Maurice Lindsay passed away.

[nadera78]

When RL fans talk wistfully of the "good old days" of big international games and challenge cup finals played in front of packed stadiums, with detailed and dedicated TV and newspaper coverage, closely fought contests that gripped the imagination, and a sense that GB might might even win an Ashes series - they're actually looking back at Maurice Lindsay's time in charge of the RFL. Prior to his taking over those things didn't exist, or certainly not consistently, and they've since been allowed to drift away through neglect and disinterest. It was his enthusiasm, risk-taking, ability to get people on-board and desire to promote the sport of RL to every household in the country that saw those days come to fruition. He also recognised, as part of the above, the desirability of having a successful RL club in our capital city and he tried hard to bring that about. He never got the credit he deserved for his work.

RIP

[fieldofclothofgold]

Now I've given my RIP to Mr Lindsay and reflected to think about his achievements.  Under his watch Wigan RLFC was being mentioned alongside the top association football clubs at the time and some of those players became household names . 

[Damien]

A good article from the NRL and some very respectful comments. His achievements were many and the sheer respect the Aussies had speaks volumes. During this time the game in this country was every bit the equal of the game in Australia:

After rejuvenating the World Club Challenge concept when he invited Ken Arthurson's Manly to England for a winner takes all clash with Wigan in 1987, Lindsay became Great Britain team manager and later IRL chairman.

He was awarded life membership of the IRL for his services to the game. 

IRL chairman Troy Grant said: “Maurice was a true rugby league pioneer and internationalist. He will be sadly missed. We send our sympathy to his family and friends".

After helping to save Wigan from relegation in 1980, Lindsay oversaw an era of dominance to rival the great St George team of 1956-1966 as the club won eight League Championships between 1987-1996 and nine Challenge Cup finals.

Wigan also beat Manly (1987), Penrith (1991) and Brisbane (1994) in the World Club Challenge.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2022/05/18/visionary-and-innovator-tributes-flow-for-maurice-lindsay/

[Szymala]

Wigan v Manly, Central Park, October 1987. What an occasion.

Anyone who was in that 37,000 crowd will never forget it. 

And it was all down to Maurice Lindsay's determination and persuasive tongue. Arko couldn't say no.

It took rugby league to a new level with Manly coming over here just days after winning their own grand final - just as the World Club Challenge was meant to be.

The game was so very special in his peak era, between 1985-1995. 

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, nadera78 said:

When RL fans talk wistfully of the "good old days" of big international games and challenge cup finals played in front of packed stadiums, with detailed and dedicated TV and newspaper coverage, closely fought contests that gripped the imagination, and a sense that GB might might even win an Ashes series - they're actually looking back at Maurice Lindsay's time in charge of the RFL. Prior to his taking over those things didn't exist, or certainly not consistently, and they've since been allowed to drift away through neglect and disinterest. It was his enthusiasm, risk-taking, ability to get people on-board and desire to promote the sport of RL to every household in the country that saw those days come to fruition. He also recognised, as part of the above, the desirability of having a successful RL club in our capital city and he tried hard to bring that about. He never got the credit he deserved for his work.

RIP

Is that true. 

We used to get full houses at Wembley for. The Cup well before Lindsay was involved. We also got 50k at Old Trafford in 1986 and that series saw us play at Old Trafford and Elland Road. 

We played at Wembley in 1990 before he was RFL CEO iirc. 

This isn't to say he didn't do some good things, but I'm not sure he gets the credit for everything. 

[Damien]

34 minutes ago, Szymala said:

Wigan v Manly, Central Park, October 1987. What an occasion.

Anyone who was in that 37,000 crowd will never forget it. 

And it was all down to Maurice Lindsay's determination and persuasive tongue. Arko couldn't say no.

It took rugby league to a new level with Manly coming over here just days after winning their own grand final - just as the World Club Challenge was meant to be.

The game was so very special in his peak era, between 1985-1995. 

An epic night. Winner takes all too. The World Club Challenge was born due to the success of that night.

[Dave T]

24 minutes ago, Damien said:

An epic night. Winner takes all too. The World Club Challenge was born due to the success of that night.

The WCC is the biggest wasted opportunity in our sport imho (we are at least still doing internationals even if not brilliantly).

