Less than 20,000 sold for Cup Semi Triple Header it seems

[RP London]

I think there are a number of things at play.. 

fixture fatigue for sure: loop matches and play off matches mean the potential to play the same team 6 times in a season.. which frankly gets a tad dull.

Cost of living crisis: self explanatory really.. (just look at the cup final crowds in the great depression to see how this can affect major events let alone lesser events )

But for me the key is that its not an "Event"... over and over it gets talked of on here that we do not make matches events.. I am a fan of the double headers and went to the previous ones with my son and enjoyed the matches, enjoyed the womens final (which should not be part of this IMHO, it should be stand alone and a proper occasion). If you want people to go to this sort of thing you need to accept that for at least part of one of the matches they wont have much interest so you need to put things on around it.. there needs to be an "event". 

Its a different sport and country granted but a couple of weeks ago I was on a family holiday on the west coast of the US and we went to a Lakers game, bloody expense for a family of 4 but a once in a lifetime chance to see LeBron etc., but when we got to the Crypto.com Arena area it was mad. There was so much going on from street vendors to "legends", the Lakers girls were out in force, there were games in the fanzone with give aways (enter the draw for that month by getting x score etc) there was just loads going on. Once inside the stadium there was entertainment throughout, it was brilliant (and i'm not the biggest basketball fan) my family loved it and my daughter was well into every part of it even when the "entertainment" was a bit distracting from the game itself. 

Now before anyone jumps on me, I know the sport itself is designed with breaks etc and i'm not saying we should emulate the actual game stuff but all the other bits around it can be looked at. We spent hours in the area (and that was after a full and knackering day at Universal Studios) and had a brilliant time at the entire "event" and that is one of 40+ home games. Capacity is 19k but it was pretty much full and buzzing, the money that must have been taken from everything else that was going on is massive.

IMHO its that type of thing that will get people going again to games, they have to make it where it isnt just about turning up, watching the game and going home. You have to go full on for it with the aim to bring in a new audience and bring in the families more, when the RFL do try it it always seems half baked so it doesnt work and they give up (look at the live entertainment at some of these events) where as if they went full on to knock it out of the park they may just find that if you spend that little bit more you get a lot more  back!

[Davo5]

I’ve attended numerous RL “event” games World Cup Finals,not featuring England,both days of Magic,Challenge Cup & Grand Finals not featuring my own club but I’ve never thought of & unlikely to ever attend a Challenge Cup semifinal as a neutral & expecting large numbers of neutral supporters to attend just because it’s a double header is naive at best.

[Hopping Mad]

12 hours ago, theswanmcr said:

How many neutrals would go to any semi-finals - either as a single, double or triple header at a fancy venue or not?

I used to. In the 1980s.

[Tommygilf]

Perhaps Headingley, with the ability to move to the "ends" for your teams games and the seated sides for the games not involving your team, as well as having the concourse under the Western terrace with the food and drink stalls as it is for the Cricket would have been better.

At least there is ample coach parking at Elland Road

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

I’ve attended numerous RL “event” games World Cup Finals,not featuring England,both days of Magic,Challenge Cup & Grand Finals not featuring my own club but I’ve never thought of & unlikely to ever attend a Challenge Cup semifinal as a neutral & expecting large numbers of neutral supporters to attend just because it’s a double header is naive at best.

I think if people aren't interested in 1 match then its highly unlikely that they will be interested just because you put 2 or 3 on. That's a severely flawed RFL way of thinking about these things. Piling them high with what is in effect a buy 1 get 2 free offer only really works if you want that one product in the first place. I think few neutrals do for a semi final.

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, RL Sonja said:

Degenerated not denigrated. 

Semantics in the terms of this debate surely?

[Josef K]

I always watch both mens games in the SF’s if Saints either win or lose. But i know a couple of people who are not going because it’s at LUFC, they have said “the seats are dreadful there is no room”. I have to agree with them, when i have been to test matches at ER ive sat in the seats behind the goals and the legroom is poor. 

[Mattrhino]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

I think there are a number of things at play.. 

fixture fatigue for sure: loop matches and play off matches mean the potential to play the same team 6 times in a season.. which frankly gets a tad dull.

