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Let's Do The RFL's Job For Them - Challenge Cup 2023


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The NFL obviously has an infinitely bigger budget than we, but going to Wembley for a game was an all-day event, and that's before the game kicked-off. Lots to do outside the ground, autograph sessions with past players, photos with mascots, have a go a kicking, sponsors stalls and a giant store selling gear from every club, not just those playing and not all that is at a massive cost.

Certainly better than being shouted at from a stage.

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11 hours ago, Scubby said:

I'll go first - 2023 return to Wembley 90,000 seats to fill

Challenge Cup - Oldest Rugby Competition in the World

Theme - 1990s

  • Finalists play in 1990s heritage strip
  • DJ playing 1990s music (maybe even Pat Sharp lol)
  • Pre match show (light ££) - 1990s pop acts like Heather Small, Chesney Hawkes, Right Said Fred signing one or two of their bangers.
  • Parade of 1990 legends - vehicles around the stadium - Offiah, Davies, Schofield, Aston, Hanley, Goulding, Newlove, Crooks, Farrell, Robinson, Morley, Paul, Edwards etc.
  • Extend half time to 25 minutes
  • Half-time show (big investment ££) - 1990s act like Take That or Boyzone or Liam Gallagher or Erasure (15 mins)
  • 1990s themed entertainment/games/concessions outside

Sell the hell out of it to neutrals as a celebration event of our great game with a recognisable theme. Announce this #### early!

30,000 more tickets than 2022 is worth £1.2m to £1.6m

Aim of the day is to get people there early, enjoying themselves and something for everyone. For the purists, the rugby will always provide the entertainment on the pitch. We have history, we have culture - we should use it! But the key is we have to invest to stop the decline and make people want to come. Could do 2000s in 2024.

I'm sure there are many ways to skin a cat. Anyone got other ideas?

Good effort

I cant imagine its really that difficult to be in charge of the RFL

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11 hours ago, Scubby said:

I'll go first - 2023 return to Wembley 90,000 seats to fill

Challenge Cup - Oldest Rugby Competition in the World

Theme - 1990s

  • Finalists play in 1990s heritage strip
  • DJ playing 1990s music (maybe even Pat Sharp lol)
  • Pre match show (light ££) - 1990s pop acts like Heather Small, Chesney Hawkes, Right Said Fred signing one or two of their bangers.
  • Parade of 1990 legends - vehicles around the stadium - Offiah, Davies, Schofield, Aston, Hanley, Goulding, Newlove, Crooks, Farrell, Robinson, Morley, Paul, Edwards etc.
  • Extend half time to 25 minutes
  • Half-time show (big investment ££) - 1990s act like Take That or Boyzone or Liam Gallagher or Erasure (15 mins)
  • 1990s themed entertainment/games/concessions outside

Sell the hell out of it to neutrals as a celebration event of our great game with a recognisable theme. Announce this #### early!

30,000 more tickets than 2022 is worth £1.2m to £1.6m

Aim of the day is to get people there early, enjoying themselves and something for everyone. For the purists, the rugby will always provide the entertainment on the pitch. We have history, we have culture - we should use it! But the key is we have to invest to stop the decline and make people want to come. Could do 2000s in 2024.

I'm sure there are many ways to skin a cat. Anyone got other ideas?

I really like this idea. You could have a different theme every year. Perhaps we should market the Challenge Cup as a purely nostalgic comp - a reminder of when it used to be the main prize in the game. Those days are never going to return but we can have some fun with it 

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3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Like it. A festival vibe. In summer. At a London music venue. This stuff sells. 

Now, is there a big cheese in the music industry connected with rugby league? 🤔

Interestingly, he's staging a large music festival on Cup Final weekend in Warrington. 

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Just now, Toby Chopra said:

I agree, the point I'm making is that we need to target people exactly like your mum and sister and see what would entice them back. They know it's a big sporting event for RL - the match is and always will be the centrepiece - but the game on its own isn't enough to tempt them down. What would be? Your idea may well be it. 

