Less than 20,000 sold for Cup Semi Triple Header it seems

[whatmichaelsays]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

We have the cup for exposure like the 1m peak tv viewers that has just been announced. Plus the sponsorship and TV deal that comes with it. The commercials may be modest (aren't they all in RL), but it is one of the major assets that we have. 

We also see things like Whitehaven welcoming Saints and getting their largest crowd for years, we shouldn't just judge the cup by things like Wire's 2.5k v Wakefield. 

There is a model that makes money and returns decent crowds (season tickets) - the only risk is whether we feel that we are at peak price point for our season tickets, there is little to suggest that is the case. 

The Cup has everything setup to be a really strong asset, but how we use it is rubbish, typically. 

I'd agree with a lot of that. There is a lot of potential there.

My concern is that there seems to a real lack of understanding of how the sport maximises those areas of strength (as you say, 1m people watching a game as close as the St Helens v Wigan semi was is not something to sniff at) into something that generates much more commercially than it currently does. 

If the answer to fixing the Challenge Cup is "give more of it away for free / more cheaply" and rely on the inertia of existing fanbases, as is oft suggested, I'm not sure we're barking up the right tree. Many of the 1m watching at the weekend were likely within easy reach of Elland Road, yet for I suspect multiple reasons, decided that what was on offer wasn't worth the investment in time, effort or finances. The real crux is how we make the CC something that more people feel is worth that investment. 

I'll also add, I'm not advocating that we do get rid of the cup, but I do think that if we're looking for answers on how to fix it, those answers have to have some commercial value because without it, you're not going to get much support. 

I also think that you can't try and fix the CC in isolation - the cup doesn't exist in a vacuum. It needs to be done in conjunction with all RFL / SLE competitions. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by whatmichaelsays

[RP London]

21 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

 

Problem is you start messing with the format and the locations. You can end up like the Powergen Cup/Anglo-Welsh now the Premiership Cup.  You go from 60 -75,000 at Twickenham every year to 8,000 at club stadiums.

yep absolutely agree.. its why i would be very reluctant to do it. 

I like the idea of a different venue every year and i have only just started to go down that route, i have been very "dont move from wembley" for years but this year I am going to the final and booked last august because of the venue so I can see the logic.. you dont go to just club grounds they need to be big and iconic so it may just be a rota of 5 or 6 and maybe that just isnt enough to keep the novelty factor.

The idea with the groups is to make little impact to the overall concept so you keep the community game link etc which the RU Cup lost.. 

I am not advocating doing it as I'm not sure it is that broken but if it were to go to a group format its the way I would want to see it done as it keeps the links that are already there. 

[Tommygilf]

43 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

 

Problem is you start messing with the format and the locations. You can end up like the Powergen Cup/Anglo-Welsh now the Premiership Cup.  You go from 60 -75,000 at Twickenham every year to 8,000 at club stadiums.

In fairness though that is because they have made it a reserve competition as the 2 European cups have taken far greater prominence.

[Tommygilf]

59 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Agreed, and that's what I refer to in my last line - but even with us being terrible and almost going out of our way to harm the comp, it still returns some great figures.

It does yes, but broadly speaking it is still a competition far from its heyday. We need more 1m watching Wigan vs St Helens if possible.

[Mattrhino]

9 minutes ago, RP London said:

yep absolutely agree.. its why i would be very reluctant to do it. 

I like the idea of a different venue every year and i have only just started to go down that route, i have been very "dont move from wembley" for years but this year I am going to the final and booked last august because of the venue so I can see the logic.. you dont go to just club grounds they need to be big and iconic so it may just be a rota of 5 or 6 and maybe that just isnt enough to keep the novelty factor.

The idea with the groups is to make little impact to the overall concept so you keep the community game link etc which the RU Cup lost.. 

I am not advocating doing it as I'm not sure it is that broken but if it were to go to a group format its the way I would want to see it done as it keeps the links that are already there. 

There will be a novelty factor at spurs this year and the crowd will likely be good albeit probably lower than if it were at Wembley.

With all its flaws Wembley is still the best imo. It has the space, the transport, the infrastructure.

