Less than 20,000 sold for Cup Semi Triple Header it seems

[gingerjon]

Just now, RP London said:

me too.. while typing my answer I did wonder where Transworld Sport had gone too.. loved that show! 

It's still going, apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/c/TWSfeatures

[Mattrhino]

1 hour ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

You don't think there will be at least 22k there? And if it is around the 25k mark what does that mean about the stadium choice? 

I'm not suggesting people are lying - i'm saying it's a convenient excuse that only seems to affect spectators of RL at ER. As I said before, i'm under no illusions of ER's problems but 'awful' really? Based on what? 

I stick by the reasons that I believe the attendance won't be as good as it could have been - the stadium choice is way down on that list, almost to the point of irrelevance. Many fans i'm sure have their own genuine reasons - the ones mentioning the stadium just seem fair weather frankly. 

As a side note, if we can't sell out Tottenham stadium for the final (arguably the best stadium in the world) then I wonder what excuses will be given then.....

Its a pain to get to and a dodgy area. I didn't particularly enjoy the experience at White Hart Lane for the NFL. Much prefer Wembley.

[RP London]

9 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

It's still going, apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/c/TWSfeatures

No work getting done today now!

[wilsontown]

4 hours ago, gingerjon said:

£10 adults, £5 concessions, kids free. Pick a ground where the majority of the crowd can be put in a stand facing the cameras.

At a guess, anything in the 3,000 - 6,000 range.

Does that make a profit? No real idea TBH. But it also gives the match the respect it deserves and puts TGG at least on a level with our sporting rivals.

Could have played the game at the LNER in York and bigged up that the women's World Cup semi-finals will also be played there.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, wilsontown said:

Could have played the game at the LNER in York and bigged up that the women's World Cup semi-finals will also be played there.

Yes - something like that would have worked well.

Instead, the whole narrative is now bound up with two underperforming men's semi finals.

[RigbyLuger]

If we're complaining about the RFL's marketing of the semis, what makes us think they'd do a better job with a standalone women's final?

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Sorry to say, but I feel like you're comparing apples to oranges there, Dave. One was a 4N final that many hoped/expected England would get to, the other an underwhelming 3 match series against NZ for the second time in 3 years. I can not believe 14,000 people stayed away because people didn't like the Anfield experience. Novelty factor maybe played a part, but that's true of all stadiums. 

I'm starting to wonder what RL fans believe qualifies as a quality stadium? 

I agree with your last point but i'm not sure what that actually means for RL when it comes to these games where we pick a venue? It feels like it means we're more fussy because demand is so low and unless it's perfect we'll just stay away? 

The problem is that your theory doesn't stack up for any other series - Finals don't just get good crowds as standard and certainly not far higher than an England game. I have given two examples where the stadium experience was cited by fans as poor and crowds dropped considerably for games that should have had higher demand. We see time and again that we benefit from a novelty element, even Elland Rd to an extent when England played there for the first time in a long time - but we don't have a large enough audience to ignore the negative elements.

To try and use some hypothetical numbers to make my point - a Leeds Utd game probably has maybe 60k demand for their 38k tickets. So even with a poor ground, maybe a 10% decrease factor, would see demand reach 55k and still fill the ground. Our demand level for semi finals has proven to be around that 25k mark - if we get a 10% drop we visibly see that drop.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we got 26k at Bolton, so if we get 20k at Leeds it is because of cramped seats - of course it is more complex than that, and there are a myriad of reasons, but I certainly think it is higher up that list.

I do agree with you on the financial environment having an impact - we play on being an affordable sport, but we seem to be doing little on that when the country is seeing a financial squeeze. In fact we seem to have gone the other way and started selling tickets for £55 for the semi finals and put ticket prices up hugely for the World Cup. We do need to be mindful of what is happening in the real world.

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

If we're complaining about the RFL's marketing of the semis, what makes us think they'd do a better job with a standalone women's final?

In reality, the women's game is in its infancy and at such a level that you get away with it somewhat and can get away with some organic growth. We have seen that we could attract 3 to 5k for this kind of game - and fans understand the state of womens team sport in this country - they see football teams playing in small grounds, but with healthy and passionate crowds - we can do that with 5k at Warrington in the seats, or York, or other small grounds like that and put on a positive display. 

Unfortunately, this womens final is the third biggest game in the stadium on Saturday,

[HawkMan]

Rugby League fans do have trouble with events held at Football stadiums that hitherto have caused no problems for hundreds of thousands of others over the years. But it's not our  fault. Before making pronouncements about whether White Hart Lane or Anfield is world class, those people claiming that they are should ask if it can hold a RL event.