Tge 1997 version may have been flawed, but even that showed potential. The ability to allow these opportunities to pass us by is typically RL. 

[Wigan Riversider]

24 minutes ago, Damien said:

An epic night. Winner takes all too. The World Club Challenge was born due to the success of that night.

Wonderful that Wigan staged the match inspite of the RL at Chapeltown Road Leeds who did not support the event.

[nadera78]

50 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Is that true. 

We used to get full houses at Wembley for. The Cup well before Lindsay was involved. We also got 50k at Old Trafford in 1986 and that series saw us play at Old Trafford and Elland Road. 

We played at Wembley in 1990 before he was RFL CEO iirc. 

This isn't to say he didn't do some good things, but I'm not sure he gets the credit for everything. 

The Cup is slightly different, granted, given its history although I'm pretty sure it was mainly northerners making the trip down and very few locals going to watch. I'd say the final itself, along with GB games at Wembley, really took off during his tenure - by which I mean it was a much bigger deal in London itself. The games were well promoted, they had the feel of a big day that Londoners wanted to be a part of. I started watching on TV around that time, and went to those Wembley games without knowing there was a small semi-pro team playing in London and had been for over a decade at that point. Lindsay was a very prominent face of the game in those days - alongside some players who were genuine household names. That's why I say that the "golden era" RL fans often hark back to centres around that period of time.

[Scubby]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Is that true. 

We used to get full houses at Wembley for. The Cup well before Lindsay was involved. We also got 50k at Old Trafford in 1986 and that series saw us play at Old Trafford and Elland Road. 

We played at Wembley in 1990 before he was RFL CEO iirc. 

This isn't to say he didn't do some good things, but I'm not sure he gets the credit for everything. 

David Howes was the instigator of the move to Old Trafford in 1986 for GB v Aus. He was on a bit of a sole mission and the boys at RFL HQ took a lot of persuading. I remember an interview with him where he said ticket sales weren't high and he was hoping for a big walk up on the day. That walk up more than doubled the crowd to 50k and I believe ignited the idea of the Premiership final going there in 1987. 

I don't know who had the idea of the giant sumo wrestlers as half time entertainment but it was a lot more than we have today!

Edited May 18, 2022 by Scubby

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, Scubby said:

David Howes was the instigator of the move to Old Trafford in 1986 for GB v Aus. He was on a bit of a sole mission and the boys at RFL HQ took a lot of persuading. I remember an interview with him where he said ticket sales weren't high and he was hoping for a big walk up on the day. That walk up more than doubled the crowd to 50k and I believe ignited the idea of the Premiership final going there in 1987. 

I don't know who had the idea of the giant sumo wrestlers as half time entertainment but it was a lot more than we have today!

Yup - I think this has the makings of a decent thread to be honest rather than the Lindsay passing thread.

But as somebody hugely into the game during these years, they certainly didn't feel like any kind of Golden era and in fact many changes had to be made because the game was on its knees.

[Dave T]

25 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

The Cup is slightly different, granted, given its history although I'm pretty sure it was mainly northerners making the trip down and very few locals going to watch. I'd say the final itself, along with GB games at Wembley, really took off during his tenure - by which I mean it was a much bigger deal in London itself. The games were well promoted, they had the feel of a big day that Londoners wanted to be a part of. I started watching on TV around that time, and went to those Wembley games without knowing there was a small semi-pro team playing in London and had been for over a decade at that point. Lindsay was a very prominent face of the game in those days - alongside some players who were genuine household names. That's why I say that the "golden era" RL fans often hark back to centres around that period of time.

I think as time passes we tend to recall the positive memories rather than the challenges and controversies. As below - I think this has the makings of a decent thread, but imho it was the same as ever watching RL a decade of some highs and many lows!

[Damien]

55 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The WCC is the biggest wasted opportunity in our sport imho (we are at least still doing internationals even if not brilliantly).

Tge 1997 version may have been flawed, but even that showed potential. The ability to allow these opportunities to pass us by is typically RL. 

