IMG Strategic Partnership Announced

[Martyn Sadler]

18 hours ago, Scubby said:

I haven't spoken to a single person who doesn't want to see WWR v St Helens

In 12 years' time, if WWR (or their successor club) aren't playing St Helens by then on a level playing field in a major stadium, then the appointment of IMG will probably have been a failure.

[Scubby]

Just now, Jughead said:

I think the quoted figures are some stretch, it certainly wasn’t that high in percentage terms. 

I may be wrong but I don’t think tickets were slashed, how we have done for other games since but I think there was a very good offer on Club Wembley seats (this may have been one of the first time anyone could buy tickets for that area) and I think a lot took that offer up, myself included. 

The only criticism was the order of the games that day but it was a good day. 

It was, I was there and in the concourses and outside the stadium. I was also on the train back up north to see my family afterwards and it wasn't packed with heartland fans at the station or on the train.

It was not heavily attended by northern fans I'm sure plenty will back me up here. Definitely a 2/3 to 1/3 split in favour of non-heartlands.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

You too are overlooking @Harry Stottle's points about the lack of awareness among his business associates up and down the country.  Yes RL internationals on the BBC are usually the biggest games of the year, but those matches did not cut through to the likes of his business associates one bit.

I don't disagree that all the matches on the BBC platforms this year are the best the game can do at present, but I don't foresee a great upsurge of interest resulting from them.

That was one of the relatively few times an RL International conformed to their idea of what International sport is: a big match in a big stadium watched by a big crowd, so one would think it made a good impression on them.  Yet it was still a comparative rarity, with nothing to follow it up, so nothing of lasting benefit was achieved.

You are being a bit silly on this with respect BP. 

The aim doesn't need to be for everyone in the country to know about RL. Just like many don't understand the different forms of cricket, or know anything about netball, or understand the make-up of the United Rugby Union Championship etc. 

We don't need to set impossible aims so that we can fail and then moan about it. Having a a strong international game in England will absolutely grow the game and awareness of it. That just isn't in doubt. 

[RP London]

3 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

You too are overlooking @Harry Stottle's points about the lack of awareness among his business associates up and down the country.  Yes RL internationals on the BBC are usually the biggest games of the year, but those matches did not cut through to the likes of his business associates one bit.

I don't disagree that all the matches on the BBC platforms this year are the best the game can do at present, but I don't foresee a great upsurge of interest resulting from them.

That was one of the relatively few times an RL International conformed to their idea of what International sport is: a big match in a big stadium watched by a big crowd, so one would think it made a good impression on them.  Yet it was still a comparative rarity, with nothing to follow it up, so nothing of lasting benefit was achieved.

Thats one mans experience.. I can give you the total opposite experience in 2 places I have worked at, including my present job and I was at a trade show in London the other week and overheard people talking about Super League (2 from Wales 1 from Norfolk) along with general chit chat I had with people on the stand and talking Rugby I would tell them my interest and that i played and we talked for a bit about the game, and they were from all over the place.. 

[Jughead]

Just now, Scubby said:

It was, I was there and in the concourses and outside the stadium. I was also on the train back up north to see my family afterwards and it wasn't packed with heartland fans at the station or on the train.

It was not heavily attended by northern fans I'm sure plenty will back me up here. Definitely a 2/3 to 1/3 split in favour of non-heartlands.

So was I. The number you quote was not that high. It certainly was unusual in the sense that it was definitely higher than previous years and other Wembley events like Cup Finals but there was no way a 2/3 split. 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, RP London said:

I don't think any one is craving RL per se. However, there are a lot of general sports fans out there and if you can tap into them there is real growth to be had and i say this as one of them. Show me any sport and I will watch it, even more so if I have "skin in the game" which is why internationals are so important IMHO.

