Less than 20,000 sold for Cup Semi Triple Header it seems

[Anita Bath]

No wonder they are struggling to sell tickets…..It clashes with Rochdale Hornets v midlands hurricanes

[Chris22]

Double headers have pretty much had zero impact on crowd figures for semi finals, which are flat.

The question is which is better? 10,000 - 12,000 for Saints v Wigan at a near full Warrington, or the same crowd in a 75% empty Elland Road.

 

[Mattrhino]

7 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

Double headers have pretty much had zero impact on crowd figures for semi finals, which are flat.

The question is which is better? 10,000 - 12,000 for Saints v Wigan at a near full Warrington, or the same crowd in a 75% empty Elland Road.

 

75% of ER is about 8,000

[RigbyLuger]

How many times did teams potentially play each other in the days on the County Cups, Regal Trophy, Premiership and BBC2 as well?

[Damien]

19 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

How many times did teams potentially play each other in the days on the County Cups, Regal Trophy, Premiership and BBC2 as well?

The difference for me that was in a 16 team league you may have played more than 50 games with a wider variety of teams. For example in 1986-87 Wigan played 53 games but only played Saints 3 times. In say 1991-1992 Wigan played 49 games and played Saints 5 times. There's some seasons that happens now when playing a little over 30 games.  This season Wigan are guaranteed to play Saints 4 times already without considering the playoffs.

For me there was a lot more variety with clubs having more things to play for. Then obviously some seasons you had further variety with incoming tours and quality mid season internationals and even club v country matches.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Damien

[gingerjon]

17 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

How many times did teams potentially play each other in the days on the County Cups, Regal Trophy, Premiership and BBC2 as well?

Maximum of 6 - excluding replays. County, Regal, CC, Premiership plus two league fixtures.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

The difference for me that was in a 16 team league you may have played more than 50 games with a wider variety of teams. For example in 1986-87 Wigan played 53 games but only played Saints 3 times. In say 1991-1992 Wigan played 49 games and played Saints 5 times. There's some seasons that happens now and playing little over 30 games.  This season Wigan are guaranteed to play Saints 4 times already without considering the playoffs.

For me there was a lot more variety with clubs having more things to play for. Then obviously some seasons you had further variety with incoming tours and quality mid season internationals and even club v country matches.

What would people say about a showpiece final having a crowd of 16,000 these days?

And yet that was the attendance for the 1987 Regal Trophy final.

(It was the first one to come back on a google).

I have no data for any equivalent matches in 1939.

[Damien]

23 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

What would people say about a showpiece final having a crowd of 16,000 these days?

And yet that was the attendance for the 1987 Regal Trophy final.

(It was the first one to come back on a google).

I have no data for any equivalent matches in 1939.

I think if you had cups getting 16k paying customers clubs would be happy and it would be a fair old boost to the coffers. Some finals even got 20k plus too even not too long before they were scrapped.

My main point though was just trying to explain the additional variety that used to be in the game and why some people are bored by the repetition, or what they see as repetition, in todays game. I also think the fact that finishing top is largely unimportant doesn't help things either when it means some games feel meaningless. Some people dont agree but its obvious a number of fans feel that way.

I personally only really considered the Challenge Cup to be the showpiece cup then obviously the league on top of that. They were always the two big things for me when we had the various cups.

I'm not really advocating a return to county cups, those days are gone. The play offs and SL final is basically a Premiership with more much meaning these days. That leaves the possibility of some sort of 2nd Regal Trophy type cup which would require getting rid of loop fixtures and probably a major rethink on how we do everything. As it is, with the Challenge Cup failing, it would be daft having another cup and keeping everything else the same. I'd be looking at introducing more variety in other ways such as a 14 team SL and no loop fixtures.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Damien

[RP London]

20 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

What would people say about a showpiece final having a crowd of 16,000 these days?

And yet that was the attendance for the 1987 Regal Trophy final.

(It was the first one to come back on a google).

I have no data for any equivalent matches in 1939.

Well the Challenge Cup final got 55k if that helps.. however in 1934 it was 41k.... read into that what you will.. but i think the most important thing is that in 1912 when the final was held at Headingly it was in front of 15k... for the final!!! if the semi can reach 20k in the same city no less then surely that is some progress in 110 years! 

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Chris22 said:

Double headers have pretty much had zero impact on crowd figures for semi finals, which are flat.

The question is which is better? 10,000 - 12,000 for Saints v Wigan at a near full Warrington, or the same crowd in a 75% empty Elland Road.

 

to be fair it also shows that it potentially hasnt damaged it and actually is possible making more money as its 1 stadium rental etc.. so maybe it is a good idea... 

[Josef K]

Are the kiosks/bars at LUFC cashless or do they take cash. 

[Chris22]

1 hour ago, Mattrhino said:

75% of ER is about 8,000

If less than 20,000 tickets are sold and Hull KR have sold the most, for the start of Saints v Wigan match, that could be the number in attendance!

[Damien]

1 minute ago, RP London said:

to be fair it also shows that it potentially hasnt damaged it and actually is possible making more money as its 1 stadium rental etc.. so maybe it is a good idea... 

