10-team Leagues

[Tommygilf]

19 minutes ago, Northern Eel said:

I have no idea how it would work logistically and financially, but an evening of 9s RL involving a 3 team round-robin could make for a belting evening, especially if it contributed to a truncated league of some sort.

Perhaps over summer in select venues, nothing huge or out of touch, even whilst England go down under to play if that is what it takes. Thinking Headingley, Brentford, a venue in Greater Manchester/Merseyside - potential for the likes of Newcastle, Cardiff or Bristol even. "Summer Evening Rugby" being the theme. Everyone in traditional kits/colours, FTA coverage, have it over 2/3 weeks in August.

[GUBRATS]

54 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Perhaps over summer in select venues, nothing huge or out of touch, even whilst England go down under to play if that is what it takes. Thinking Headingley, Brentford, a venue in Greater Manchester/Merseyside - potential for the likes of Newcastle, Cardiff or Bristol even. "Summer Evening Rugby" being the theme. Everyone in traditional kits/colours, FTA coverage, have it over 2/3 weeks in August.

Should go down a storm 

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Should go down a storm 

I'm sure you'd be an avid fan!

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

I'm sure you'd be an avid fan!

Course 

[Tommygilf]

21 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Course 

As is the theme of the past few pages of this thread: its not all about you Cheryl!

[GUBRATS]

5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

As is the theme of the past few pages of this thread: its not all about you Cheryl!

As I said , should go down a storm 

[Oxford]

4 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Excuses.

It is amazing how often words like that are used to explain away reality.

 

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Oxford said:

It is amazing how often words like that are used to explain away reality.

 

Control the controllables, then start complaining about everyone else.

[Oxford]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Control the controllables, then start complaining about everyone else.

Although I agree that doing nothing is not the answer, if you have no understanding of what you're up against all you have is quotes from the Ladybird book of Strategy. 1958 edition of course!

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Oxford said:

Although I agree that doing nothing is not the answer, if you have no understanding of what you're up against all you have is quotes from the Ladybird book of Strategy. 1958 edition of course!

Sadly finding answers for shortcomings outside of what you control is often the easy option, which is why so many prefer it.

[Oxford]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Sadly finding answers for shortcomings outside of what you control is often the easy option, which is why so many prefer it.

You can do lots if you have a clear understanding of how things work rather than relying on self-help libraries.

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Oxford said:

You can do lots if you have a clear understanding of how things work rather than relying on self-help libraries.

Course, but blaming others and downing tools is the road to failure

[idrewthehaggis]

4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Perhaps over summer in select venues, nothing huge or out of touch, even whilst England go down under to play if that is what it takes. Thinking Headingley, Brentford, a venue in Greater Manchester/Merseyside - potential for the likes of Newcastle, Cardiff or Bristol even. "Summer Evening Rugby" being the theme. Everyone in traditional kits/colours, FTA coverage, have it over 2/3 weeks in August.

Tommy you amaze me. We agreed on the last few posts, but somehow disagree on the demographic mix of former mining towns. We both agree more needs to happen.

I really get to experience what the dynamics of SRD are. Which to be honest is a bit different than the average RL support as its a city within a bigger city region. The last game i went to I was surrounded by teachers, social workers, a couple who said they NHS business managers and kids from a real cross section of schools. I know the family who have STH alongside me are engineers. And as Salford is not as characteristically diverse as other UK cities are. 

But hey I do like that Nine's idea. It is the sort of soft recruitment scheme that the other code and football do. Especially football. Doesn't basketball do sometime grassroots like that?

Really smart thinking Tommy. Pick that one up RFL/IMG

 

[Oxford]

The relationship between investment, sponsorship and sports is not lost on anyone within these virtual four walls. The lack of progress  that haunts the sport in every discussion in this "forum" illustrates how accutely aware more or less every poster is on the issue. No one doubts that more effort would help though some think there is no effort being made at all to change things. There are a fair few folk who see it as the sport's fault that this is the case. Well IMG and the changes that they're about to make probably though not certainly two SL of ten teams (this sounds suspiciously like a top clubs number one on the wish list) will put this to the test. IMG have the wherewithall to change things and signing up with them does look like a "get that bloke who made darts fashionable in" kind of idea. So all this is about to be tested. Can IMG's changes project RL into the rest of the country's gaze and create country wide interest ?

All the other changes like Christmas Past return to threads with all the regularity of interminable soap operas only to crash when the price seems more than we're willing to pay or on the indifference of everyone else or both.