If the sport is then good enough I will stick around for a bit, longer if you can keep me hooked. NFL did this in the 80s and then has brought me back in with me having Sky and watching Americas Game etc. I went to a LA Lakers game while over there last month and loved it (never been a massive Basketball fan but it was a chance to watch a big sport and a big team so wasn't going to pass it up). Since being home i have actively looked out scores in the play offs, and looked on You Tube for Lakers historic games to build knowledge, next season I will watch some games when on the telebox where I can and will possibly look to go to some of the BBL games as my daughter has started pestering as she was loving everything around the game in LA (may not be the same in Sheffield though!)

In the 80s with grandstand I used to get to see a game that i rarely got exposed to at a private school (then onto boarding school) in Sheffield (then on to Worcestershire). I then started playing it as I loved watching it and my grandparents on my Mum's side are from Warrington and now I am on a message board after playing until I was 34 and helping out at clubs in London and Sheffield, now trying to help with Juniors in Sheffield too. 

Its extremes but I am not as much of a freak as my wife would like to make out. There are plenty of people like me that are happy to watch sport and can then become a hooked fan. The market doesnt know it is there but it is, it just needs to be tapped into properly and thats more about what you do around the game and after the game than it is the 1 game they see. For example its why I believe mid season internationals are huge because there is a club game to tune in to next week.. with my Lakers example I could be lost as it was the last home game of the season and I will need to be actively looking for the start of next season, and my interest may wane between now and then.

The "market" doesnt exist in terms of being able to pinpoint but there are people out there who can be brought into the fold, but its going to take a lot of work and the 1 game to hook them is only the very very start of it.. but you still need it, and IMHO internationals are the easiest way

Let me be clearer. What audience (bearing in mind that SB is dismissing existing RL fans) are craving watching England stick 60 on Wales? 

I'm as big an advocate of international RL as anyone, you don't need to convince me, but there is no market for what is being pushed. 

[Scubby]

Just now, Jughead said:

So was I. The number you quote was not that high. It certainly was unusual in the sense that it was definitely higher than previous years and other Wembley events like Cup Finals but there was no way a 2/3 split. 

I'm happy with my assertion but we will agree to disagree.

The whole marketing strategy for that game was handed over to a London agency (I think it was Mark Evans company) who targeted Southern based attendees with the "Big Hit" tag line. I know because my company based in London was bombarded with stuff at the time - impressive it was too. The RFL have never undertaken an operation like that before or since and the result was potentially game changing. I say game changing because, of course, we ############## up

[Toby Chopra]

5 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

In 12 years' time, if WWR (or their successor club) aren't playing St Helens by then on a level playing field in a major stadium, then the appointment of IMG will probably have been a failure.

Depends if a stable Welsh club in Superleague is one of the official targets of the deal.

None of the strategic targets of SL/RFL seem to have been made public, as far as I can see. Without that it's all just our own preferences.

[redjonn]

12 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Yep. I assume Davidson is right and IMG is essentially selling its services in return a slice of future profits. 

you could be right, although key question is whom is funding any investment monies if they are just providing their expertise and services.

Mind you what if through their expertise and services decisions are made that cause the sport to "bomb" more,  do they take a hit too or just sit back and say well we tried and sorry we accelerated your decline.

Anyway one hopes the partnership is successful but can't comment without details. 

To have big change some pretty big and radical for the sport decisions would be needed. Otherwise we are just trying to maximise the current situation and outlook, although not a bad thing in itself but not some revolution for the sport here.

[RP London]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Let me be clearer. What audience (bearing in mind that SB is dismissing existing RL fans) are craving watching England stick 60 on Wales? 

I'm as big an advocate of international RL as anyone, you don't need to convince me, but there is no market for what is being pushed. 

I'd say the 60 on Wales is the start, its a bit like Italy in Union. You keep them in to build them up and I see Wales as that at the moment. Bring them into the fold and build them up using the international as the end game. Why do kids in Wales want to play to then be told "honestly there isnt really an international game for you, you'll end up playing for England (spits on the floor)". So you have them there and build the bottom up with the aim of improving the top (would Morgan Knowles have "become English" if he had the chances of a good international calendar with Wales??). 