That's presuming hiring a big 40k stadium like Elland Road, which requires far more staff and has greater overheads, for a longer period of time is any cheaper than hiring somewhere small venues like the Halliwell Jones and Headingley. I doubt its really in Leeds United's interest to hire it out for peanuts when they get £100 million plus from simply being in the Premier League.

[whatmichaelsays]

19 minutes ago, Damien said:

The difference for me that was in a 16 team league you may have played more than 50 games with a wider variety of teams. For example in 1986-87 Wigan played 53 games but only played Saints 3 times. In say 1991-1992 Wigan played 49 games and played Saints 5 times. There's some seasons that happens now when playing a little over 30 games.  This season Wigan are guaranteed to play Saints 4 times already without considering the playoffs.

For me there was a lot more variety with clubs having more things to play for. Then obviously some seasons you had further variety with incoming tours and quality mid season internationals and even club v country matches.

I'm not really old enough to remember that sort of era, only really getting into RL in the mid-90s, but did cup games back then feel more distinctive? Did the cup benefit from Wigan's dominance of the league (even though Wigan also dominated the cup, was there was that "on any given Sunday" sense of an upset)? 

I think the point about fixture fatigue when we talk about it today is in the sense of - does this really feel any different or better (or at least, "please pay an extra £25-30" different or better) to the other times this year that Wigan and St Helens have, will, or could be expected to meet? 

I do think that only real justification for the cup at the moment, sadly, is "it's what we've always done".  

[soulboy]

17 hours ago, Jughead said:

Not defending any club here but what promotion has there been for this by the RFL and the BBC? Who actually knows that this is going on outside of us lot, the people who actually follow the sport?

If you want an event, make it one. 

Nil promotion by the BBC is par for the course.
RL is just a filler in of time for the good old Beeb.

Expect nil promotion for RLWC .

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I'm not really old enough to remember that sort of era, only really getting into RL in the mid-90s, but did cup games back then feel more distinctive? Did the cup benefit from Wigan's dominance of the league (even though Wigan also dominated the cup, was there was that "on any given Sunday" sense of an upset)? 

I think the point about fixture fatigue when we talk about it today is in the sense of - does this really feel any different or better (or at least, "please pay an extra £25-30" different or better) to the other times this year that Wigan and St Helens have, will, or could be expected to meet? 

I do think that only real justification for the cup at the moment, sadly, is "it's what we've always done".  

For me the cup games feel the same as ever - as a Wire fan, it is where I have seen most of my clubs success. I think the knockout element is brilliant and creates nerves that a league game just doesn't. The highs of winning are far greater than a league game, the downer of losing far worse, and winning a semi final is the best feeling ever, for me even greater than actually winning the final. 

I think Cup comps still have their place - they are part of major sporting culture over here, whether that is FA Cup, or European Cups and our own Challenge Cup - but they do have to be done well. Ours right now is a 'blink and you'll miss it' tournament for SL clubs, and the challenge just isn't enough. I even remember watching Wire in a preliminary round (iirc).

I think the whole narrative has been ruined to an extent with the seeding. Being in a large draw with many lower teams (even amateur) had a sense of excitement - lower teams wanted big teams, big teams wanted an 'easy' game and everyone wanted their big rivals to draw each other. Nowadays I don't even really bother who we have drawn, that draw should be the first page of the story. 

I think it's worse than "it's what we've always done" I think it's a case of "it's what we've always done - but crapper!". 

 

[RP London]

29 minutes ago, Damien said:

That's presuming hiring a big 40k stadium like Elland Road, which requires far more staff and has greater overheads, for a longer period of time is any cheaper than hiring somewhere small venues like the Halliwell Jones and Headingley. I doubt its really in Leeds United's interest to hire it out for peanuts when they get £100 million plus from simply being in the Premier League.

Indeed.. one would presume though that it is as there are economies to be had 1 example being you only have 1 set up of the stadium and one end so the "book ends" where you need staff is reduced by 2 therefore the extra time needed for staff when paying punters arent there should be less. 

Of course it may not be cheaper but you would certainly presume it would be... if it isnt then i think we need to get the gang back together and storm the RFL headquarters looking for our sacrificial lamb (i'll vote for Rimmer, just for old times sake)

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, RP London said:

Indeed.. one would presume though that it is as there are economies to be had 1 example being you only have 1 set up of the stadium and one end so the "book ends" where you need staff is reduced by 2 therefore the extra time needed for staff when paying punters arent there should be less. 

Of course it may not be cheaper but you would certainly presume it would be... if it isnt then i think we need to get the gang back together and storm the RFL headquarters looking for our sacrificial lamb (i'll vote for Rimmer, just for old times sake)

I think there is a perception benefit of being able to hire a marquee stadium, staging an event that looks better (26k at Bolton seemed better than 10k at Warrington, even if not all in at the same time) - but it was disappointing that the 26k never kicked on to become 30k and so on. 

If it's reversed to 20k, then the double header should be dead. The women's final should never have been included anyway. 

