Less than 20,000 sold for Cup Semi Triple Header it seems

[Saint Toppy]

For me since Sky pushed the GF as THE trophy to win then the CC has just lost is appeal full stop !!

I used to go to loads of CC games in the 80's and not just Saints ones, remember going to Maine Rd watching Wigan V Wire at Maine Rd in the late 80's as one of the biggest non-Saints games.

Now I rarely go to any CC games, even the Saints home ties, and last Final I went to was 2008

For me if the ditched the GF and reverted back to the league being decided by top of the table so the CC was the only major knock-out trophy then it may re-kindle my interest.

[Loiner]

11 hours ago, yipyee said:

This is not taking the mick here but Leigh should have hosted Saints vs Wigan semi or Warrington at a push. A sell out of a smaller venue makes people feel like they are missing out. Tickets being sold out before they go on general release increases future ticket sales. This was very much the case for grand finals when OT was only 65 thousand capacity.

Ellend Road is just a sad play by the Yorkshire central/biased rfl 

Hull kr vs Huddersfield at fetherstone or Cas.

Womens final at Halifax.

 

I thought the RFL were based in Salford now ?

[meast]

Is there really 3 or 4 pages of the same 2 or 3 posters arguing about a crowd in 1939

Any chance we could discuss why the ticket sales for the triple header haven't sold very well?

[Mattrhino]

I know the RFL can't win here, as people on here have spent years bemoaning our low Groupon style ticket prices for our marquee events. But on the other side who is paying £45-£55 for this? 

Its more than Leeds Utd charge for Premier League games which is arguably the biggest sporting league in the world.

[gingerjon]

Just now, meast said:

Is there really 3 or 4 pages of the same 2 or 3 posters arguing about a crowd in 1939

I don't think I've ever argued about a crowd in 1939 before.

Oh, and the answers:

• Semi finals are not really enjoyable 'event' games for neutrals and double headers tend to dilute rather than enhance.
• The RFL has no money for marketing or event experience.
• The Challenge Cup isn't a great draw.
• People have no money and because of the above three things will prioritise other events over this one.

The 'solution' is to accept that c. 20,000-25,000 is about the maximum a double header will get across both games and live with that or go back to two separate games and accept 10-12,500 crowds for those.

And play the women's final as a standalone event.

You can close the thread now.

[meast]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

I try not to be to critical of the RFL/SLE for the sake of it, but if yiu are going to try and create a new event, then do it properly. They have just rented a substandard ground and arranged 3 matches. 

I'm not sure whether semis are the right games for this type of event. If you win, you're off to celebrate, and if you lose you have no desire to hang around watching another match. Semi finals are the most difficult games to lose. 

 

56 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think someone mentioned a good point before. Are neutrals interested in attending semi finals? On the whole I think not. Certainly not as they may attend a SL final or Challenge Cup final. So your target audience should be the fans of the teams involved and you should be looking to maximise those.

As I have already said I don't think many RL fans want to sit there for 4 or 6 hours anyway and I don't think neutrals are really attracted to a semi final as an event (as either a single event or double header). As such I think the logic of trying this approach (presuming the approach is to create an event to attract more neutrals) is flawed from the off. Save that for finals and internationals, if we ever get going with arranging them.

I don't think there is any shame in realising we can't get huge crowds for semi finals. There is no shame in trying to maximise fans for individual semi finals when we know them based on the clubs that get there. For Saints v Wigan at Warrington or Bolton if we want to be ambitious. Likewise Huddersfield v Hull KR at Headingley or somewhere like Doncaster.

I think the RFL are hoping that 15,000-20,000 fans of competing teams will buy tickets and hope that 10,000 neutrals also buy tickets.

But neutrals would, in my opinion, tend to go for the final rather than semi finals, so I can't see there been many more than 10,000-12,000 for the Wigan-Saints let alone the other games.

All 3 games are likely to played out in 3/4's empty stadium, surely that's defeating the object and would be better just playing them at seperate neutral venues?

[whatmichaelsays]

11 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

That said, what are they selling and who are they selling it to?

DING DING DING DING DING! We have a winner. 

Just who is the audience for this, aside from the fans of the two clubs? And why is a double/triple header any more appealing that hosting Wigan v Saints in Warrington or Bolton, Huddersfield vs KR at Headingley or Doncaster, and the women's final as part of the men's final?

Edited May 4, 2022 by whatmichaelsays

[Mattrhino]

26 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

For me since Sky pushed the GF as THE trophy to win then the CC has just lost is appeal full stop !!

