Less than 20,000 sold for Cup Semi Triple Header it seems

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Scubby said:

Certainly lost its pep in recent days!

That's enough. 

[Dave T]

43 minutes ago, Damien said:

The FA and RFU have little trouble selling events and attracting fans. They also don't look to constantly sell to the same limited pool of people.

RL on the other hand does. For a triple header where you are looking to attract neutrals making it hard for amateur players and fans to attend instantly takes away a good portion of that target market. 

I agree (we must stop making this a regular thing). I'm really disappointed that our attempts to grow the womens game has been purely to try and sell it to our existing crowd. It shows how useless and lacking in faith they are in the version. 

When watching on TV it is quite clear that the women's football and rugby union versions are watched by quite different crowds, yet we seem to want to just flog it as a freebie to supporters of the men's game. 

I'm looking forward to the womens and wheelchair RLWC's this year to take my 6 year old daughter to hopefully get her inspired by the women and wheelchair athletes. I may not take her to a single men's game. I don't think we recognise that these things can widen our audience and diversify the fan base of RL. 

[daz39]

3 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

I'm not blaming anyone for anything? I'm disputing the stadium choice being a key contributing factor as to why this attendance might not be great. 

You say give fans what they want...well what is they want and was there a stadium available that can accommodate that? Again, to me it comes back to we don't have enough people that are actually wanting to attendance this game and there's plenty of strong valid reasons why that may be - i'm not even doubting that for a few it might be the stadium. But I can't get onboard with the idea that ER and Anfield as stadiums are keeping people away in their droves. 

 

 

Of course it makes a difference, if you don't like going to a particular stadium because you've had a bad experience your hardly going to make a concerted effort to attend a game/event at that particular stadium, a lot of RL fans dislike ER and Anfield and therefore will choose not to go, unfortunately we have to announce venues and can't offer the fans 'mystery venues' on the day to try and eliminate that element.

You obviously have an affiliation with ER and will never see it in the same way non LUFC fans do so you will not accept the fact that people will choose NOT to attend based on the venue.

As i said after our QF win the elation of reaching the semi final was diluted by the reality that it would be played at Elland road, the fact i want to be there for the Semi final means i will have to endure Elland Road but if my team weren't playing i would never choose to attend either ER or Anfield as i don't like them, just as lots of other supporters of other teams/sports will not.

[HawkMan]

37 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Since it went off FTA it has declined imo, as has the rest of the Champions League.

Are you sure? 

https://frontofficesports.com/psg-president-champions-league-should-be-bigger-than-super-bowl/#:~:text=The 2021 Champions League final,Champions League do the same.

700 million tv viewers for CL vs 112 million for Super Bowl. 

[Damien]

56 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I agree (we must stop making this a regular thing). I'm really disappointed that our attempts to grow the womens game has been purely to try and sell it to our existing crowd. It shows how useless and lacking in faith they are in the version. 

When watching on TV it is quite clear that the women's football and rugby union versions are watched by quite different crowds, yet we seem to want to just flog it as a freebie to supporters of the men's game. 

I'm looking forward to the womens and wheelchair RLWC's this year to take my 6 year old daughter to hopefully get her inspired by the women and wheelchair athletes. I may not take her to a single men's game. I don't think we recognise that these things can widen our audience and diversify the fan base of RL. 

I agree 

The women's game offers a huge opportunity for growth and can reach a completely different target market. I don't think it faces the same obstacles and baggage as the men's game and I think it can grow and attract people in areas where the men's game is banging its head against a wall. I also think in areas like sponsorship it may find things easier too. There are a lot of open doors at the moment when it comes to women's sport and RL shouldn't be left behind.

To be fair I do think we generally agree more than disagree too.

[Tommygilf]

38 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Are you sure? 

https://frontofficesports.com/psg-president-champions-league-should-be-bigger-than-super-bowl/#:~:text=The 2021 Champions League final,Champions League do the same.

700 million tv viewers for CL vs 112 million for Super Bowl. 

In the UK I should have made clear

[hunsletgreenandgold]

14 hours ago, Dave T said:

Why don't you think where we stage the game is a major factor in attendances? It would (to me) feel like an absolutely crucial factor. 