I went to Spurs last year for the NFL and even though it is a good looking stadium it fell well short of what I am used to at Wembley. Your 20 minute amble down iconic Wembley way becomes a 1hr walk from Seven Sisters through the busy streets of an awful part of London and getting back to Central London good luck. 

There were long lines for toilets, drinks and food that you just don't get at Wembley. I missed 15 minutes of the 2nd half queuing for drinks at Spurs which never happened at Wembley. 

It just isn't the well oiled machine that Wembley is.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Well said. I dont really get the arguments to do away with the Challenge Cup. It is a historic competition that adds some much needed variety to the season and gives teams more to play for. As is I think the sport has been guilty of placing all its eggs in the SL basket and getting rid of the Challenge Cup leaves nothing else.

Yes it may not be what it was but the final is still our biggest or 2nd biggest attended event of the year. It is also the most lucrative for clubs and this alone makes it a final well worth getting to. Yes we have some poorly attended games but then we also have some good crowds and quality David v Goliath matches. I'm guessing clubs still make money even on some of the poorly attended games as you get paying fans rather than just more league games bolted on to season tickets.

It has also been our primary FTA outlet for a long time and without it the sport would have next to no relationship with the BBC, bar whatever fleeting internationals that may get arranged or World Cup. We ruin that at our peril.

When the Challenge Cup works it works really well. Lets face it the RFL have paid lip service to the Challenge Cup for years and you get out what you put in. The final experience in particular is woeful compared to the old Wembley with next to nothing going on and next to no build up. Moving about in the calendar doesn't help either.

I think there is a lot in that, I certainly don't think we should look to get rid of the cup, but reinventing it would go a long way to solving some critical issues.

[Toby Chopra]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Well said. I dont really get the arguments to do away with the Challenge Cup. It is a historic competition that adds some much needed variety to the season and gives teams more to play for. As is I think the sport has been guilty of placing all its eggs in the SL basket and getting rid of the Challenge Cup leaves nothing else.

Yes it may not be what it was but the final is still our biggest or 2nd biggest attended event of the year. It is also the most lucrative for clubs and this alone makes it a final well worth getting to. Yes we have some poorly attended games but then we also have some good crowds and quality David v Goliath matches. I'm guessing clubs still make money even on some of the poorly attended games as you get paying fans rather than just more league games bolted on to season tickets.

It has also been our primary FTA outlet for a long time and without it the sport would have next to no relationship with the BBC, bar whatever fleeting internationals that may get arranged or World Cup. We ruin that at our peril.

When the Challenge Cup works it works really well. Lets face it the RFL have paid lip service to the Challenge Cup for years and you get out what you put in. The final experience in particular is woeful compared to the old Wembley with next to nothing going on and next to no build up. Moving about in the calendar doesn't help either.

Agree with all that. The challenge cup may not be what it once was, but the context it exists in isn't the same either. All the proposals for change seem to create more probelms than they fix so I'd keep it as it is, but let's get a new long term slot for the final inked in. And no groups! 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Toby Chopra

[Mattrhino]

There was no fanzone because there isn't the space, everyone was just stood around on the pavements outside off-licences. There is no "event" feeling at Spurs its just a stadium you get in and out of as quickly as possible.

[Toby Chopra]

3 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

There will be a novelty factor at spurs this year and the crowd will likely be good albeit probably lower than if it were at Wembley.

With all its flaws Wembley is still the best imo. It has the space, the transport, the infrastructure.

I went to Spurs last year for the NFL and even though it is a good looking stadium it fell well short of what I am used to at Wembley. Your 20 minute amble down iconic Wembley way becomes a 1hr walk from Seven Sisters through the busy streets of an awful part of London and getting back to Central London good luck. 

There were long lines for toilets, drinks and food that you just don't get at Wembley. I missed 15 minutes of the 2nd half queuing for drinks at Spurs which never happened at Wembley. 

It just isn't the well oiled machine that Wembley is.

I'm a Spurs fan and love the new stadium, but I also agree with all that. Let's get back to Wembley asap, it's part of what makes the CC, whatever the crowd. Key is fixing a new window for the final long term. May is difficult with all the football. April's too early, so hopefully can get mid June before the summer concerts start. 