[RP London]

15 hours ago, Oxford said:

If you watch the Beebs sports news you'll know that RL is essentially invisible on the channel in spite of Aunty being one of our biggest partners.

You cannot, football could not, achieve any kind of diversity levels if it was largely discreet, unnoticable or as unobtrusive as RL is on the most popular news outlet in the country.

 

 

I think that has downplayed a huge amount of work that has been done at grass roots level by football. What is RL doing to work with the Asian communities in their heartlands.. similar questions are being asked in Cricket, why are Asian players not coming through? Its attitudes and discrimination further down the grass roots that causes issues. If the local coach is not welcoming then that child does not get involved to become the next pro, amateur or spectator. If the parents aren't welcomed then they are not going to become the next set of spectators and so on.

Football has worked very hard to get grass roots participation up and that knocks on... yes TV coverage helps because "if you cant see it you wont become it" etc but that is only 1/2 (if that) of the battle, the key is getting into schools, youth groups, areas and getting the kids and their families involved. That's what RL can do and from what i can tell it doesn't do it well.

[Oxford]

5 hours ago, RP London said:

I think that has downplayed a huge amount of work that has been done at grass roots level by football. What is RL doing to work with the Asian communities in their heartlands.. similar questions are being asked in Cricket, why are Asian players not coming through? Its attitudes and discrimination further down the grass roots that causes issues. If the local coach is not welcoming then that child does not get involved to become the next pro, amateur or spectator. If the parents aren't welcomed then they are not going to become the next set of spectators and so on.

Football has worked very hard to get grass roots participation up and that knocks on... yes TV coverage helps because "if you cant see it you wont become it" etc but that is only 1/2 (if that) of the battle, the key is getting into schools, youth groups, areas and getting the kids and their families involved. That's what RL can do and from what i can tell it doesn't do it well.

It was not intended to downplay anything though my lack of interest in soccer means I couldn't care less. However, Football needed and needs to do everything it can to address the racist themes that pervade its culture.

RL is steeped in the Red Wall Brexit Culture and we shouldn't ever undersetimate its importance, effects and negative influences. Asian communities as far as I can determine this, are not predisposed to RL as a sport. Those two things would never work well together no matter how much effort you made. There are also plenty of examples of racist shouting in RL crowds that would prevent anyone not white british from turning up.

We are not totally invisible as a sport as the games are covered and most people have access to at least some coverage. RL is not well covered in all the aspect that give credence and value to a sport. It is left out of sports news coverage, when it does appear it is often less than flattering. If we think of the wider public as Jimmy and Jenna know nothing about RL it's not that we don't exist ( even if we're invisible) it's that we don't count, we don't matter. You best point was certainly children don't want to become involved with something they don't see but why would they want to play a game that is so inconsequential it's barely mentioned.

In fact the great triumph of RL is that it still as any kind of media presence at all. Much of this has been achieved, as unpopular as this might be on here, by the very people criticised most for doing nothing.

Our media presence is not lost on sponsors and investors whose selfish reasons for investing and sponsoring determine whether they put money in or not.

Adam Hills said it best when he saw RL as having less regard than physical disablity sport in the media, and if that does little more than bring out a nice saying like "God helps those that help themselves" then nothing will change.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Oxford

[RP London]

2 minutes ago, Oxford said:

It was not intended to downplay anything though my lack of interest in soccer means I couldn't care less. However, Football needed and needs to do everything it can to address the racist themes that pervade its culture.

RL is steeped in the Red Wall Brexit Culture and we shouldn't ever undersetimate its importance, effects and negative influences. Asian communities as far as I can determine this, are not predisposed to RL as a sport. Those two things would never work well together no matter how much effort you made. There are also plenty of example of racist shouting in RL crowds that would prevent anyone not white british from turning up.

We are not totally invisible as a sport as the games are covered and most people have access to at least some coverage. RL is not well covered in all the aspect that give credence and value to a sport. It is left out of sports news coverage, when it does appear it is often less than flattering. If we think of the wider public as Jimmy and Jenna know nothing about RL it's not that we don't exist ( even if we're invisible) it's that we don't count, we don't matter. You best point was certainly children don't want to become involved with something they don't see but why would they want to play a game that is so inconsequential it's barely mentioned.

In fact the great triumph of RL is that it still as any kind of media presence at all. Much of this has been achieved, as unpopular as this might be on here, by the very people criticised most for doing nothing.