Cost of living crisis: self explanatory really.. (just look at the cup final crowds in the great depression to see how this can affect major events let alone lesser events )

But for me the key is that its not an "Event"... over and over it gets talked of on here that we do not make matches events.. I am a fan of the double headers and went to the previous ones with my son and enjoyed the matches, enjoyed the womens final (which should not be part of this IMHO, it should be stand alone and a proper occasion). If you want people to go to this sort of thing you need to accept that for at least part of one of the matches they wont have much interest so you need to put things on around it.. there needs to be an "event". 

Its a different sport and country granted but a couple of weeks ago I was on a family holiday on the west coast of the US and we went to a Lakers game, bloody expense for a family of 4 but a once in a lifetime chance to see LeBron etc., but when we got to the Crypto.com Arena area it was mad. There was so much going on from street vendors to "legends", the Lakers girls were out in force, there were games in the fanzone with give aways (enter the draw for that month by getting x score etc) there was just loads going on. Once inside the stadium there was entertainment throughout, it was brilliant (and i'm not the biggest basketball fan) my family loved it and my daughter was well into every part of it even when the "entertainment" was a bit distracting from the game itself. 

Now before anyone jumps on me, I know the sport itself is designed with breaks etc and i'm not saying we should emulate the actual game stuff but all the other bits around it can be looked at. We spent hours in the area (and that was after a full and knackering day at Universal Studios) and had a brilliant time at the entire "event" and that is one of 40+ home games. Capacity is 19k but it was pretty much full and buzzing, the money that must have been taken from everything else that was going on is massive.

IMHO its that type of thing that will get people going again to games, they have to make it where it isnt just about turning up, watching the game and going home. You have to go full on for it with the aim to bring in a new audience and bring in the families more, when the RFL do try it it always seems half baked so it doesnt work and they give up (look at the live entertainment at some of these events) where as if they went full on to knock it out of the park they may just find that if you spend that little bit more you get a lot more  back!

Problem is sport in this country (not just RL by the way) is still in the 1980's where your lucky to spend half an hour lining up in a ###### smelling dank concourse for your watered down beer and microwaved pie.

It is slowly changing, the new Spurs stadium is as good as you get in the US for stadium amenities but that is only one stadium in the whole country. The biggest clubs in this country Man Utd and Liverpool still play in delapalated century old stadiums with different additions from different decades.

[meast]

2 hours ago, Damien said:

I agree with all this but I think with the women's final in particular we are missing a trick and devaluing it incredibly. A double header would do that anyway but a triple header certainly does. It may even actively put off people attending the womens game because their team is playing some hours later and they don't want to be there all day.

I think by following the approach of other sports and making the women's final a standalone event and a celebration of the women's game in its own right, maybe with some sort of amateur girls festival or game before it even, then it can be so much more and could attract a decent crowd.

I would have almost certainly have gone to watch the women's cup final had it not been at the time when I, and most of my fellow fans would be travelling to Leeds for our own game 5 hours later!

I am not prepared to squeeze into a tiny cramped space inside Elland Road for that amount of time.

Madness, sheer madness, it should be a stand alone game to help grow the womens game not make it some sideshow event.

[Wanderer]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

 

If we strip things right back, Wigan v Saints in a Challenge Cup Semi Final is an attractive fixture.

 

I think people are just bored by the repetition now.

There are all the loop fixtures, magic weekend fixtures and the challenge cup is basically a Super League knock-out cup due to the strength of SL teams and the rest barring the occasional upset which is now really just an occasional close run thing 

[Dunbar]

I said this when the triple header was announced...

I am not writing this just to be negative as I like the idea of more events from RL but I strongly feel that the Women's final should be its own event as there is real momentum in the Women's game now and it deserves more than an attendance that is building towards the end of the game as it waits for the men's semi's.

 

[Just Browny]

14 minutes ago, Wanderer said:

I think people are just bored by the repetition now.

There are all the loop fixtures, magic weekend fixtures and the challenge cup is basically a Super League knock-out cup due to the strength of SL teams and the rest barring the occasional upset which is now really just an occasional close run thing 

I definitely think this is a feature. No problem is an island in RL, and I do think there is some fatigue around from years and years of the same ones, playing each other 3-6 times per years, with only occasional interjections from other teams.