Rugby League is the true world class game and a stadium should be able to hold a RL event to gain world class status. The Jungle can hold a satisfactory RL event, Anfield Elland Rd and probably WHL cannot. Therefore The Jungle is world class and Anfield WHL Elland Rd aren't. QED! 

Edited May 5, 2022 by HawkMan

[Exiled Wiganer]

I’m sorry, and I know it’s petty. But it should be “fewer”... 

[Josef K]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

The problem is that your theory doesn't stack up for any other series - Finals don't just get good crowds as standard and certainly not far higher than an England game. I have given two examples where the stadium experience was cited by fans as poor and crowds dropped considerably for games that should have had higher demand. We see time and again that we benefit from a novelty element, even Elland Rd to an extent when England played there for the first time in a long time - but we don't have a large enough audience to ignore the negative elements.

To try and use some hypothetical numbers to make my point - a Leeds Utd game probably has maybe 60k demand for their 38k tickets. So even with a poor ground, maybe a 10% decrease factor, would see demand reach 55k and still fill the ground. Our demand level for semi finals has proven to be around that 25k mark - if we get a 10% drop we visibly see that drop.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we got 26k at Bolton, so if we get 20k at Leeds it is because of cramped seats - of course it is more complex than that, and there are a myriad of reasons, but I certainly think it is higher up that list.

I do agree with you on the financial environment having an impact - we play on being an affordable sport, but we seem to be doing little on that when the country is seeing a financial squeeze. In fact we seem to have gone the other way and started selling tickets for £55 for the semi finals and put ticket prices up hugely for the World Cup. We do need to be mindful of what is happening in the real world.

IF (and it’s a big if) saints did manage to get to the CC Final i won’t be going, i have just spent £155 for some RLWC tickets. The final at Old Trafford has cost me £85, that has meant i just haven’t got the cash for the CC Final. 

[Dave T]

21 minutes ago, Josef K said:

IF (and it’s a big if) saints did manage to get to the CC Final i won’t be going, i have just spent £155 for some RLWC tickets. The final at Old Trafford has cost me £85, that has meant i just haven’t got the cash for the CC Final. 

I looked at some numbers a while back and iirc where we staged a major international tournaments we did see a drop off at some other events - suggesting we are at saturation point. 

[Moove]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I looked at some numbers a while back and iirc where we staged a major international tournaments we did see a drop off at some other events - suggesting we are at saturation point. 

I think that's a big problem with the 'always fishing in the same pond' approach we often take in RL. Including the women's final this weekend is a good example of that rather than giving it opportunity to grow a following in it's own right. Not to say there isn't a crossover of course but I do know the Saints ladies team have attracted a few younger followers who wouldn't typically go to the men's games.

Internationals is the frustrating one as that has often in the past brought out an extra following of its own. Not sure how much the lack of a substantial and stable international calendar over the years has impacted that.

Relying on the same people to attend all these events is a big risk.

[daz39]

The fact that Elland road is an awful ground even for an 80 minute game but you are asking people to spend anything upto £55 to be inside it with no pass-out or anything else happening inside the ground for 7 hours, the number of people who will enter the stadium before the women's final and still be there at the end of the 2nd semi-final probably won't even be in 3 figures, maybe by allowing fans in and out with food/drink/music etc happening around the dump the games are being played in may have added a bit more attraction, certainly to neutrals but the RFL have absolutely got this 'event' massively wrong expecting people to pay that sort of money be cooped up in one of the worse stadiums posible for that length of time, it's literally a case of 'buy a ticket and just sit there for 7 hours', no-one in their right mind will do that at a venue like Elland Road, an awful, awful choice for this kind of 'event'.

[daz39]

20 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Dave, you talk about the 'par' like there's loads of other to go off - there's been 2 double headers and if you want to look at how it was trending it was 26k 2018 then 24k 2019.....22k the third time round looks right on trend to me. 

Also we're looking at a 3 year gap since the last and LOT has changed since then, not least of all the time of year this is now played at which time will tell if that too could have an impact. Also my point about 38k wasn't the number per se, more to point yes there's a couple of the sections of the ground where it's a bit tight (same as OT) but it's hardly a huge factor in putting people off, despite what this forum may have you believe. 

But the 38,000 you mention are Leeds united fans going to Leeds united's ground to watch Leeds united play, they will do this blindly as most fans of any team does, the ground will have very little impact on them attending, this is a totally different scenario, we are trying to get neutral rugby league fans to go to a place they know is not comfortable or enjoyable and to sit through 3 games of Rugby not involving their team, the venue is absolutely a massive factor for them.

[daz39]

16 hours ago, Scubby said:

I think the SL Grand Final at Leeds got around 5,500 last year.

That wasn't a standalone event neither, it featured the women's shield final too.

