Sylvain Houles says Toulouse should be exempt from relegation

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I have seen little evidence that if we shorten our season games feel more like events and we get substantial increases - which is what would be needed to offset a reduction

This is not necessarily an argument for shortening the season.

Increase in footprint and crowds is much more to do with selling the event than with the length of season.

I do agree though that very often we are reacting to arguments put forward on here that are more about feeings, upsets and preferences than actuality

[Davo5]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Those without ambition Dave?

Yes we have had this conversation before Tommy, and when the closed shop was mentioned a lot of supporters - those of Championship clubs with ambition, not the ones who are just happy to make up the numbers - concurred and said they would lose interest if the dangling carrot of promotion was taken away, but in my opinion P&R won't go away if it did it would deprive the TV companies of much needed variety to air, SL on it's own and the race for Old Trafford is not enough, they will be insistent of it remaining.

No just the realistic ones.

Yeah but most of those supporters are probably either dead or have no memory of saying it.

Were Leigh getting much fewer fans than the 2.500 they are getting now ? 
 

[Oxford]

20 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Those without ambition Dave?

Every club has ambition and desire that's another unhelpful myth, Harry.

[Oxford]

4 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

or have no memory of saying it.

Don't talk about me like I'm not here!

[fighting irish]

4 hours ago, Jughead said:

It dulls the appetite for existing fans, I’m not sure anyone outside the sport is bothered either way regarding loop games. 

Not sure why you’ve resorted to throwing odd insults around but that’s up to you, I suppose. 

I personally find any plan for growth that is largely based around lower league clubs being elevated and protected in an overly complicated and needless structure a race to the bottom scenario, that doesn’t really appear to be of any use to the majority, just a very small minority of existing second tier clubs of which some are way off from Super League and another couple throwing money at the league at present. 

We currently play twenty-seven weekly rounds in Super League (of which, many are pretty tepid and not really that interesting to existing fans let alone new fans) and I think the majority acknowledge that some form change is required. The vast majority of proposals posted here appear to be a continuation of that, with many somehow thinking that changing from twenty-seven games to…er, twenty seven games with two teams fewer or two more teams would result in massive change and that there would be a huge influx of interest, money, new participants and spectators to the game. I find it hard to follow that trail of thought. 

Let me say first of all, that I appreciate you taking the time to explain in more detail what you really mean.

One-line, (unsubstantiated) statements of ''fact'' without any supporting or explanatory commentary can be tiresome and (appear arrogant) and even seem insulting, especially if they are laced with innuendo, or implication.

 I'm tired of cliche so please forgive me for pointing them out.

I'm happy to engage with opposing views, as long as there's enough information for me to understand your arguments.

I have to say that I'm still unsure exactly what you claim, dulls the appetite, for existing fans?

Now to my suggestion -  

Sylvain Houles is drawing attention to the fact that they are struggling to adjust to the pace and pressure of Super League.

My suggestion was an attempt to provide a solution to that problem only, (acknowledging that the existing system makes it very difficult for newly promoted teams to settle in).

The idea also leaves the door open for aspiring teams to enter (when ready) and so removes the anathema ''closed shop'' that Harry is so opposed to, keeping alive the hopes of all fans throughout the game.

By moving to 14 teams, the loop fixtures would be eliminated.

I said earlier that this suggestion alone, will not solve all the games ills, but (I think) will ease the situation for newly promoted ambitious teams, struggling to make the transition to Super League.

I can see that my long-winded post may have made it seem more complicated than it really is but it's actually very simple. In a nutshell, I'm suggesting that a newly promoted team can play for 2 seasons without fear of relegation but then must compete with all the others in their third season.

One final point, it's my personal view, that expanding into France (Europe) will eventually reap rewards for the game, improving France's uptake (and World Cup chances) whereas shrinking back to the M62 shows a complete lack of ambition for the game and some real short term anxieties, which may put off potential sponsors.