I agree. I can really think of 3 epic games/nights which for me is what the WCC should be, Wigan v Manly, Widnes v Canberra at Old Trafford and Brisbane v Wigan in Brisbane are all the standouts for me. Huge games, big crowds and both teams gong hell for leather. I know my team have been involved in a fair few more but too many of the others fall short of what the event should be, whether that is location, time of year, whether the Aussies can be bothered etc. Even when you win and the Aussies dont really seem up for it it devalues it somewhat for me.

[Wigan Riversider]

39 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think as time passes we tend to recall the positive memories rather than the challenges and controversies. As below - I think this has the makings of a decent thread, but imho it was the same as ever watching RL a decade of some highs and many lows!

For me the lows were that GB and England could not beat Australia in any game that mattered ie an Ashes decider or a world cup final.

[Dave T]

13 minutes ago, Damien said:

I agree. I can really think of 3 epic games/nights which for me is what the WCC should be, Wigan v Manly, Widnes v Canberra at Old Trafford and Brisbane v Wigan in Brisbane are all the standouts for me. Huge games, big crowds and both teams gong hell for leather. I know my team have been involved in a fair few more but too many of the others fall short of what the event should be, whether that is location, time of year, whether the Aussies can be bothered etc. Even when you win and the Aussies dont really seem up for it it devalues it somewhat for me.

The Leeds games at Elland Road were brilliant too. 

I enjoyed the couple of World Series games that Wire played in. 

For me, creating a new asset is a way of driving real investment into the game, and this is a gap. I do think the Aussies are too far gone. 

[Szymala]

3 hours ago, Wigan Riversider said:

For me the lows were that GB and England could not beat Australia in any game that mattered ie an Ashes decider or a world cup final.

Well, no one can say that Maurice Lindsay and Wigan weren't doing all they could to change that situation.

The 1992 Lions included 13 Wigan players in the squad and it was an entire Wigan pack that destroyed Australia 33-10 in Melbourne: Kelvin Skerrett, Martin Dermott, Andy Platt, Denis Betts, Billy McGinty, Phil Clarke. 

Regarding Wembley, it was Wigan's 8-year dominance that helped kill the crowds. Almost every working man's club etc in the north took a trip down for the day/weekend but they drifted away as the outcome was entirely predictable. Another negative was the fact that Wigan's unending success had to be paid for - and the price was iconic Central Park.

[Wigan Riversider]

30 minutes ago, Szymala said:

Well, no one can say that Maurice Lindsay and Wigan weren't doing all they could to change that situation.

The 1992 Lions included 13 Wigan players in the squad and it was an entire Wigan pack that destroyed Australia 33-10 in Melbourne: Kelvin Skerrett, Martin Dermott, Andy Platt, Denis Betts, Billy McGinty, Phil Clarke. 

Regarding Wembley, it was Wigan's 8-year dominance that helped kill the crowds. Almost every working man's club etc in the north took a trip down for the day/weekend but they drifted away as the outcome was entirely predictable. Another negative was the fact that Wigan's unending success had to be paid for - and the price was iconic Central Park.

Can't disagree at all with your post.

Remember that the Boston Stand 1991 went way over budget and contributed to the club facing bankruptcy.

Whelan destabilising things didn't help either.

[Damien]

50 minutes ago, Szymala said:

Regarding Wembley, it was Wigan's 8-year dominance that helped kill the crowds. Almost every working man's club etc in the north took a trip down for the day/weekend but they drifted away as the outcome was entirely predictable. Another negative was the fact that Wigan's unending success had to be paid for - and the price was iconic Central Park.

That's just not true. Throughout Wigan's run the Challenge Cup final was always sold out or pretty damn close to it. The couple of years after that run also were. What did affect crowds was Sheffield getting there and then London which was then followed by the Challenge Cup going on the road and Wembley getting demolished.

[Szymala]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

That's just not true. Throughout Wigan's run the Challenge Cup final was always sold out or pretty damn close to it. The couple of years after that run also were. What did affect crowds was Sheffield getting there and then London which was then followed by the Challenge Cup going on the road and Wembley getting demolished.

I can only speak from experience and that is what I saw. Our annual Wembley trip reduced in numbers year on year and it wasn't the only one. The usual line was: 'I may as well go to Spain for a weekend rather than watch a one horse race'. It certainly induced an apathy in an awful lot of fans.