Because I think there's many more important factors that come way before the stadium choice as to why people are/aren't attending. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by hunsletgreenandgold

[Scubby]

The only redeeming factor is that people will be able to watch all three games live on the BBC free to air on Saturday.

My elderly relatives are too infirm to go to games any longer. Yet they were excited about sitting down to watch the women's final and 2x semi finals on the beeb on Saturday. 

The Challenge Cup now appears to be created as a made for TV sport. I fear that we could be looking at 50-60% occupancy at the final at Spurs and the lowest Challenge Cup final attendance since the war (barring Covid restricted 2020, 2021)

[hunsletgreenandgold]

14 hours ago, daz39 said:

Of course it makes a difference, if you don't like going to a particular stadium because you've had a bad experience your hardly going to make a concerted effort to attend a game/event at that particular stadium, a lot of RL fans dislike ER and Anfield and therefore will choose not to go, unfortunately we have to announce venues and can't offer the fans 'mystery venues' on the day to try and eliminate that element.

You obviously have an affiliation with ER and will never see it in the same way non LUFC fans do so you will not accept the fact that people will choose NOT to attend based on the venue.

As i said after our QF win the elation of reaching the semi final was diluted by the reality that it would be played at Elland road, the fact i want to be there for the Semi final means i will have to endure Elland Road but if my team weren't playing i would never choose to attend either ER or Anfield as i don't like them, just as lots of other supporters of other teams/sports will not.

There is literally no evidence to back this up - a few anecdotal comments don't validate that comment. 

I see ER for exactly what it is - a stadium that at least 2 stands needs knocking down and rebuilding. Mainly to increase attendance but also to extend corporate facilities. That said, what exists there at the moment is lots of recently refurbished (or semi-refurbished at least) concourses and facilities that surpass all SL stadiums by a country mile. I notice nobody answered my previous question of 'What do RL fans want and what stadium would that be at?' 

Hahaha I've never heard such a dramatic response! You're playing at a Premier League football stadium for goodness sake - bless your fragile heart having to 'endure' that. Doesn't seem to have bothered Hull KR fans that much......

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by hunsletgreenandgold

[Scubby]

26 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

There is literally no evidence to back this up - a few anecdotal comments don't validate that comment. 

I see ER for exactly what it is - a stadium that at least 2 stands needs knocking down and rebuilding. Mainly to increase attendance but also to extend corporate facilities. That said, what exists there at the moment is lots of recently refurbished (or semi-refurbished at least) concourses and facilities that surpass all SL stadiums by a country mile. I notice nobody answered my previous question of 'What do RL fans want and what stadium would that be at?' 

Hahaha I've never heard such a dramatic response! You're playing at a Premier League football stadium for goodness sake - bless your fragile heart having to 'endure' that. Doesn't seem to have bothered Hull KR fans that much......

 

You make some very valid points. I think the annoying thing here is the idea the the RFL wants to create an event day with 5-6 hours of entertainment in a large stadium - yet do everything they can to stop it actually being an event by lack of vision and venue choice.

Whether we argue the toss or not, it's clear many RL fans don't want to be cooped up at Elland Road from noon to 6pm - there isn't even a pass/in pass/out system here. 

Newcastle works better because it does allow fans to stream in and out and it is right in the city centre. Even Headingley has the potential to be okay for the bash as fans can sit on the terraces or potentially spill over onto the cricket side and sit quietly in the sun and eat lunch etc.

When all said and done, there is nothing festival like about the Challenge Cup semi finals. They are tribal games for fans with the potential for a huge high or a devastating low. Trying to make that fun is backing the wrong horse sadly.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Scubby said:

You make some very valid points. I think the annoying thing here is the idea the the RFL wants to create an event day with 5-6 hours of entertainment in a large stadium - yet do everything they can to stop it actually being an event by lack of vision and venue choice.

Whether we argue the toss or not, it's clear many RL fans don't want to be cooped up at Elland Road from noon to 6pm - there isn't even a pass/in pass/out system here. 

Newcastle works better because it does allow fans to stream in and out and it is right in the city centre. Even Headingley has the potential to be okay for the bash as fans can sit on the terraces or potentially spill over onto the cricket side and sit quietly in the sun and eat lunch etc.

When all said and done, there is nothing festival like about the Challenge Cup semi finals. They are tribal games for fans with the potential for a huge high or a devastating low. Trying to make that fun is backing the wrong horse sadly.