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, daz39 said:

That wasn't a standalone event neither, it featured the women's shield final too.

At least there is some semblance of sense in that. Tagging it onto two men's semi-finals, no thanks.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

20 minutes ago, daz39 said:

But the 38,000 you mention are Leeds united fans going to Leeds united's ground to watch Leeds united play, they will do this blindly as most fans of any team does, the ground will have very little impact on them attending, this is a totally different scenario, we are trying to get neutral rugby league fans to go to a place they know is not comfortable or enjoyable and to sit through 3 games of Rugby not involving their team, the venue is absolutely a massive factor for them.

That becomes a bit of a moot point when you consider it was a sell out for Scotland v Italy RU......

Also can we stop peddling this myth that anything like most of the ground is cramped/uncomfortable - it's really not. Yes there are some sections where it's a little tight for 6ft + people...easily solved if you just move. This was never going to be a sell out, so again I don't buy that been a huge issue. As for 'not enjoyable' - not sure how you can predetermine that to be honest? 

[daz39]

12 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

That becomes a bit of a moot point when you consider it was a sell out for Scotland v Italy RU......

Also can we stop peddling this myth that anything like most of the ground is cramped/uncomfortable - it's really not. Yes there are some sections where it's a little tight for 6ft + people...easily solved if you just move. This was never going to be a sell out, so again I don't buy that been a huge issue. As for 'not enjoyable' - not sure how you can predetermine that to be honest? 

I've been in 3 or 4 different areas of Elland road over the years and everytime i've had either a cramped seat, poor view or both.

And not enjoyable as in it just doesn't appeal as a venue people want to go to, it's far out of the city, there are no facilities around unless you can call a McDonalds and a pub that, no possibility of moving around the ground or taking a break from the rugby by leaving and returning at their own free will but that would be pointless as there is nowhere to go or nothing to do in or around the stadium.

I get as an LUFC fan you see ER in a different light to non LUFC fans, a lot of them if you ask have got negative thoughts, experiences or opinions on it, it's not a place a lot fo people wish to vist and spend 7 hours of their time stuck inside of.

[RigbyLuger]

Aren't you allowed to leave at all, as you can at Magic?

[daz39]

8 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

Aren't you allowed to leave at all, as you can at Magic?

Nope, once you're in you're in!

[Damien]

32 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

That becomes a bit of a moot point when you consider it was a sell out for Scotland v Italy RU......

Also can we stop peddling this myth that anything like most of the ground is cramped/uncomfortable - it's really not. Yes there are some sections where it's a little tight for 6ft + people...easily solved if you just move. This was never going to be a sell out, so again I don't buy that been a huge issue. As for 'not enjoyable' - not sure how you can predetermine that to be honest? 

Whether that is right or wrong blaming fans for saying their view is wrong isn't the way to get more people to attend. All of the fans who have stated various reasons why attending this isn't for them cannot be wrong. Even if they were then you still need to take their views on board as they are the customer. Its not like the RFL have got this right or this discussion wouldn't be taking place and we'd be on course for a sellout or even just a 30k crowd.

You have to give fans what they want and you have to give them a reason why they want to attend. This is even more so when the said matches are all on TV and you can watch them from the comfort of your living room for no money. Saying they are wrong or peddling myths does not get anyone else to go.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Damien

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Moove said:

I think that's a big problem with the 'always fishing in the same pond' approach we often take in RL. Including the women's final this weekend is a good example of that rather than giving it opportunity to grow a following in it's own right. Not to say there isn't a crossover of course but I do know the Saints ladies team have attracted a few younger followers who wouldn't typically go to the men's games.

Internationals is the frustrating one as that has often in the past brought out an extra following of its own. Not sure how much the lack of a substantial and stable international calendar over the years has impacted that.

Relying on the same people to attend all these events is a big risk.

It's a very good point about the ladies final. The monetary value isn't £25 but that is the price you have to pay if you want to watch it. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

Just now, Dave T said:

It's a very good point about the ladies final. The monetary value isn't £25 but that is the price you have to pay if you want to watch it. 

It is, as a Leeds Rhinos season ticket holder I’m not going to pay £25 to go and watch Leeds in the Women’s Final, £5-£10 and I’d consider going, some might see that disrespectful but that’s the facts of it, there will be some, but I don’t think there will be many Leeds fans at the game. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

It is, as a Leeds Rhinos season ticket holder I’m not going to pay £25 to go and watch Leeds in the Women’s Final, £5-£10 and I’d consider going, some might see that disrespectful but that’s the facts of it, there will be some, but I don’t think there will be many Leeds fans at the game. 

Yes, the disrespect of throwing this game in as a freebie for the men's fans completely ignores the fact that maybe fans of the Women's game have no interest in the mens games.