I used to go to loads of CC games in the 80's and not just Saints ones, remember going to Maine Rd watching Wigan V Wire at Maine Rd in the late 80's as one of the biggest non-Saints games.

Now I rarely go to any CC games, even the Saints home ties, and last Final I went to was 2008

For me if the ditched the GF and reverted back to the league being decided by top of the table so the CC was the only major knock-out trophy then it may re-kindle my interest.

Or is it just the trend, the FA cup final used to be the biggest game in English Football now its been demoted to almost a reserves competition and most Recently they don't fill the stadium for the semi's at Wembley.

[Tommygilf]

30 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  It was before SKY bought the game.

The decline in the cup? Yes that too I guess...

Sky and the dominance of league competitions over cups is more a relationship of acceleration rather than defining characteristic imo.

[gingerjon]

Just now, Mattrhino said:

Or is it just the trend, the FA cup final used to be the biggest game in English Football now its been demoted to almost a reserves competition and most Recently they don't fill the stadium for the semi's at Wembley.

I was pondering this and the only sports I can think of - and I could be wrong on this - where the cups remains higher than the leagues seem to be GAA and Shinty.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

I was pondering this and the only sports I can think of - and I could be wrong on this - where the cups remains higher than the leagues seem to be GAA and Shinty.

Correct me if I'm wrong but is that also because the League's are semi regional?

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I don't think I've ever argued about a crowd in 1939 before.

Oh, and the answers:

• Semi finals are not really enjoyable 'event' games for neutrals and double headers tend to dilute rather than enhance.
• The RFL has no money for marketing or event experience.
• The Challenge Cup isn't a great draw.
• People have no money and because of the above three things will prioritise other events over this one.

The 'solution' is to accept that c. 20,000-25,000 is about the maximum a double header will get across both games and live with that or go back to two separate games and accept 10-12,500 crowds for those.

And play the women's final as a standalone event.

You can close the thread now.

I agree with all this but I think with the women's final in particular we are missing a trick and devaluing it incredibly. A double header would do that anyway but a triple header certainly does. It may even actively put off people attending the womens game because their team is playing some hours later and they don't want to be there all day.

I think by following the approach of other sports and making the women's final a standalone event and a celebration of the women's game in its own right, maybe with some sort of amateur girls festival or game before it even, then it can be so much more and could attract a decent crowd.

[Mattrhino]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

I was pondering this and the only sports I can think of - and I could be wrong on this - where the cups remains higher than the leagues seem to be GAA and Shinty.

Even the Champions League has fallen in relevance lately. Hidden away on BT sports and the same teams playing every year has made it rather stale (sound similar)

[whatmichaelsays]

35 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

For me since Sky pushed the GF as THE trophy to win then the CC has just lost is appeal full stop !!

I used to go to loads of CC games in the 80's and not just Saints ones, remember going to Maine Rd watching Wigan V Wire at Maine Rd in the late 80's as one of the biggest non-Saints games.

Now I rarely go to any CC games, even the Saints home ties, and last Final I went to was 2008

For me if the ditched the GF and reverted back to the league being decided by top of the table so the CC was the only major knock-out trophy then it may re-kindle my interest.

I don't think you can blame Sky for the appeal of the Grand Final - it was a decision by SLE to go to the play-off and Grand Final model (which was used well before Sky came along and before RL went to the FPTP model in the 70s). It's not as if play-off fixtures are well attended either, and they're as hyped up by Sky. 

I think the major issue here is a combination of:

• Fixture fatigue - there is no shortage of occasions in a year where Wigan and St Helens will meet.
• Fan inertia - we don't have enough of a culture of fans paying "walk up" prices because we rely heavily on season tickets, and the sport generally doesn't do well at attracting casual fans. 
• The event just isn't that appealing. 

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but is that also because the League's are semi regional?

Really not sure. I am, at best, a very casual follower of GAA things.

[henage]

10 hours ago, meast said:

Elland Road?

true

 

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think by following the approach of other sports and making the women's final a standalone event and a celebration of the women's game in its own right, maybe with some sort of amateur girls festival or game before it even, then it can be so much more and could attract a decent crowd.

It would seem to be an absolute win/win in terms of positive coverage and the likelihood of a more than acceptable attendance.

[Eddie]

21 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

I know the RFL can't win here, as people on here have spent years bemoaning our low Groupon style ticket prices for our marquee events. But on the other side who is paying £45-£55 for this? 