Our media presence is not lost on sponsors and investors whose selfish reasons for investing and sponsoring determine whether they put money in or not.

Adam Hills said it best when he saw RL as having less regard than physical disablity sport in the media, and if that does little more than bring out a nice saying like "God helps those that help themselves" then nothing will change.

FYI then they have worked hard to get into areas which previously people said exactly what you were saying about them being "not predisposed" to.  This has been hugely successful.. There is a massive way to go on innate racism and they are very well aware of that and are trying to deal with it.. 

RL should also be very well aware of the racism at RL clubs and grounds and should be doing all they can to clamp down on it, as should everyone. 

I agree that we do very well to be where we are with the coverage we get.. but not just that.. there are plenty of sports doing very well participation wise with even less coverage than we get.. Hockey for example. However, the crux of the argument you were having was not that we were still here but was about the diversity of the sport. 

That diversity does not come from TV coverage, that helps towards the end of the process, even if TV coverage is great you need the infrastructure below for somewhere for those people to go. What RL continually fails to do IMHO is to sort this infrastructure out, that is where you build the diversity (economic and racial). When I was down in London in the 2000s the DO system was brilliant, they were in schools and colleges and bringing people into the amateur clubs bringing not only the kids but the parents to the club. The diversity we had was brilliant. That all got pulled in the late 2000s damaging London development massively. From what i have heard this was the same across the country but I can only comment with knowledge on London. 

its not that communities are "not predisposed to RL" its that RL does not do enough to show why they should be.. go into the communities etc. I feel RL like to talk a good game about having a family and being community centred but they dont like to actually do it, they assume the communities will find it because it is community centred and that is not how it works and never has been.

[RP London]

18 minutes ago, Oxford said:

RL is steeped in the Red Wall Brexit Culture and we shouldn't ever undersetimate its importance, effects and negative influences. Asian communities as far as I can determine this, are not predisposed to RL as a sport. Those two things would never work well together no matter how much effort you made. There are also plenty of example of racist shouting in RL crowds that would prevent anyone not white british from turning up.

 

Just to add as I didnt want this muddled into the other post.. 

The bit in bold is the sort of thing they have said in the past about Black/women/homosexuals in the military. It is the type of thing that would have been said about Black people playing Football, right up until they played for England. Right now you cannot see how the 2 can be compatible but that in itself is a problem (potentially a personal one), it is not that they are not compatible its that people are not prepared to do the work or work out how you make it compatible and how you bring the 2 together.. its about work in the community, its about asking questions of both.. Racism and Racists have no place in society and have no place in RL, everyone else does.

I know many Brexiteers and Red Wall dwellers and they are not Racist, I have played Rugby with Asians and we have some in the Junior section of the club I coach at.... the 2 things you talk of are the extremes, most people are not (hence extreme).. It is hard work but I think the bit in bold just isnt true.. it can work well but it will take work.

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

Just to add as I didnt want this muddled into the other post.. 

The bit in bold is the sort of thing they have said in the past about Black/women/homosexuals in the military. It is the type of thing that would have been said about Black people playing Football, right up until they played for England. Right now you cannot see how the 2 can be compatible but that in itself is a problem (potentially a personal one), it is not that they are not compatible its that people are not prepared to do the work or work out how you make it compatible and how you bring the 2 together.. its about work in the community, its about asking questions of both.. Racism and Racists have no place in society and have no place in RL, everyone else does.

I know many Brexiteers and Red Wall dwellers and they are not Racist, I have played Rugby with Asians and we have some in the Junior section of the club I coach at.... the 2 things you talk of are the extremes, most people are not (hence extreme).. It is hard work but I think the bit in bold just isnt true.. it can work well but it will take work.

First of all I'm banned from politics on here but let's be clear I did not say Racist about Brexiters or the Red wall I said that's problematic and negative. I also never said there was no attraction for the Asian community chlidren for RL.  I also said that effort was not off the table because of this but that hard work on the part of those dismissed will never be enough on its own. Understanding the nature of the glass ceiling and creating porcesses that combat it are essential. Yoy can't get into the media if you're excluded by tons of hard work. That's patent nonsense in the worst liberal tradition.

1 hour ago, RP London said:

Just to add as I didnt want this muddled into the other post.. 