The key to me is the French angle. I think there are a lot who just enjoy seeing England beat France, but not a walk over as then its just "not their sport". A non NRL player England v France could be a great match and great advert for the Sport. Have it as the last match of the 3 and then the next week make sure it is a strong set of Super League games and one of them is on Channel 4, Week after the Challenge Cup Final and you can start to build, thats 3 matches in consecutive weekends on FTA. If you like one you have another then another, especially if BBC have the international they could push the challenge cup final in 2 weeks on BBC etc.. 

It doesnt take much but its that "whats next" that always has to be thought of.

Its the same with any business the sell is the easy bit, its the retention that takes the work.. i can get people to buy our product but if its rubbish I wont get order 2 and 3 and its order 3 when i celebrate a new piece of business not order 1.

[RP London]

4 minutes ago, redjonn said:

you could be right, although key question is whom is funding any investment monies if they are just providing their expertise and services.

Mind you what if through their expertise and services decisions are made that cause the sport to "bomb" more,  do they take a hit too or just sit back and say well we tried and sorry we accelerated your decline.

Anyway one hopes the partnership is successful but can't comment without details. 

To have big change some pretty big and radical for the sport decisions would be needed. Otherwise we are just trying to maximise the current situation and outlook, although not a bad thing in itself but not some revolution for the sport here.

well they will have lost all the money they invested so they do definitely lose out.. also reputationally when they go to the next meeting for the next deal it doesnt look great and will cost them future business for sure. 

[Martyn Sadler]

5 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Depends if a stable Welsh club in Superleague is one of the official targets of the deal.

None of the strategic targets of SL/RFL seem to have been made public, as far as I can see. Without that it's all just our own preferences.

A key element of the deal is to create the conditions that will facilitate the development of clubs that might currently be viewed as small clubs to become much bigger.

That is obviously a long term project and it is one reason why the contract is for 12 years.

[redjonn]

Just now, RP London said:

well they will have lost all the money they invested so they do definitely lose out.. also reputationally when they go to the next meeting for the next deal it doesnt look great and will cost them future business for sure. 

wasn't aware they are investing, is the partnership using their services free of charge and they benefit on the commercial success if any.

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, RP London said:

well they will have lost all the money they invested so they do definitely lose out.. also reputationally when they go to the next meeting for the next deal it doesnt look great and will cost them future business for sure. 

Are they investing any money?

[RP London]

3 minutes ago, redjonn said:

wasn't aware they are investing, is the partnership using their services free of charge and they benefit on the commercial success if any.

I believe that in other examples of their "involvement" there is definitely a large element of them putting their money where their mouth is but that also has % related pay outs on success.. its why it is a "strategic partnership" (partnership i think is very important here) rather than the RFL paying for the services or "contracting". 

So the RFL should be getting some £ investment and not just ideas.. but that is a big should and it wouldn't shock me to find out they haven't done it this way.

Edited May 11, 2022 by RP London

[Dave T]

Just now, RP London said:

I'd say the 60 on Wales is the start, its a bit like Italy in Union. You keep them in to build them up and I see Wales as that at the moment. Bring them into the fold and build them up using the international as the end game. Why do kids in Wales want to play to then be told "honestly there isnt really an international game for you, you'll end up playing for England (spits on the floor)". So you have them there and build the bottom up with the aim of improving the top (would Morgan Knowles have "become English" if he had the chances of a good international calendar with Wales??). 

The key to me is the French angle. I think there are a lot who just enjoy seeing England beat France, but not a walk over as then its just "not their sport". A non NRL player England v France could be a great match and great advert for the Sport. Have it as the last match of the 3 and then the next week make sure it is a strong set of Super League games and one of them is on Channel 4, Week after the Challenge Cup Final and you can start to build, thats 3 matches in consecutive weekends on FTA. If you like one you have another then another, especially if BBC have the international they could push the challenge cup final in 2 weeks on BBC etc.. 