Yes, ultimately, it's a not great idea being delivered not particularly well.

But, hopefully, and, as always, the games on the field will deliver regardless.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

10 minutes ago, Scubby said:

You make some very valid points. I think the annoying thing here is the idea the the RFL wants to create an event day with 5-6 hours of entertainment in a large stadium - yet do everything they can to stop it actually being an event by lack of vision and venue choice.

Whether we argue the toss or not, it's clear many RL fans don't want to be cooped up at Elland Road from noon to 6pm - there isn't even a pass/in pass/out system here. 

Newcastle works better because it does allow fans to stream in and out and it is right in the city centre. Even Headingley has the potential to be okay for the bash as fans can sit on the terraces or potentially spill over onto the cricket side and sit quietly in the sun and eat lunch etc.

When all said and done, there is nothing festival like about the Challenge Cup semi finals. They are tribal games for fans with the potential for a huge high or a devastating low. Trying to make that fun is backing the wrong horse sadly.

Just on that point - was that the same when held in Bolton do you know? 

But as you rightly point out - this isn't the same as Magic/Bash festival of RL type vibes. It's high stakes and intense and i'd expect most of the crowd to be fans with a vested interest in the game. 

[Scubby]

3 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Just on that point - was that the same when held in Bolton do you know? 

But as you rightly point out - this isn't the same as Magic/Bash festival of RL type vibes. It's high stakes and intense and i'd expect most of the crowd to be fans with a vested interest in the game. 

Yes, this is the point more than anything. If Saints have tanked Wigan or vice versa - the winning fans want to go and celebrate and the losing fans just want to disappear. These aren't random league games or exhibitions - that's why semi finals have historically failed to attract neutrals.

[redjonn]

15 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Semi finals are not games to attract neutral fans in any sport 

In the main I would absolute agree. I can not think why anyone would think that a semi-final event and especially RL would attract large percentage of neutrals.

One exception could be a corporate offering, Not a major factor though.

Plus I can not fathom why the Women's final is part of it. It should be standalone.  Although I may not be the average RL fan I would be taken the family to the womens final if it was standalone and priced appropriately.  I'll be going the the Netball game at the Leeds arena on Sunday and and it could have been a great weekend of womens sport in Leeds.

Edited May 6, 2022 by redjonn

[DimmestStar]

15 hours ago, daz39 said:

Excellent numbers  but how do you know who people that bought from the RFL support? do you have to disclose your allegiance?

Lots of Rovers supporters have said that they bought their tickets off the RFL. This was because they could then choose their exact seats whereas buying from Rovers this was not possible.

The 6,000 figure is just the number bought from Hull KR the true number of Rovers fans attending will be quite a bit more.

[Big Picture]

I've seen a few posters lamenting the RFL's inability to make the Cup Semi-Finals a "big event".

My question for those posters is this: with the teams in these Semi-Finals representing four towns which the British public almost certainly doesn't associate with big events or with big time major pro sport, just how do you suggest the RFL make them a big event?

[Leyther_Matt]

1 hour ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Just on that point - was that the same when held in Bolton do you know? 

Absolutely, yes.

I actually went to that one (Warrington v Hull, Saints v Halifax) as a neutral (one box ticked) and stayed for both games (two boxes ticked, I'm a unicorn on this theme).

Traffic was a nightmare - lower crowd than a BWFC game but it took me over an hour to travel 7 miles rather than the usual 15 minutes - and bar queues weren't much better. Ended up missing the first 15 minutes of the second half of the first game because, having started queuing just before half-time, I was determined to get my flat pint and lukewarm pie!

It was very noticeable how each section of the stadium filled/emptied in relation to which team was playing. For a showpiece game like a semi final, they really should be given a stage of their own to be the only game that matters that day. I'd offer the same argument to the 1895 Cup (RIP Northern Rail Cup) but that's another topic altogether.

[Damien]

10 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

I've seen a few posters lamenting the RFL's inability to make the Cup Semi-Finals a "big event".

My question for those posters is this: with the teams in these Semi-Finals representing four towns which the British public almost certainly doesn't associate with big events or with big time major pro sport, just how do you suggest the RFL make them a big event?