But it's incentivising the "lapsed fans" to come back, or latent fans in the south to come along, that will work. Trying to sell it as some sort of music festival (with a RL game alongside) to non-RL fans won't. 

The aim for our sport now is to grow the number of soft, latent fans through FTA exposure and better social media comms, and THEN target that group to come along to big matches. 

I thought of the idea in two minutes - it was just a starter. The reason it is a good example is that it is a theme with a constant thread to it - so people get a feel for the event and what they are getting.

What is the Challenge Cup this year?...........Oh it is a 1990s theme..........With like 1990s music and stuff.........Yeah Take That and a 1990s legends parade

What is the Challenge Cup this year?..... Oh it's a celebration of culture.......... What like diversity in RL and stuff....... Yeah...... they got music............ yeah they've got......

It doesn't matter what the theme is - it is the intent and drive to make it a must see event. Everyone knows the 80 minutes itself will deliver and the fans of those finalists and die hard RL fans will be there regardless. Then we have the other 40,000 seats because Wembley aint getting any smaller! That is where you take into sports fans who love events first and the game is a bonus.

 

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4 minutes ago, Tides Of History said:

I really like this idea. You could have a different theme every year. Perhaps we should market the Challenge Cup as a purely nostalgic comp - a reminder of when it used to be the main prize in the game. Those days are never going to return but we can have some fun with it 

I can't tell if this is a joke or not.

I hope it's a joke.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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5 minutes ago, Tides Of History said:

I really like this idea. You could have a different theme every year. Perhaps we should market the Challenge Cup as a purely nostalgic comp - a reminder of when it used to be the main prize in the game. Those days are never going to return but we can have some fun with it 

Yes, it may not be the oldest existing Rugby cup competition in the world but I think it is. If it is you can build a theme around it - the highlights real and stories of this competition are endless. But the fan base is set in their ways, dwindling and getting old. You have to hang it around a theme - whatever that is.

Why play it in London at all if you are not going to make it a London event? Sometimes t's like we are imposters renting out a caravan for the weekend on farm we feel we don't belong.

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Personally, I think one of the main problems with a Wembley weekend is getting down there and back again.

The cost of trains is hideously expensive. You might be fortunate to get tickets a few quid cheaper if you book them several weeks in advance, but that's only really an advantage if you're a neutral.  Even then, for the last six or seven years at least, there's always been work on the West Coast Main Line or Cross Rail making the return home horrendous, complex and time consuming.

You could have the best value, most exciting, must-see sporting event in the calendar but if you can't get home afterwards it puts people off.

Keep your million pound entertainment budgets and spend it on subsidising travel costs in some way..

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What the theme is isn't too important, the point is making a real effort so it looks like an event that you want to go to, an event that you want to take others to. 

There are so many novelty forms of entertainment around now that it is possible to cater for wide populations and make a great day out. And you have to stick with it, you need to know that every year will be fun. 

Kids zones with inflatables, mascots, entertainers. Alcohol zones with quality products and setting (not carlsberg in a car park). Music, craft fairs, entertainment, competitions it's all good. 

And get it all to link in and build up to a half time show in the bowl. Scubby has touched on 90s, retro is cool at the moment, there are loads of festive all the time. But so is indie, whatever. We can go modern, with DJs, female artists (have we ever had female entertainment at the GF for example?). 

In terms of target markets, it needn't be that narrow. The number of people who have ever watched a game of RL is millions in this country. 

Of course existing customers are your low hanging fruit, then RL passives, then non-RL sport fans, then general event attenders. The population is huge, we already have partnerships with ticket aster etc to reach many of these. 

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4 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Why play it in London at all if you are not going to make it a London event? Sometimes t's like we are imposters renting out a caravan for the weekend on farm we feel we don't belong.

I think it's Wembley, as much as London that's the attraction these days. It's 50% bigger than every football stadium in the country, apart from OT, and when close to full it's a great experience. Also, the transformation of the area around the stadium shouldn't be dismissed, it's no longer an industrial estate with loads of dark corners and pillars and fences, it's now one of London's biggest leisure zones, with hotels, restaurants, shops, all set in a much opened up and landscaped campus. 