Now, you can argue the onus is on the other teams to break that cycle, and the Hull KR-Hudds semi pits two sides who are trying to, and that we have had more variety in the cup than in Super League, but ultimately it is an issue for the whole game that can only be improved with an injection of more new blood so that Wigan and Saints remains a big game and not just an annual series (played last month, play this month and play again in early July).

I also think the current cup format, with SL clubs entering so late, means fans no longer have a sense of their club being on a 'cup run' as they are in a semi after two wins.

[Dave T]

20 minutes ago, Wanderer said:

I think people are just bored by the repetition now.

There are all the loop fixtures, magic weekend fixtures and the challenge cup is basically a Super League knock-out cup due to the strength of SL teams and the rest barring the occasional upset which is now really just an occasional close run thing 

We need to be careful not to let our own dislikes cloud our judgement too much. 

Back in the 80s and 90s when I started we could easily see us play some fixtures 4 or 5 times. I don't think the repetition element is dampening demand for Wigan v Saints in a Challenge Cup semi final. 

Where we see the fixture fatigue is around the 3/4/5th game at normal grounds. 

Cup comps will always lead to repeat fixtures. I do agree with the format of the Challenge Cup removing some of the buzz from the comp. 

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

I definitely think this is a feature. No problem is an island in RL, and I do think there is some fatigue around from years and years of the same ones, playing each other 3-6 times per years, with only occasional interjections from other teams.

Now, you can argue the onus is on the other teams to break that cycle, and the Hull KR-Hudds semi pits two sides who are trying to, and that we have had more variety in the cup than in Super League, but ultimately it is an issue for the whole game that can only be improved with an injection of more new blood so that Wigan and Saints remains a big game and not just an annual series (played last month, play this month and play again in early July).

I also think the current cup format, with SL clubs entering so late, means fans no longer have a sense of their club being on a 'cup run' as they are in a semi after two wins.

I suppose a way to try and understand whether repetition is an issue (bearing in mind nobody has played each other more than once yet outside the cup), would be to consider would a Wigan v Wire semi final be any more attractive. Personally I don't think it would, yet we have a more traditional home and away schedule versus them this year. I do accept though that the issue could be considered over a period of years. 

But in any scenario, this fixture should be a very attractive one. 

[Exiled Wiganer]

It’s the season ticket culture. It has made budgeting for your RL fix so easy, that one offs and add ons lose their appeal as must see’s. Our extended group were far more likely to choose to go to attractive cup games before everyone had season tickets. There is also the near certainty of defeat again by Saints, which makes the prospect less appealing. 

[gingerjon]

Just now, Exiled Wiganer said:

It’s the season ticket culture.

I keep hearing this a lot but if we have such a high proportion of season ticket holders then how come league crowds can be affected by which day the game is played - as (and this is my understanding which could be wrong) season ticket holders would be included in the attendance regardless.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

I keep hearing this a lot but if we have such a high proportion of season ticket holders then how come league crowds can be affected by which day the game is played - as (and this is my understanding which could be wrong) season ticket holders would be included in the attendance regardless.

Not all sales are season tickets though, there is a proportion of walk up and away support, and that is the variable. 

Let's say at Warrington we have c6k season tickets (there or thereabouts). We appear to have 8k regulars, so therefore 2k payers. But we can go up to 10k plus. 

We have fluctuated between 8 and 10k this year - yet in the cup we got 2.5k. That evidence can't really be any clearer. 

[Dave T]

5 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

It’s the season ticket culture. It has made budgeting for your RL fix so easy, that one offs and add ons lose their appeal as must see’s. Our extended group were far more likely to choose to go to attractive cup games before everyone had season tickets. There is also the near certainty of defeat again by Saints, which makes the prospect less appealing. 

This is true, but if the crowd is as predicted, this is way down on recent history, with little else changing. 

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Not all sales are season tickets though, there is a proportion of walk up and away support, and that is the variable. 

Let's say at Warrington we have c6k season tickets (there or thereabouts). We appear to have 8k regulars, so therefore 2k payers. But we can go up to 10k plus. 