The reasons, or failings, with the triple header have been thoroughly discussed on this thread and the bit in bold has absolutely zero to do with it. The main failings are that this event hasn't even sold to the core target market, in particular the fans of the two biggest teams involved and the wider RL fanbase. Its not failing because it hasn't sold to the wider British public who have no knowledge of the game or its clubs.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Damien

[Big Picture]

11 minutes ago, Damien said:

The reasons, or failings, with the triple header have been thoroughly discussed on this thread and the bit in bold has absolutely zero to do with it. The main failings are that this event hasn't even sold to the core target market, in particular the fans of the two biggest teams involved and the wider RL fanbase. Its not failing because it hasn't sold to the wider British public who have no knowledge of the game or its clubs.

On the contrary, the FL fan base is a limited number (and with limited means) as the concern about crowds demonstrates, so there's a need to sell tickets to persons outside that immediate RL fan base and expand it.  The bit you put in bold has everything to do with whether they can do that.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Big Picture

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

On the contrary, the FL fan base is a limited number as the concern about crowds demonstrates, so there's a need to sell tickets to persons outside that immediate RL fan base and expand it.  The bit you put in bold has everything to do with whether they can do that.

I dont doubt we need to attract people outside the fanbase. No one does and that has also been discussed. The reasons for not doing that with this event though is not because of the names of the teams. That is what I dispute when we discuss why this triple header at Elland Road is not selling as desired.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

There is literally no evidence to back this up - a few anecdotal comments don't validate that comment. 

 

 

You keep saying this, but evidence has been provided - it is your prerogative to dismiss it and say it is other reasons, but in the absence of black and white evidence we need to apply some common sense to what we see.

And it is important that when we talk about grounds, it is not just the legroom, but it is the whole thing, location, transport links, area, quality, viewing points etc.

Example 1. Four Nations 2014 - Olympic Stadium vs NZ - 44,393 - 2 years later versus the Aussies 35,569. Now there were other factors at play here - scheduling (Saturday vs Sunday), but that is a huge drop for a game that always delivers higher crowds than the NZ game. The experience at the Olympic Stadium was terrible in that first game, and it was no surprise that there was a huge drop for that 2nd one.

Example 2. Four Nations 2016 - Anfield 40k - for the final versus NZ and Aus - that was a great crowd and there was clearly a huge uplift for the novelty of going to Anfield. Two years later, we went back there for a game that featured England and we knocked 14k off that crowd.  The 26k wasn't terrible in itself for a game versus the Kiwis, but the second huge drop in two years cannot be ignored.

Example 3. Following on from the above - Magic Weekend delivered the following:

62k, 64k, 68k, 68k, 65k, 64k, 57k, 61k.  Spot the odd one out?

 

Of course, we are RL fans, we will moan about all sorts of things, but there is absolutely evidence that fans are voting with their feet when it comes to stadium choice. I hope this weekend isn't one of them, as I don't think Elland Road is that bad that it should put fans off going to see their team in a semi final, but similarly it isn;t good enough to draw in the neutrals to sit for 8 hours there.

[Damien]

@Big PictureTo put this in a different way, doing exactly the same triple header at Elland Road and having teams named Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield and London there would sell to absolutely no more neutrals than we will get on Saturday. Instead we'd be lucky to get 4 figures. Not having big city names doesn't even rate on the list of reasons why this event hasn't captured the imagination.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Damien

[Gerrumonside ref]

Will the RFL lose money on this can anyone guess?

What is the break even point for these kinds of double-headers?

Would Saints-Wigan at Warrington and Hull KR vs Huddersfield at Headingley not have made more sense?

Proportionally bigger crowds in rugby league stadiums earning and keeping the extra revenue in the game.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Gerrumonside ref

[Dave T]

Just now, Gerrumonside ref said:

Will the RFL lose money on this can anyone guess?

What is the break even point for these kinds of double-headers?

Would Saints-Wigan at Warrington and Hull KR vs Huddersfield at Headingley not have made more sense?

Proportionally bigger crowds in rugby league stadiums earning extra revenue?

I expect financially it'll be ok. No more no less. 

[Bobby123]

On 03/05/2022 at 21:43, Eddie said:

What about if Catalans or Toulouse get to a final? 

We will hold it on the M1