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Agtee with all that. The challenge cup may not be what it once was, but the context it exists in isn't the same either. All the proposals for change seem to create more probelms than they fix so I'd keep it as it is, but let's get a new long term slot for the final inked in. And no groups! 

I don't mind that approach, I just don't see it increasing cup crowds any time soon.

Barring the final, the crowds for the vast majority of Cup Games every year are disappointing. Even then the final doesn't get the same attention it used to.

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I'm a Spurs fan and love the new stadium, but I also agree with all that. Let's get back to Wembley asap, it's part of what makes the CC, whatever the crowd. Key is fixing a new window for the final long term. May is difficult with all the football. April's too early, so hopefully can get mid June before the summer concerts start. 

I think Spurs, like Elland Road, was picked for this year because they lost games in 2020.

[RigbyLuger]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

The final experience in particular is woeful compared to the old Wembley with next to nothing going on and next to no build up.

Horse racing has brought in new audiences with concerts and the like, trying that would be better than this year's "effort" of entertainment with a (failed Rugby League Personality) DJ and Lizzie Jones.

I don't know what the area around the stadium is like, but at least at Wembley and St. James' you can have a fanzone of sorts, even if we can obviously do it much better than currently.

We don't have the endless funds of the NFL, but go to a match at Wembley, and it feels like an all day event before you've taken your seat.

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

Horse racing has brought in new audiences with concerts and the like, trying that would be better than this year's "effort" of entertainment with a (failed Rugby League Personality) DJ and Lizzie Jones.

I don't know what the area around the stadium is like, but at least at Wembley and St. James' you can have a fanzone of sorts, even if we can obviously do it much better than currently.

We don't have the endless funds of the NFL, but go to a match at Wembley, and it feels like an all day event before you've taken your seat.

You go to a race meeting as a neutral , it's different 

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I'm a Spurs fan and love the new stadium, but I also agree with all that. Let's get back to Wembley asap, it's part of what makes the CC, whatever the crowd. Key is fixing a new window for the final long term. May is difficult with all the football. April's too early, so hopefully can get mid June before the summer concerts start. 

I agree we need a fixed date that works. I thought a couple of years ago that it was meant to be moving to June because that's what the BBC wanted?

I think mid June is perfect. It is much further away from the Grand Final than August was but a little later in the season than May which I feel suits better in the summer era. I think it's also better not to be in the summer holidays when it comes to schools, family holidays etc.

[Toby Chopra]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I don't mind that approach, I just don't see it increasing cup crowds any time soon.

Barring the final, the crowds for the vast majority of Cup Games every year are disappointing. Even then the final doesn't get the same attention it used to.

Agree, but in my view that decline, if that's the right word, isn't down to either the overall format, or the location of the final for instance. 

Much of its change in popularity is down to things we either can't fix (wider sporting, social, economic context) or would take sustained effort to promote (but would the CC be the best use of this effort?) 

Fiddling about with it won't fix any of that in my view and could even hasten the decline. 

(I do like the idea of drawing the SL clubs away in the last 16 though, yes a gimmick, but not a fundamental one, and could throw up a few nice ties at no real downside) 

[RP London]

17 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

There will be a novelty factor at spurs this year and the crowd will likely be good albeit probably lower than if it were at Wembley.

With all its flaws Wembley is still the best imo. It has the space, the transport, the infrastructure.

I went to Spurs last year for the NFL and even though it is a good looking stadium it fell well short of what I am used to at Wembley. Your 20 minute amble down iconic Wembley way becomes a 1hr walk from Seven Sisters through the busy streets of an awful part of London and getting back to Central London good luck. 

There were long lines for toilets, drinks and food that you just don't get at Wembley. I missed 15 minutes of the 2nd half queuing for drinks at Spurs which never happened at Wembley. 

It just isn't the well oiled machine that Wembley is.

Cant comment on Spurs as never been, hence going this year even though very neutral. Although I will be going to Tottenham Hale so as not to have to walk through from Seven Sisters. 