Edited May 6, 2022 by fighting irish

[Jughead]

10 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Let me say first of all, that I appreciate you taking the time to explain in more detail what you really mean.

One-line, (unsubstantiated) statements of ''fact'' without any supporting or explanatory commentary can be tiresome and (appear arrogant) and even seem insulting, especially if they are laced with innuendo, or implication.

 I'm tired of cliche so please forgive me for pointing them out.

I'm happy to engage with opposing views, as long as there's enough information for me to understand your arguments.

I have to say that I'm still unsure exactly what you claim, dulls the appetite, for existing fans?

Now to my suggestion -  

Sylvain Houles is drawing attention to the fact that they are struggling to adjust to the pace and pressure of Super League.

My suggestion was an attempt to provide a solution to that problem only, (acknowledging that the existing system makes it very difficult for newly promoted teams to settle in).

The idea also leaves the door open for aspiring teams to enter (when ready) and so removes the anathema ''closed shop'' that Harry is so opposed to, keeping alive the hopes of all fans throughout the game.

By moving to 14 teams, the loop fixtures would be eliminated.

I said earlier that this suggestion alone, will not solve all the games ills, but (I think) will ease the situation for newly promoted ambitious teams, struggling to make the transition to Super League.

I can see that my long-winded post may have made it seem more complicated than it really is but it's actually very simple. In a nutshell, I'm suggesting that a newly promoted team can play for 2 seasons without fear of relegation but then must compete with all the others in their third season.

One final point, it's my personal view, that expanding into France (Europe) will eventually reap rewards for the game, improving France's uptake (and World Cup chances) whereas shrinking back to the M62 shows a complete lack of ambition for the game and some real short term anxieties, which may put off potential sponsors.

I don’t believe the appetite for casual viewers or new audiences is dulled by loop fixtures when they’re either barely watching or don’t currently watch. Loop fixtures are only an issue for those who are existing fans. Whilst we need to be mindful of existing fans, it’s also worth taking into account new audiences and converting casual viewers into more regular viewers of the sport both in person at games and on TV. 

My issue with your suggestion and the majority of suggestions on here is the makeup of the twenty-seven/twenty-games we have clubs playing. We currently have clubs playing 13 home games a year made up of just regular rounds of Super League, most suggestions I see on here are clubs playing 13 home games made up of regular rounds of Super League and it appears to me to be merely cosmetic changes and I question what the actual changes are for and how they’re expected to yield different results from now. 

I also find suggestions of convoluted systems of promotion and relegation a little bit needless, too. If we are to continue with promotion and relegation, do we really need to make it confusing and a bit gimmicky? We have, at very best, sixteen clubs (though this isn’t a definite and I’m thinking the four non-SL sides are Leigh, Fev, York and Newcastle) who are either completely full-time or have a hybrid system. Let’s be honest, there’s a few clubs in the Championship hoping former glories return somehow but realistically, they’re all a way off Super League. I question what the point of having these professional clubs outside of the elite level actually is and whether they and the game would be best served putting all professional clubs together, drawing a line in the sand and then working out a structure that suits them. 

[Jughead]

Degsy has tweeted “it costs your fans to attend” as a genuine argument as to why the game doesn’t need Toulouse. I look forward to open gates at Leigh for away fans next year, then. 

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, Jughead said:

I don’t believe the appetite for casual viewers or new audiences is dulled by loop fixtures when they’re either barely watching or don’t currently watch. Loop fixtures are only an issue for those who are existing fans. Whilst we need to be mindful of existing fans, it’s also worth taking into account new audiences and converting casual viewers into more regular viewers of the sport both in person at games and on TV. 

My issue with your suggestion and the majority of suggestions on here is the makeup of the twenty-seven/twenty-games we have clubs playing. We currently have clubs playing 13 home games a year made up of just regular rounds of Super League, most suggestions I see on here are clubs playing 13 home games made up of regular rounds of Super League and it appears to me to be merely cosmetic changes and I question what the actual changes are for and how they’re expected to yield different results from now. 

