should be "significant" enough for any side in the competition and any fan of any side. If the drama is not enough between winning and losing what is sport for?

 

 

If you really believe that there would be no end of season play off. The whole point of the play offs is to keep the season alive for half the league. Same should apply at the bottom regarding relegation