Funnily enough in 2019 i did have issues with getting served at Wembley and missed some of the game. Then they shut all the kiosks mid second half of the final even though the 1895 cup was still to be played afterwards, my plan of getting something to eat in between the games for me and my son were scuppered. I was sitting in the stand where the Eagles fans were placed so its not like they didnt know people would be hanging around afterwards. Been to the new Wembley a couple of times for Play off football and RL and have to say I wouldnt classify it as a "well oiled machine" and it has some issues but yes it is a great stadium and if we can make it work i would love it to stay there. 

[GUBRATS]

The RL group cup final 

Has a certain ring to it

[RigbyLuger]

5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

You go to a race meeting as a neutral , it's different 

True, just an idea of attracting people to an event rather than an RL match.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, RigbyLuger said:

True, just an idea of attracting people to an event rather than an RL match.

Most likely 90% of your attendee's are traveling back north , what time do you want them to hang around for ?

[Toby Chopra]

9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think Spurs, like Elland Road, was picked for this year because they lost games in 2020.

That's an interesting theory, I hadn't thought of that.

I'd put it down to RFL ineptitude, in that they decided to move away from August and agreed dates with the BBC before they locked up venues, and then realised that both Wembley and the northern soccer grounds would be unavailable in May. 

It would have been better in hindsight to do one more year on the old schedule and keep the final at Wembley for continuity, but I think the event will probably survive its trip across North London. 

[Mattrhino]

1 minute ago, RP London said:

Cant comment on Spurs as never been, hence going this year even though very neutral. Although I will be going to Tottenham Hale so as not to have to walk through from Seven Sisters. 

Funnily enough in 2019 i did have issues with getting served at Wembley and missed some of the game. Then they shut all the kiosks mid second half of the final even though the 1895 cup was still to be played afterwards, my plan of getting something to eat in between the games for me and my son were scuppered. I was sitting in the stand where the Eagles fans were placed so its not like they didnt know people would be hanging around afterwards. Been to the new Wembley a couple of times for Play off football and RL and have to say I wouldnt classify it as a "well oiled machine" and it has some issues but yes it is a great stadium and if we can make it work i would love it to stay there. 

Probably will be closed on final day was for NFL. 

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

Probably will be closed on final day was for NFL. 

Are you suggesting there isn't a train station AT White Hart Lane ? 

 

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Agree, but in my view that decline, if that's the right word, isn't down to either the overall format, or the location of the final for instance. 

Much of its change in popularity is down to things we either can't fix (wider sporting, social, economic context) or would take sustained effort to promote (but would the CC be the best use of this effort?) 

Fiddling about with it won't fix any of that in my view and could even hasten the decline. 

(I do like the idea of drawing the SL clubs away in the last 16 though, yes a gimmick, but not a fundamental one, and could throw up a few nice ties at no real downside) 

The cup was created at a time when knock out competitions were the most popular and best attended fixtures. That just isn't the case anymore and hasn't been for some time. Everyone likes winning a final, but a one off 6th round tie, even between two real rivals, just doesn't have anything like the appeal anymore.

Sometimes it is necessary to recognise when something has run its course, or at least needs refreshing to stay relevant. With all due respect, fixing the draw to ensure SL clubs are away at certain points seems a short term tacky solution imo. 

The cup isn't fundamentally unpopular, but buying 1 off tickets amongst the RL fanbase seems to be except for the biggest events. I don't think we as a sport are in a privileged enough position to stick our heads in the ground about this.

[Toby Chopra]

12 minutes ago, Mattrhino said:

Probably will be closed on final day was for NFL. 

Everything's running as normal on cup final day, thank goodness it's a Saturday. 

Not sure the OP will save much time going via Tottenham Hale though, 5 mins at best, plus one stop longer on tube. 

[Tommygilf]

15 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

That's an interesting theory, I hadn't thought of that.

I'd put it down to RFL ineptitude, in that they decided to move away from August and agreed dates with the BBC before they locked up venues, and then realised that both Wembley and the northern soccer grounds would be unavailable in May. 

It would have been better in hindsight to do one more year on the old schedule and keep the final at Wembley for continuity, but I think the event will probably survive its trip across North London. 

I think it was probably a mixture of convenience for all sides. The RFL won't have been tied to a specific date if forced to, and keeping open good links with Spurs and LUFC will have been a good alternative for "one year only" (remember the messaging when it was all announced?).