Plus of course Wembley is "ours".  

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6 minutes ago, Dave W said:

Personally, I think one of the main problems with a Wembley weekend is getting down there and back again.

The cost of trains is hideously expensive. You might be fortunate to get tickets a few quid cheaper if you book them several weeks in advance, but that's only really an advantage if you're a neutral.  Even then, for the last six or seven years at least, there's always been work on the West Coast Main Line or Cross Rail making the return home horrendous, complex and time consuming.

You could have the best value, most exciting, must-see sporting event in the calendar but if you can't get home afterwards it puts people off.

Keep your million pound entertainment budgets and spend it on subsidising travel costs in some way..

I think there is something in making it as easy for customers to travel for as reasonable as possible, probably by offering it at cost, but in reality, we are passed that being the solution, it can only be part of it, along with many other things suggested. 

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8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What the theme is isn't too important, the point is making a real effort so it looks like an event that you want to go to, an event that you want to take others to. 

There are so many novelty forms of entertainment around now that it is possible to cater for wide populations and make a great day out. And you have to stick with it, you need to know that every year will be fun. 

Kids zones with inflatables, mascots, entertainers. Alcohol zones with quality products and setting (not carlsberg in a car park). Music, craft fairs, entertainment, competitions it's all good. 

And get it all to link in and build up to a half time show in the bowl. Scubby has touched on 90s, retro is cool at the moment, there are loads of festive all the time. But so is indie, whatever. We can go modern, with DJs, female artists (have we ever had female entertainment at the GF for example?). 

In terms of target markets, it needn't be that narrow. The number of people who have ever watched a game of RL is millions in this country. 

Of course existing customers are your low hanging fruit, then RL passives, then non-RL sport fans, then general event attenders. The population is huge, we already have partnerships with ticket aster etc to reach many of these. 

Well put and exactly what I was getting at. The bar is so low at the moment it is scary. Alex Simmons is probably an example of the kind of thinking right now.

I am literally getting bombarded with tracking ads for the Hundred, Blast, Twickenham events etc. here in London. I was on the RFL ticket site yesterday, put two tickets in a basket and it didn't even follow me around then. Go on RFL socials and sites every day. The budget is miniscule and they are now relying on 5-10k easy ticket sales from Leigh-Fev fans regardless of whether the event is enhanced or damaged.

I can't think of anything more damaging than buses full of passionate RL fans going back up the motorway while the cup final is on (having actually been sat in the stadium). When you hit rock bottom the only way is up (that's 80s not 90s)

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Just now, Scubby said:

Well put and exactly what I was getting at. The bar is so low at the moment it is scary. Alex Simmons is probably an example of the kind of thinking right now.

I am literally getting bombarded with tracking ads for the Hundred, Blast, Twickenham events etc. here in London. I was on the RFL ticket site yesterday, put two tickets in a basket and it didn't even follow me around then. Go on RFL socials and sites every day. The budget is miniscule and they are now relying on 5-10k easy ticket sales from Leigh-Fev fans regardless of whether the event is enhanced or damaged.

I can't think of anything more damaging than bus full of passionate RL fans going up the motorway while the cup final is on (having actually been sat in the stadium). When you hit rock bottom the only way is up (that's 80s not 90s)

The RFL are clearly just using their owned media to promote this, which confirms they are targeting existing customers only. 

I would say, I'm getting a lot of FB posts about the cup final - with some lovely creative I would add, some very nice animations and stories etc. but I expect I am seeing that because I heavily engage with RL media. 

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7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think there is something in making it as easy for customers to travel for as reasonable as possible, probably by offering it at cost, but in reality, we are passed that being the solution, it can only be part of it, along with many other things suggested. 

Agree. It needs to be both somehow: Make people want to go + enable them to do so

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8 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I think it's Wembley, as much as London that's the attraction these days. It's 50% bigger than every football stadium in the country, apart from OT, and when close to full it's a great experience. Also, the transformation of the area around the stadium shouldn't be dismissed, it's no longer an industrial estate with loads of dark corners and pillars and fences, it's now one of London's biggest leisure zones, with hotels, restaurants, shops, all set in a much opened up and landscaped campus. 