We have fluctuated between 8 and 10k this year - yet in the cup we got 2.5k. That evidence can't really be any clearer. 

And this is unique to rugby league?

I genuinely don't know btw. But I do see it as an excuse for low crowds all the time and I've never been entirely convinced that it's a real reason when set against the alternatives.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

And this is unique to rugby league?

I genuinely don't know btw. But I do see it as an excuse for low crowds all the time and I've never been entirely convinced that it's a real reason when set against the alternatives.

We generally see lower crowds across all sports for cup games that sit outside season tickets. Even football. 

It is sometimes disguised by demand exceeding the size of the stadium. We aren't in that position. 

There is a reason I can pick up a cheap ticket at Man City in the cup (even the Champions League) really easily versus paying a fortune if I'm lucky in the Premier League. 

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

We generally see lower crowds across all sports for cup games that sit outside season tickets. Even football. 

It is sometimes disguised by demand exceeding the size of the stadium. We aren't in that position. 

There is a reason I can pick up a cheap ticket at Man City in the cup (even the Champions League) really easily versus paying a fortune if I'm lucky in the Premier League. 

But a lot of that is because the cup in question isn't interesting - even the Champions League, particularly the group stages.

And that's the bigger problem. Not least because all the solutions of, "Just put the cup on the season ticket" devalue it more and make it more likely than not that you'll give it a miss anyway.

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Mattrhino said:

Problem is sport in this country (not just RL by the way) is still in the 1980's where your lucky to spend half an hour lining up in a ###### smelling dank concourse for your watered down beer and microwaved pie.

It is slowly changing, the new Spurs stadium is as good as you get in the US for stadium amenities but that is only one stadium in the whole country. The biggest clubs in this country Man Utd and Liverpool still play in delapalated century old stadiums with different additions from different decades.

Yes totally agree with what you say but it doesnt mean you cannot put things on around the stadium or even on the pitch to be entertained before and during the match (half time etc) rather than the usual drabness we normally get. 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

But a lot of that is because the cup in question isn't interesting - even the Champions League, particularly the group stages.

And that's the bigger problem. Not least because all the solutions of, "Just put the cup on the season ticket" devalue it more and make it more likely than not that you'll give it a miss anyway.

There is something in that, but again if we look at the facts, when a ticket is included, people turn up - we did it for a couple of years - and people turned up! 

Wire played Wakey two weeks running. 8.1k then 2.5k. Even accepting the defeat in game one, that drop can't possibly be put down to the comp just not being attractive, because a SL game of Wire v Wakey is hardly box office. 

As has been mentioned, none of these points are any kind of silver bullet, it's a variety of things, but the issue of season tickets vs all pay has pretty compelling evidence backing it up, versus a lot of emotional opinion pieces. 

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

There is something in that, but again if we look at the facts, when a ticket is included, people turn up - we did it for a couple of years - and people turned up! 

Wire played Wakey two weeks running. 8.1k then 2.5k. Even accepting the defeat in game one, that drop can't possibly be put down to the comp just not being attractive, because a SL game of Wire v Wakey is hardly box office. 

As has been mentioned, none of these points are any kind of silver bullet, it's a variety of things, but the issue of season tickets vs all pay has pretty compelling evidence backing it up, versus a lot of emotional opinion pieces. 

If you think I'm going to start looking at facts after 20 years on here then I'm afraid ...

Those are good points, I'll have a mull about them when we do early rounds of the Challenge Cup next year. I hope nobody is suggesting - and I don't think they are - that a semi final should be on a season ticket.

I think some realism about where we are and the attraction of semi finals for neutrals needs to filter in - and then we can get on with enjoying the games.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

If you think I'm going to start looking at facts after 20 years on here then I'm afraid ...

Those are good points, I'll have a mull about them when we do early rounds of the Challenge Cup next year. I hope nobody is suggesting - and I don't think they are - that a semi final should be on a season ticket.

I think some realism about where we are and the attraction of semi finals for neutrals needs to filter in - and then we can get on with enjoying the games.

I do worry that the cup is suffering death by a thousand cuts. And tbh, if we ever scrap the Challenge Cup, it may be the end of me following RL.