The bit in bold is the sort of thing they have said in the past about Black/women/homosexuals in the military. It is the type of thing that would have been said about Black people playing Football, right up until they played for England. Right now you cannot see how the 2 can be compatible but that in itself is a problem (potentially a personal one), it is not that they are not compatible its that people are not prepared to do the work or work out how you make it compatible and how you bring the 2 together.. its about work in the community, its about asking questions of both.. Racism and Racists have no place in society and have no place in RL, everyone else does.

I know many Brexiteers and Red Wall dwellers and they are not Racist, I have played Rugby with Asians and we have some in the Junior section of the club I coach at.... the 2 things you talk of are the extremes, most people are not (hence extreme).. It is hard work but I think the bit in bold just isnt true.. it can work well but it will take work.

Looking at prejudice as an extreme value is one way to ensure it continues. You quote football's efforts and achievements but most of those were made for very selfish reasons and given the nature of sport's culture and recent events illustrate that moving on doesn't necessarily mean that things have changed.

This is far too removed from the thread however relevant.But FWIW football may have put effort in but will never have and never will have to beg for recognition.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Oxford

[RP London]

4 minutes ago, Oxford said:

First of all I'm banned from politics on here but let's be clear I did not say Racist about Brexiters or the Red wall I said that's problematic and negative. I also never said there was no attraction for the Asian community chlidren for RL.  I also said that effort was not off the table because of this but that hard work on the part of those dismissed will never be enough on its own. Understanding the nature of the glass ceiling and creating porcesses that combat it are essential. Yoy can't get into the media if you're excluded by tons of hard work. That's patent nonsense in the worst liberal tradition.

Looking at prejudice as an extreme value is one way to ensure it continues. You quote football's efforts and achievements but most of those were made for very selfish reasons and given the nature of sport's culture and recent events illustrate that moving on doesn't necessarily mean that things have changed.

This is far too removed from the thread however relevant.

I can see why you are not allowed to talk about politics.. the last 2 times i've talked to you you have admitted not knowing or caring about parts of topics you are actively talking about. Not only that but the above is utter codswallop not related to anything I have said at all. 

You said there were prejudices in the Red Wall that would not be able to be overcome.. I used examples to show of prejudices that in other sports and walks of life that were there and are being broken down. 

Whether you break these down because of selfish reasons or not is irrelevant they are still being broken down, i would rather them be done for selfish reasons than not be done at all. 

Football openly admits it has a long way to go, no one would be idiotic enough to say that the war was won or that they didnt.. i certainly havent said anything of the sort. 

prejudice is an extreme, most people are moderate, that does not ensure it continues at all.. it is a statement of a fact. That fact in and of itself can the lead you on how best to tackle it... it isnt a blanket change it is a targeted campaign for change for example.. 

I have replied to counter what you had taken out of context and completley misread/misunderstood.. though the fact you are banned from talking politics probably says enough and to not get myself embroiled i will not go further with you on this and as you say it is away from the topic of 10 team leagues though its not off topic of how we grow the game, in fact its very relevant to that. 

[Oxford]

6 hours ago, RP London said:

I can see why you are not allowed to talk about politics.. the last 2 times i've talked to you you have admitted not knowing or caring about parts of topics you are actively talking about

Firstly I've only said I don't care about football this is not the thing I was actively talking about. I also won't claim knowledge I don't posess!

 

6 hours ago, RP London said:

Not only that but the above is utter codswallop not related to anything I have said at all. 

I refered back to your post more than once to make sure I hadn't got the wrong end of the stick. So if you're finding it difficult to see why the factors are related, how can I help?

You said I was only refering to extreme which wasn't true. You defended the red wall denizens as not being racist when I hadn't said they were. I pointed out they were a negative issue for RL.

There is a huge difference between the culture of football and that of RL though there is bound to be some cross over even so. You drew on the example of Soccer which I find really odd given the recent events which are both damning and indicative of where they've placed all those efforts you find to compare with RL. This is even though RL has none of the resources nor the lucky showbiz breaks that football takes for granted and which you don't think of as important except as a place for excuses.

It is fascinating you've chosen to make this personal at the end of your post. In any case I put you as my single ignore not beacuse I think you're terrible or you arguments are rubbish or even that you went personal but I thought you might prefer that way.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Oxford

[Oxford]

From memory RL has always contained this fight between the devil take the hindmost and the common good. The ten club format will just be another step along that route. If it's a success they'll barely notice the loss of a few also ran clubs and old geographical footprint fans. If it's a failure there'll be nowhere to return to, and fewer that will care.