I also find suggestions of convoluted systems of promotion and relegation a little bit needless, too. If we are to continue with promotion and relegation, do we really need to make it confusing and a bit gimmicky? We have, at very best, sixteen clubs (though this isn’t a definite and I’m thinking the four non-SL sides are Leigh, Fev, York and Newcastle) who are either completely full-time or have a hybrid system. Let’s be honest, there’s a few clubs in the Championship hoping former glories return somehow but realistically, they’re all a way off Super League. I question what the point of having these professional clubs outside of the elite level actually is and whether they and the game would be best served putting all professional clubs together, drawing a line in the sand and then working out a structure that suits them. 

Money or lack of it and or even enough quality players prevents it from happening Juggy, it is presently hard enough equipping 12 clubs with the required quality and so has you pointed out yourself player's from the relegated team find there way into the promoted team, how are you going to furnish 4 teams worth with the required quality. It is obvious why both Leigh and Fev have gone overseas in search of better talent it is just not available here.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Davo5 said:

No just the realistic ones.

Yeah but most of those supporters are probably either dead or have no memory of saying it.

Were Leigh getting much fewer fans than the 2.500 they are getting now ? 
 

In the early days of Licencing about 1200.

The 2500 for London and Sheffield games is quite rightly as you are intimating terrible, but are Leigh a victim of the push for promotion and having assembled a squad that is proving to be far too good for seemingly all bar one of the opposition, the last 4 games has seen 174 points for and only 12 against, I for one think twice before attending these days as I get no pleasure in one sided affairs even when my team is winning.

[Jughead]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Money or lack of it and or even enough quality players prevents it from happening Juggy, it is presently hard enough equipping 12 clubs with the required quality and so has you pointed out yourself player's from the relegated team find there way into the promoted team, how are you going to furnish 4 teams worth with the required quality. It is obvious why both Leigh and Fev have gone overseas in search of better talent it is just not available here.

And how does anyone improve if they’re outside of the fold? It’s something I think should be looked at. 

[Davo5]

6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

In the early days of Licencing about 1200.

The 2500 for London and Sheffield games is quite rightly as you are intimating terrible, but are Leigh a victim of the push for promotion and having assembled a squad that is proving to be far too good for seemingly all bar one of the opposition, the last 4 games has seen 174 points for and only 12 against, I for one think twice before attending these days as I get no pleasure in one sided affairs even when my team is winning.

So I’d hazard a guess the rest of the Championship would be glad to see the back of teams throwing daft money at promotion and leave the to compete in a then highly competitive league.

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, Jughead said:

And how does anyone improve if they’re outside of the fold? It’s something I think should be looked at. 

No way on God's earth could York or Newcastle be promoted for a considerable time in my opinion, and I should imagine there would be a few SL teams looking over their shoulder at what is happening at the LSV and Post Office Rd, others in SL may have sympathy for the team that fails from those two in its bid for promotion but I very strongly suggest they will not do anything about it simply because it means less funding coming into their clubs.

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

So I’d hazard a guess the rest of the Championship would be glad to see the back of teams throwing daft money at promotion and leave the to compete in a then highly competitive league.

Firstly, it will only prove daft money for one of those teams, the other could say it was a sound investment, they would have speculated then get the accumulation of much more funding and expected better attendances in the following year.

Secondly, I can go and watch a competitive game of RL anywhere even U'13s and U15's should I please, but yes to save embarrassment on the field I guess some of the Championship clubs would like to see the back of those two teams, but I doubt that would apply to all of them.

[Davo5]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Firstly, it will only prove daft money for one of those teams, the other could say it was a sound investment, they would have speculated then get the accumulation of much more funding and expected better attendances in the following year.

Secondly, I can go and watch a competitive game of RL anywhere even U'13s and U15's should I please, but yes to save embarrassment on the field I guess some of the Championship clubs would like to see the back of those two teams, but I doubt that would apply to all of them.