Plus of course Wembley is "ours".  

Agree the site is huge, you could have wheelchair RL demonstrations, a whole women's and girls RL section, entertainment and offerings. That would actually get more people to Wembley at 12.30 than will be in the stadium for the 1895 cup final next weekend.

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2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The RFL are clearly just using their owned media to promote this, which confirms they are targeting existing customers only. 

I would say, I'm getting a lot of FB posts about the cup final - with some lovely creative I would add, some very nice animations and stories etc. but I expect I am seeing that because I heavily engage with RL media. 

But it confirms what I said about relatively few ticket sales come in the final week before the cup final because those northerners that are going need to plan and will have bought tickets in time to do that. Wigan and Hudds ticket offices will be down to a trickle now as will Fev and Leigh's. Few are going to impulsively buy £100 of tickets and travel all the way to London on a whim a few days out. All that energy in the closing days must be around those sporting event goers within easy commuting distance who are at a loose end the following weekend. It's just logic.

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5 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Agree the site is huge, you could have wheelchair RL demonstrations, a whole women's and girls RL section, entertainment and offerings. That would actually get more people to Wembley at 12.30 than will be in the stadium for the 1895 cup final next weekend.

Or even just have a leisurely lunch in one of the dozen modern chain restaurants that are on the stadium's doorstep and then stroll into the stadium without the rush. When I took my kids to see KSI at the arena recently we had a nice Nandos and then walked in. Now, this isn't something you can necessarily promote to sell tickets with, but once people know that the Wembley experience is much improved these days, and family friendly, they're more likely to attend further events there like the CCF.  

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I think one point to add that can't be understated here is that if we get this kind of thing right, we can drive huge benefits for the game overall. 

Crowds are in decline at the Final - whilst there are loads of reasons, you can't get away from the fact that it is quite a clear indicator that as an event it is just not good enough to make people want to go every year, maybe dragging along a few more people next time.

 

One of the softer KPI's really needs to be around enjoyment of the event. People need to come away buzzing, so that they are actively looking for the next major RL event, whether that is an international, the Grand Final, Magic, whatever - get this right and these things cross-subsidise each other, a great event at Wembley becomes part of the marketing for internationals, which market the Grand Final etc. We can't just look at these things as standalone. 

I think when we have a good international year we have some great assets. For me, getting lively large crowds of people having fun so that they then become evangelical about the events is priority number 1.

If I look at the sports I've attended as events, RL is probably some way down the list. Some of the Magic's reached a really good level, now they have become all put booze sessions I've lost interest (even though I enjoy a session as much as anyone). 

Horse racing, F1, cricket, RU, Athletics have all delivered better events/products, even though as my sport RL would be my first choice by some way. 

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8 minutes ago, Scubby said:

But it confirms what I said about relatively few ticket sales come in the final week before the cup final because those northerners that are going need to plan and will have bought tickets in time to do that. Wigan and Hudds ticket offices will be down to a trickle now as will Fev and Leigh's. Few are going to impulsively buy £100 of tickets and travel all the way to London on a whim a few days out. All that energy in the closing days must be around those sporting event goers within easy commuting distance who are at a loose end the following weekend. It's just logic.

I'll be honest, I'm trying to stay positive here, my hope is that they aren't switching on many of these channels because sales are clicking along nicely. 

I suspect I will be disappointed. 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I think one point to add that can't be understated here is that if we get this kind of thing right, we can drive huge benefits for the game overall. 

Crowds are in decline at the Final - whilst there are loads of reasons, you can't get away from the fact that it is quite a clear indicator that as an event it is just not good enough to make people want to go every year, maybe dragging along a few more people next time.

 

One of the softer KPI's really needs to be around enjoyment of the event. People need to come away buzzing, so that they are actively looking for the next major RL event, whether that is an international, the Grand Final, Magic, whatever - get this right and these things cross-subsidise each other, a great event at Wembley becomes part of the marketing for internationals, which market the Grand Final etc. We can't just look at these things as standalone. 