Its more than Leeds Utd charge for Premier League games which is arguably the biggest sporting league in the world.

To be pedantic, the NFL is much bigger than the Premier League. Though agreed on your first point. 

[Jughead]

The cup has become largely a stale, characterless formality with almost no effort by anyone involved to promote or plan this properly, with the women’s final almost an after thought. 

 

[Dave T]

31 minutes ago, meast said:

 

I think the RFL are hoping that 15,000-20,000 fans of competing teams will buy tickets and hope that 10,000 neutrals also buy tickets.

But neutrals would, in my opinion, tend to go for the final rather than semi finals, so I can't see there been many more than 10,000-12,000 for the Wigan-Saints let alone the other games.

All 3 games are likely to played out in 3/4's empty stadium, surely that's defeating the object and would be better just playing them at seperate neutral venues?

I'd agree with that. although I expect they wanted 20k from the four finalists and then 5 to 10k for neutrals. The problem is that to get these neutrals you need to actually offer them something compelling for that £55 ticket on the halfway line. Watching three live games of RL at Elland Road is clearly quite a niche thing, as ticket sales are proving, so you need to make it more of an event. If you don't have the stomach for that, then just pick a suitable ground and sell into your 4 semi finalists.

The problem with trying to rely on RL neutrals is that this year alone, there is a final at Tottenham, Magic Weekend, the Grand Final plus around 60 international games which are also vying for those sales.  

[Mattrhino]

18 minutes ago, Eddie said:

To be pedantic, the NFL is much bigger than the Premier League. Though agreed on your first point. 

By revenue yes, because they are the richest country in the world. But by gpobal viewership PL is more watched 

[Damien]

34 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but is that also because the League's are semi regional?

Leagues are national but they just aren't that important. 4 divisions of 8 teams playing each other only once with the top 2 of each division playing in a final. They were done and dusted last month. Then it builds towards the provincial Championships and then national All Ireland which are knockout but the big prizes.

I suppose the best comparison is that the leagues sort of remind me a little of the Challenge Cup when there were rounds pre season and it finished in May and felt more like a preseason tournament and not taken as seriously. Then everyone looks to build towards the Grand final.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Damien

[Eddie]

6 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

By revenue yes, because they are the richest country in the world. But by gpobal viewership PL is more watched 

Is it? I’m not disagreeing with you, I’ve never seen the figures. 
 

Their attendances dwarf the premier league’s though, 66k v 38k average. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Eddie

[Dave T]

24 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

 

• The event just isn't that appealing. 

This last line is the crucial one for me - I think you can overcome fatigue and inertia if you make the event appealing. And a Semi Final imho should be the very best game of the whole year for fans of the clubs. 

If we strip things right back, Wigan v Saints in a Challenge Cup Semi Final is an attractive fixture. So if we assume the clubs have sold 8 or 9 thousand between them, that suggests that the RFL staging of this event has actively reduced attractiveness of it. I also can't remember the last time Wigan played Saints in a Cup semi final, so this does have an element of novelty.

The two previous double headers have had 24/26k at them at Bolton - that suggests that asking two local rivals to go to a substandard Elland Road just isn't appealing to them.  I think one of the things we have learned over the years, and one of the things that we ignore quite a bit, is that stadium selection has a huge impact on the attendances. That first double header featured Catalans and still had 26k at Bolton. The fact that we are likely to see a 20% drop for this event, where Hudds will take more than Catalans is a shocking stat. 

Unfortunately, attending an RL 'event' nowadays can be a bit underwhelming. Expecting people to be interested in a double header is possibly missing the point of the magic of being in a semi final knockout. 

I've been ok with the use of Double Headers for this - but I do rather think 2 x 15k grounds over a weekend is the way to go, with appropriate pricing and event staging to make it attractive and fill them out. 

The Challenge Cup is one of my favourite things in sport, and I worry that it is heading the way of RU's Pilkington Cup. 

 

[FearTheVee]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Expecting people to be interested in a double header is possibly missing the point of the magic of being in a semi final knockout.

This for me. I would love to watch all three games but because Leeds is bad to get to for me I’m struggling to watch much at all of the second semi before needing to embark on a 40 minute walk from a poor stadium to the train station to make it back home.

So the idea of a triple header is just annoying as I have to buy a ticket but can’t watch all the games.  I’d rather it was just Saints v Wigan then I could watch the other two games separately rather than missing large parts of them both despite having a ticket for the event!!