Almost 98,000 saw Wigan win the classic 1985 final against Hull (novelty factor plus Kenny/Sterling and up 17k from Wigan's visit the previous year). There were 94,000 for the start of Wigan's endless run in 1988 (it never went higher than that) and it was down to 78k for the 8th win in a row in 1995.

And I'd suggest the clear evidence was there in 1998 when the attendance dropped to 60,000 from 78,000 at the 1997 final. Yes, Sheffield took few fans but the fact was that the neutrals had drifted away at the prospect of Wigan winning yet again. 

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Szymala

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Szymala said:

I can only speak from experience and that is what I saw. Our annual Wembley trip reduced in numbers year on year and it wasn't the only one. The usual line was: 'I may as well go to Spain for a weekend rather than watch a one horse race'. It certainly induced an apathy in an awful lot of fans.

Almost 98,000 saw Wigan win the classic 1985 final against Hull (novelty factor plus Kenny/Sterling and up 17k from Wigan's visit the previous year). There were 94,000 for the start of Wigan's endless run in 1988 (it never went higher than that) and it was down to 78k for the 8th win in a row in 1995 (against big supporting Leeds).

And I'd suggest the clear evidence was there in 1998 when the attendance dropped to 60,000 from 78,000 at the 1997 final. Yes, Sheffield took few fans but the fact was that the neutrals had drifted away at the prospect of Wigan winning yet again. 

 

You do know that 78k was the capacity? 

[Damien]

Just now, Szymala said:

I can only speak from experience and that is what I saw. Our annual Wembley trip reduced in numbers year on year and it wasn't the only one. The usual line was: 'I may as well go to Spain for a weekend rather than watch a one horse race'. It certainly induced an apathy in an awful lot of fans.

Almost 98,000 saw Wigan win the classic 1985 final against Hull (novelty factor plus Kenny/Sterling and up 17k from Wigan's visit the previous year). There were 94,000 for the start of Wigan's endless run in 1988 (it never went higher than that) and it was down to 78k for the 8th win in a row in 1995 (against big supporting Leeds).

And I'd suggest the clear evidence was there in 1998 when the attendance dropped to 60,000 from 78,000 at the 1997 final. Yes, Sheffield took few fans but the fact was that the neutrals had drifted away at the prospect of Wigan winning yet again. 

 

That's very disingenuous. It went to from 94,273 at the start of Wigan's run in 1988 to 78,000 in 1989 when Wembley went all seater. Wigan's last game at Wembley was 78,550. Pretty much all the finals were sold out or practically sold out. The two finals Saints won after Wigan's run was 75,994 and 78,022, again pretty much sellouts.

[Padge]

4 hours ago, Szymala said:

Well, no one can say that Maurice Lindsay and Wigan weren't doing all they could to change that situation.

The 1992 Lions included 13 Wigan players in the squad and it was an entire Wigan pack that destroyed Australia 33-10 in Melbourne: Kelvin Skerrett, Martin Dermott, Andy Platt, Denis Betts, Billy McGinty, Phil Clarke. 

Regarding Wembley, it was Wigan's 8-year dominance that helped kill the crowds. Almost every working man's club etc in the north took a trip down for the day/weekend but they drifted away as the outcome was entirely predictable. Another negative was the fact that Wigan's unending success had to be paid for - and the price was iconic Central Park.

That is simply not true. But that is for another time and place.

[Scubby]

4 hours ago, Damien said:

That's just not true. Throughout Wigan's run the Challenge Cup final was always sold out or pretty damn close to it. The couple of years after that run also were. What did affect crowds was Sheffield getting there and then London which was then followed by the Challenge Cup going on the road and Wembley getting demolished.

73,242 for Leeds v London only 2k less than Wigan v Saints 1991

[Padge]

1 hour ago, Scubby said:

73,242 for Leeds v London only 2k less than Wigan v Saints 1991

In 1991 wasn't the capacity reduced for some redevelopment work at Wembley.

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, Padge said:

In 1991 wasn't the capacity reduced for some redevelopment work at Wembley.

Maybe I'm don't remember but, either way, London at Wembley just 4k or so from capacity isn't too shabby.