I think when we have a good international year we have some great assets. For me, getting lively large crowds of people having fun so that they then become evangelical about the events is priority number 1.

If I look at the sports I've attended as events, RL is probably some way down the list. Some of the Magic's reached a really good level, now they have become all put booze sessions I've lost interest (even though I enjoy a session as much as anyone). 

Horse racing, F1, cricket, RU, Athletics have all delivered better events/products, even though as my sport RL would be my first choice by some way. 

Sometimes it's little things - like really little.

I took Tiny Ginger to the 2017 Women's Cricket World Cup final at Lord's. Now, as you might imagine, there were a lot of the standard things and it was all mostly done really well. And it helped that it was tremendous match that England won.

As we left, everyone who wanted one, but especially those with kids, was given a branded plastic set of bat, ball and stumps to take home. We'd not asked for it, paid for it or known we were getting but everyone had the chance to get one.

That simple thing kept his interest going in cricket - we were down the park playing the next day - and was part of the process (along with other nudges) that means that we go to at least one day of cricket together every year. Even though he's too cool to do anything else with me, we do that.

Is it beyond the reach of the RFL to make sure that folk can get a mini rugby ball as they're leaving (other options available, it's just the quickest like for like transfer) - or just something unexpected but that adds to the pleasure and positive associations of the day whatever the score or quality of the contest.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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11 hours ago, Scubby said:

I'll go first - 2023 return to Wembley 90,000 seats to fill

Challenge Cup - Oldest Rugby Competition in the World

Theme - 1990s

  • Finalists play in 1990s heritage strip
  • DJ playing 1990s music (maybe even Pat Sharp lol)
  • Pre match show (light ££) - 1990s pop acts like Heather Small, Chesney Hawkes, Right Said Fred signing one or two of their bangers.
  • Parade of 1990 legends - vehicles around the stadium - Offiah, Davies, Schofield, Aston, Hanley, Goulding, Newlove, Crooks, Farrell, Robinson, Morley, Paul, Edwards etc.
  • Extend half time to 25 minutes
  • Half-time show (big investment ££) - 1990s act like Take That or Boyzone or Liam Gallagher or Erasure (15 mins)
  • 1990s themed entertainment/games/concessions outside

Sell the hell out of it to neutrals as a celebration event of our great game with a recognisable theme. Announce this #### early!

30,000 more tickets than 2022 is worth £1.2m to £1.6m

Aim of the day is to get people there early, enjoying themselves and something for everyone. For the purists, the rugby will always provide the entertainment on the pitch. We have history, we have culture - we should use it! But the key is we have to invest to stop the decline and make people want to come. Could do 2000s in 2024.

I'm sure there are many ways to skin a cat. Anyone got other ideas?

I love the enthusiasm but this is just pure nostalgia, it's exactly the opposite of what RL needs to survive.

In the spirit of the thread I will offer some suggestions as to how to improve engagement with the Challenge Cup.

European Challenge Cup - Create routes for teams on the continent to qualify for competition.

All SL, Championship, League one teams enter in Round 1.

Professional and semi professional teams to play with handicap of first team players against amateur opposition until quarter-final stage.

E.G - St Helens v Rochdale Mayfield (Amateur). St Helens can only pick a squad containing 50% of first team players. The next round St Helens v Bradford Bulls (Semi pro) St Helens can pick a squad of 75% first team players. Against SL or full time opposition no handicap is applied or against any opposition at the quarter final stage. St Helens v Warrington (Round 3) - no handicap or St Helens v Halifax (Quarter final) - no handicap.

The main issues of the Challenge Cup is that SL teams only have to win 3 games to reach a final. It's hardly creating the stuff of dreams or the sense of an epic journey to reach a Wembley final when they can play a weak championship team then only two SL teams and then they're a Challenge Cup finalist.

It's a given SL teams will compete a CC final but we've devalued the competition to the point that big clubs only sense jeopardy in the semi finals and Championship Clubs are completely out of the running by round 6. There needs to be more fixtures with a genuine sense of peril and achievement for advancing into the next round.