[Just Browny]

37 minutes ago, Damien said:

That's presuming hiring a big 40k stadium like Elland Road, which requires far more staff and has greater overheads, for a longer period of time is any cheaper than hiring somewhere small venues like the Halliwell Jones and Headingley. I doubt its really in Leeds United's interest to hire it out for peanuts when they get £100 million plus from simply being in the Premier League.

Sure, but one thing you can't accuse the RFL of is poor accountancy. They will know whether 25k in Elland Road on one day is more or less profitable than Leigh and Doncaster over a weekend. If Elland Road is costing more than it is worth they will do something different next year.

Where they do struggle often is making these things into the best events they can be, which is probably why the attendance figures are as flat as they are. We always used to moan about semis being in smallish stadiums like Widnes or the HJ too, although I have fond memories of the atmospheres at some of those games.

[Dave T]

I must admit, one of the biggest things for me now at RL events is just that they are done on the cheap. The sport is top notch, but more and more the events seem bargain basement stuff. 

25 years ago I think we were pretty good at some of the ancillary stuff around events - we were one of the first with fanzones, video screens, music, dancers, live music, fireworks etc. Now we need to love with the times, so I'm not saying we should just still be doing the same things, but the last few events I have been just haven't captured my imagination and made me feel that I absolutely must look out for when the next tickets are on sale. 

I'm talking an England International at the Olympic Stadium, a Grand Final as a neutral, a Cup Final where Wire won, a Magic Weekend at Newcastle - all of these events now just seem like huge pee-ups and little else to add value. 

I think the events lack some quality, and the presence of Rugby AM presenters was a perfect illustration of this - I think people expect a little more from their events nowadays, and I see little that makes them must-see events. Apart from the actual sport obviously, which is enough for some, but not for enough to fill grounds. 

[RP London]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think there is a perception benefit of being able to hire a marquee stadium, staging an event that looks better (26k at Bolton seemed better than 10k at Warrington, even if not all in at the same time) - but it was disappointing that the 26k never kicked on to become 30k and so on. 

If it's reversed to 20k, then the double header should be dead. The women's final should never have been included anyway. 

 

1 minute ago, Just Browny said:

Sure, but one thing you can't accuse the RFL of is poor accountancy. They will know whether 25k in Elland Road on one day is more or less profitable than Leigh and Doncaster over a weekend. If Elland Road is costing more than it is worth they will do something different next year.

Where they do struggle often is making these things into the best events they can be, which is probably why the attendance figures are as flat as they are. We always used to moan about semis being in smallish stadiums like Widnes or the HJ too, although I have fond memories of the atmospheres at some of those games.

agree with both those things.. by having a double header at a big marquee stadium you would like to think they could have pushed it onwards with the "event" side as well which would have had people going "ooh that was a good day out, i'll go again" and booking without knowing who was in (as i did with the challenge cup final this year, booking last August simply because I want to go to the stadium, if either Eagles or Warrington had got there then even better but if not I shall enjoy the occasion with my son and take in the new ground)

[RigbyLuger]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think the events lack some quality, and the presence of Rugby AM presenters was a perfect illustration of this

Booking him for Spurs suggests we haven't learned that lesson, depute plenty of negative opinions on the various fanzones they've run. (And the programme was never as popular as they'd have you believe, or it would still be on air.)

[graveyard johnny]

53 minutes ago, Josef K said:

Are the kiosks/bars at LUFC cashless or do they take cash. 

can you pay at the ground on the day? prefer cash 

[DoubleD]

3 hours ago, meast said:

I would have almost certainly have gone to watch the women's cup final had it not been at the time when I, and most of my fellow fans would be travelling to Leeds for our own game 5 hours later!

I am not prepared to squeeze into a tiny cramped space inside Elland Road for that amount of time.

Madness, sheer madness, it should be a stand alone game to help grow the womens game not make it some sideshow event.

A triple header is an overload even for an avid RL fan like myself, let alone having to sit in an uncomfortable stadium. The women's game should be a standalone showpiece event as you say

[Scubby]

48 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I must admit, one of the biggest things for me now at RL events is just that they are done on the cheap. The sport is top notch, but more and more the events seem bargain basement stuff. 

25 years ago I think we were pretty good at some of the ancillary stuff around events - we were one of the first with fanzones, video screens, music, dancers, live music, fireworks etc. Now we need to love with the times, so I'm not saying we should just still be doing the same things, but the last few events I have been just haven't captured my imagination and made me feel that I absolutely must look out for when the next tickets are on sale. 

I'm talking an England International at the Olympic Stadium, a Grand Final as a neutral, a Cup Final where Wire won, a Magic Weekend at Newcastle - all of these events now just seem like huge pee-ups and little else to add value. 

I think the events lack some quality, and the presence of Rugby AM presenters was a perfect illustration of this - I think people expect a little more from their events nowadays, and I see little that makes them must-see events. Apart from the actual sport obviously, which is enough for some, but not for enough to fill grounds. 

Ralph Rimmer is everything Rugby League doesn't need at the moment. A silhouette of a CEO with absolutely no vision for the game and where it needs to be. 

His entire skillset seems to be cloth cutter for the ever diminishing RL funds. It wouldn't surprise me if he was the one that panicked and encouraged the downsizing of the RLWC venues. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Scubby