It doesnt take much but its that "whats next" that always has to be thought of.

Its the same with any business the sell is the easy bit, its the retention that takes the work.. i can get people to buy our product but if its rubbish I wont get order 2 and 3 and its order 3 when i celebrate a new piece of business not order 1.

I just don't see it. All of the above sounds great, but in reality it ends after three years when we have 6k in Leigh or 1800 in Wrexham, maybe 1k in Neath. 

The RU comparisons just don't work. The 6N teams were all strong enough and the tournament big enough to effectively carry the Italy team, and Italian RU big enough to be able to deliver large crowds and commercial value up front. 

Wales do play plenty of internationals, we should support them to play more, including against England at times, but I think we should be trying to get the likes of Tonga, PNG, Samoa etc. over as well as the big two and have them with games against the lower ranked Euro nations. 

But again, we are getting told here that it is a new market - which Welsh folk are wanting to see the Welsh RL team take a hiding versus England each year? Welsh fans can get their Rugby fix if they want it through RU, they can get tickets for 6N and Autumn internationals. There is no silver bullet for Welsh RL, continue with the WC's and their Euro games and push for more touring teams and develop at the grass roots. 

I'm not even being unnecessarily negative on this, as I say, I've been a supporter of both Wales and Scotland over the years, but I dont see a proposition including Wales that could be big in say, 5 years. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, RP London said:

I believe that in other examples of their "involvement" there is definitely a large element of them putting their money where their mouth is but that also has % related pay outs on success.. its why it is a "commercial agreement" rather than the RFL paying for the services or "contracting". 

So the RFL should be getting some £ investment and not just ideas.. but that is a big should and it wouldn't shock me to find out they haven't done it this way.

Both Davidson and Bower have stated no financial investment. Bowers article in the Guardian was linked to from IMG's twitter. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

How would you know england never bother to play them properly.  The only figures we have show those games against tier two nations if put in a tournament get good figures. 

England have played Wales a fair bit over the years - feel free to show evidence that suggests these have the potential to become big events. 

France has potential, absolutely, Wales are some way off. 

And none of this will be built by dismissing RL fans. 

 

[Scubby]

Just now, Dave T said:

England have played Wales a fair bit over the years - feel free to show evidence that suggests these have the potential to become big events. 

France has potential, absolutely, Wales are some way off. 

And none of this will be built by dismissing RL fans. 

 

Yep. France have shown that they can create regular five figure all pay crowds which would have been unthinkable even 20 years ago. That is our starting point.

There is also a trajectory of competitiveness which will increase with more full time French athletes (although this will take time) and a clear tangible target of a bridge to a French 2025 WC. It's not difficult to see that you farm where the soil is at least conducive too potential success.

[Martyn Sadler]

1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

NWC with an academy in south wales I think is more realistic. 

I hope that isn't the limit of our ambitions.

If it is, IMG will have a very easy ride indeed.

[Scubby]

Immediate ambitions should be all elite clubs spending the full salary cap and some SL squad players not being exploited on £15k contracts. It is a slight on our game.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

So it never grows because we never play them so they never improve so it never grows. .. see the problem?

No, it never grows because there aren't the roots, namely clubs, players and fans, for it to grow.

[Scubby]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

No, it never grows because there aren't the roots, namely clubs, players and fans, for it to grow.

So true

England invented T20 cricket and a bigger market said thank you and fulfilled its potential

England invented magic weekend and a bigger market said thank you and fulfilled its potential (150k+ fans this weekend)

Gimmicks only work if the will of the stakeholders and foundations are there. 

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

England have played Wales a fair bit over the years - feel free to show evidence that suggests these have the potential to become big events. 

France has potential, absolutely, Wales are some way off. 

And none of this will be built by dismissing RL fans. 

 

This is a genuine Q: when did Wales men last play a full international at all?

[Jughead]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

This is a genuine Q: when did Wales men last play a full international at all?

Wikipedia suggests 2018. Surely that cannot be right.