Hopefully you can get your fix watching those U13/U15 games when you boycott Leigh if the sport sees sense and gets rid of a failing P&R system.

[Jughead]

15 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

No way on God's earth could York or Newcastle be promoted for a considerable time in my opinion, and I should imagine there would be a few SL teams looking over their shoulder at what is happening at the LSV and Post Office Rd, others in SL may have sympathy for the team that fails from those two in its bid for promotion but I very strongly suggest they will not do anything about it simply because it means less funding coming into their clubs.

I doubt many are bothered by what’s happening at Leigh and Featherstone tbh. Twelve of the Leigh twenty-one man squad this weekend are from the Southern Hemisphere, unless all of them have grandmothers from Europe, a number will leave at the end of the season, by which time the majority of the recruitment for Super League will be done and the promoted side will, as ever, be recruiting from Toulouse and the Championship before bringing in a load more Australians when the damage has been done come May time. 

[Scubby]

If the answer is Toulouse and Wakefield making rash expensive signings in the second half of the season to avoid the drop, and Fev and Leigh loading their squad with NRL mercenaries desperately trying to get promotion - then what is the bloody question?

[Harry Stottle]

15 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Hopefully you can get your fix watching those U13/U15 games when you boycott Leigh if the sport sees sense and gets rid of a failing P&R system.

Always said I would go just to the community games Dav if P&R was no more.

[Oxford]

10 minutes ago, Scubby said:

If the answer is Toulouse and Wakefield making rash expensive signings in the second half of the season to avoid the drop, and Fev and Leigh loading their squad with NRL mercenaries desperately trying to get promotion - then what is the bloody question?

Er ...P&R everyone?

[Harry Stottle]

11 minutes ago, Scubby said:

If the answer is Toulouse and Wakefield making rash expensive signings in the second half of the season to avoid the drop, and Fev and Leigh loading their squad with NRL mercenaries desperately trying to get promotion - then what is the bloody question?

Quite easy, 2 of those under the present format would be trying to avoid the drop and the other two trying to obtain promotion.

Please excuse me for having the audacity to ask this but why suddenly do those player's from overseas at Leigh and Fev get tagged with being NRL mercenaries and all those others who have graced the Championship and SL both here and France and even previously in Canada escape your nomination? I doubt you will answer that.

[Harry Stottle]

7 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Er ...P&R everyone?

Sport dear Oxy, sport.

[Harry Stottle]

28 minutes ago, Jughead said:

I doubt many are bothered by what’s happening at Leigh and Featherstone tbh. Twelve of the Leigh twenty-one man squad this weekend are from the Southern Hemisphere, unless all of them have grandmothers from Europe, a number will leave at the end of the season, by which time the majority of the recruitment for Super League will be done and the promoted side will, as ever, be recruiting from Toulouse and the Championship before bringing in a load more Australians when the damage has been done come May time. 

What happens at the team you support Juggy?

[Davo5]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Always said I would go just to the community games Dav if P&R was no more.

Let’s hope you get your wish.

[fighting irish]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Sport dear Oxy, sport.

Let's say Leigh get promoted this time 'Arry, what do you think of giving them 2 seasons, (or even just one) exempt from relegation so they can adjust to the rigours of Super League at a sensible pace. 

[Dave T]

23 minutes ago, Scubby said:

If the answer is Toulouse and Wakefield making rash expensive signings in the second half of the season to avoid the drop, and Fev and Leigh loading their squad with NRL mercenaries desperately trying to get promotion - then what is the bloody question?

That's a particularly mean-spirited way of presenting that Scubby. 

I understand the issues with P&R, I get the arguments, and agree with many, but we do need to be careful not to eliminate any elements of sporting fun from the game. 

Signing players is a good thing. 

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, Davo5 said:

Let’s hope you get your wish.

Nah, as I said before Sky being the main "SPONSER" of RL in this country need to have more variety to air than just the race for Old Trafford.