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28 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The RFL are clearly just using their owned media to promote this, which confirms they are targeting existing customers only. 

I would say, I'm getting a lot of FB posts about the cup final - with some lovely creative I would add, some very nice animations and stories etc. but I expect I am seeing that because I heavily engage with RL media. 

This is the thing that strikes me - the creative output that comes out of the RFL on this is actually very good. The animated videos of Tom Briscoe's fifth try and Danny Houghton's try-saving tackle are brilliant in terms of production values. 

But as you say, it's the sort of thing that I as an RL fan will appreciate and probably find, but what is the distribution to people outside our usual bubble? This is why I personally get so focused on the "audience" angle whenever we talk about growth or expansion; we need to know who we actually want to reach - everything else is secondary. 

Since the finalists were confirmed, the 'Challenge Cup' page has been running four ad campaigns across the Meta network (so Facebook and Instagram) - although the creative is exactly the same on two of them. What we don't know is how much money is being spent and who is being targeted by this (Meta only discloses this for political advertising) but I don't think there is enough creative out there, there probably isn't enough targeted creative (if you didn't know RL and the context, the Danny Houghton tackle means nothing to you and the ad actually cuts out before the real killer line in Dave Woods' commentary lands) and suspect what we have isn't being distributed widely enough. 

We often talk about how the RL "marketing" is poor when what people really mean is "advertising". The advertising creative isn't - it actually as good as what many other sports come up with. The problem is how it's actually targeted, distributed, measured and what the product on offer actually is - the marketing bit. 

 

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Just now, gingerjon said:

Sometimes it's little things - like really little.

I took Tiny Ginger to the 2017 Women's Cricket World Cup final at Lord's. Now, as you might imagine, there were a lot of the standard things and it was all mostly done really well. And it helped that it was tremendous match that England won.

As we left, everyone who wanted one, but especially those with kids, was given a branded plastic set of bat, ball and stumps to take home. We'd not asked for it, paid for it or known we were getting but everyone had the chance to get one.

That simple thing kept his interest going in cricket - we were down the park playing the next day - and was part of the process (along with other nudges) that means that we go to at least one day of cricket together every year. Even though he's too cool to do anything else with me, we do that.

Is it beyond the reach of the RFL to make sure that folk can get a mini rugby ball as they're leaving (other options available, it's just the quickest like for like transfer) - or just something unexpected but that adds to the pleasure and positive associations of the day whatever the score or quality of the contest.

100% agreed. 

I expect it is due to environmental and littering issues but remember we used to give sponsor Try cards out at games, or those bangy inflatables etc. - people felt like they were getting something, they had fun waving and banging them, that showed on camera and sponsors got coverage. 

We maybe need to be more creative nowadays, but the principals are there. 

One of the nice things I've seen at Wire this year is in the ground they have plate spinners and free face painting - my daughter loves it. We stumbled across it one time, but it made her day having a go with the plastic plates and having her face painted. Her day was then ruined as they didn't even bother putting a person in Wolfies suit. 🤣

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14 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Agree the site is huge, you could have wheelchair RL demonstrations, a whole women's and girls RL section, entertainment and offerings. That would actually get more people to Wembley at 12.30 than will be in the stadium for the 1895 cup final next weekend.

A lot of the space around the ground has been swallowed up by the building of flats and entertainment facilities. The biggest car park nearest to Wembley Stadium has been used previously to make an NFL fan park when that has been there but for rugby league there, we’re heavily dependent on coaches, so much of that land is used for parking. 

Fan parks and other entertainment areas are a good idea, though we’re limited on space at Wembley these days. I know we’ve tried small fan parks outside the Arena (I’ve never really looked at them when they’ve had them there so I won’t comment) and even the idea behind getting someone to turn BoxPark into a bit of an event pre-game isn’t a bad one but it’s been poorly executed with Simmons and Godwin running around and shouting like lunatics rather than being something that would appeal to people like us, diehards, and people who might be at their first ever game. 

You don’t want to arrange one too far away from the stadium either as you want people around the venue on the day as part of the television broadcast. 

Ultimately, it’s tough but not impossible to achieve. 

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