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Wane to meet Radley … Talks Walker and Hastings to


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20 minutes ago, dealwithit said:

As an Aussie (with a bad education apparently) and an avid Super League fan, here’s by take:

Walker is a good young half, but there’s better English halves. Walker has the luxury of an imposing forward pack and a partner in Keary that takes the lead most plays. This allows Walker to chime in with a bit of brilliance now and then. If you put Smith, Dodd, Pryce in that position they’d look equally as good as Walker. So I would pick Walker in the squad if England was his first choice, but I wouldn’t automatically select him on match day. 

As for Radley and Hastings, they are very good players and could help England win the WC. I would pick Morgan Knowles over Radley, but I would still have Radley in the 17.

The 1 per centers on this forum need to remember that England desperately needs to win the World Cup to gain long term public support from the 99 per centers. Nothing will boost RL in England like a WC victory. 

As another Australian I agree on the assessment of Walker and the line of reasoning that would justify including the likes of Radley/Hastings however I probably disagree on whether they are the difference between England winning or losing the WC. 

If we were talking about say Yeo/Cleary or Murray/DCE-Reynolds-Moses etc. then absolutely I would agree that the potential benefit would outweigh the cost but I'm not sure Radley/Hastings reflect the necessary improvement on their English-bred counterparts.

Another consideration is 2025, obviously a home WC is massively important but we're in the unique situation where the next one is only in 3 years. I think it's fairly well accepted that England will be better placed in 2025 so now we should consider the potential negatives a selection of Hastings/Radley could incur for the future. Is the gap between Hastings and the next best pick enough to justify taking a potential squad berth off a youngster such as Mikey Lewis who could well be lining up in 2025? Obviously the Austin/Handley situation is at another extreme of the spectrum but I think it does demonstrate there are potential negative consequences for the bloke who misses out and this should factor into considerations.

To be honest I don't really think there's a right answer to this question and I can see both sides arguments as being valid. 

 

Edit: I think it's also fairly certain that Hastings is the only one in genuine consideration here, Walker/Radley would be very long odds at ruling themselves out of Origin selection at this point in their careers.

Edited by UTK
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15 minutes ago, UTK said:

As another Australian I agree on the assessment of Walker and the line of reasoning that would justify including the likes of Radley/Hastings however I probably disagree on whether they are the difference between England winning or losing the WC. 

If we were talking about say Yeo/Cleary or Murray/DCE-Reynolds-Moses etc. then absolutely I would agree that the potential benefit would outweigh the cost but I'm not sure Radley/Hastings reflect the necessary improvement on their English-bred counterparts.

Another consideration is 2025, obviously a home WC is massively important but we're in the unique situation where the next one is only in 3 years. I think it's fairly well accepted that England will be better placed in 2025 so now we should consider the potential negatives a selection of Hastings/Radley could incur for the future. Is the gap between Hastings and the next best pick enough to justify taking a potential squad berth off a youngster such as Mikey Lewis who could well be lining up in 2025? Obviously the Austin/Handley situation is at another extreme of the spectrum but I think it does demonstrate there are potential negative consequences for the bloke who misses out and this should factor into considerations.

To be honest I don't really think there's a right answer to this question and I can see both sides arguments as being valid. 

 

Edit: I think it's also fairly certain that Hastings is the only one in genuine consideration here, Walker/Radley would be very long odds at ruling themselves out of Origin selection at this point in their careers.

A very considered reply. I was forgetting the next WC was only 3 years away. 
Overall, I think there is some exceptional talent being produced in SL that should be given first crack. But if there are any major gaps, I wouldn’t overlook any available world class players that genuinely desire representing England. To assess those last two requisites, I’ll leave that to Coach Wane. 

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9 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Really, so you think if Australia gave him the nod he would say hang on a minute let me think about that one?

I don't know. I'm just going on what I've heard from him.

I agree with what Damien said about it being note-worthy if he as a 24-year-old decides to pin his allegiance to England. Look, he does have an English dad and he hasn't played for the Kangaroos, so he's perfectly entitled to mull over things and decide whether to stick things out and hope to play for Oz or to put his hand up to play for his father's country.

I suspect that he would aspire to play for Oz, but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't be proud and chuffed to play for England.

People can feel a link to more than one country.

Edited by StandOffHalf
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9 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Thanks for the reply Damien.

I would go as far to say if Mr Wane offered him a place in the England set up tomorrow he would not accept it, instead he would say I want to wait to see if I get SoO and Australian selection before commiting to England, he would want to keep his options open.

I rather agree with this, Harry. Elite NRL players seem to like keeping their options open and making things to a shape to suit their career paths.

I saw an interview that Danny Weidler did with Hastings and he laughed when asked about Origin, saying that representing GB didn't make him ineligible for NSW. I suspect that if he and the others were asked to choose tomorrow between Origin and England that they'd go with the former.

I think Aussies who are eligible for England should probably be allowed to play Origin and retain their English eligibility. Players who represent the Pacific countries are picked for Origin. It seems a bit unfair to me on chaps like Hastings who undoubtedly would be stoked to play for NSW.

Edited by StandOffHalf
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42 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

why cant radley play for eng and play origin? tedesco plays origin and played for italy?

I think it's because England are a tier one country.

"I'm a traditionalist and I don"t think you'd ever see me coaching an Australian national side!"  Lee Radford, RLW March 2016

Proud to be a member of the TRL woke claque

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1 hour ago, StandOffHalf said:

I don't know. I'm just going on what I've heard from him.

I agree with what Damien said about it being note-worthy if he as a 24-year-old decides to pin his allegiance to England. Look, he does have an English dad and he hasn't played for the Kangaroos, so he's perfectly entitled to mull over things and decide whether to stick things out and hope to play for Oz or to put his hand up to play for his father's country.

I suspect that he would aspire to play for Oz, but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't be proud and chuffed to play for England.

People can feel a link to more than one country.

I think the last sentence is the key one here.  We cannot know the minds of others and the drivers and allegiances they feel.

Suggesting that Radley would not want to play for England (his father's country of birth) is like saying that the children of the Burgess brothers would not feel any allegiance to England as they are born and bred in Australia.

Edited by Dunbar
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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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34 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I think the last sentence is the key one here.  We cannot know the minds of others and the drivers and allegiances they feel.

Suggesting that Radley would not want to play for England (his father's country of birth) is like saying that the children of the Burgess brothers would not feel any allegiance to England as they are born and bred in Australia.

I have seen him be asked on interview and said he wants to play for Australia but did mention his dad.

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1 hour ago, graveyard johnny said:

why cant radley play for eng and play origin? tedesco plays origin and played for italy?

He can from an eligibility point of view. Origin is a state level competition that has no bearing on internationals.

Except Australia won't allow anyone to be picked for Origin who haven't committed to Australia.

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54 minutes ago, MrPosh said:

He can from an eligibility point of view. Origin is a state level competition that has no bearing on internationals.

Except Australia won't allow anyone to be picked for Origin who haven't committed to Australia.

Not sure that that's quite right. Tupou is a Tongan representative.

Isn't it that they allow Pacific Islanders but exclude Tier 1 England and NZ?

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18 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

Not sure that that's quite right. Tupou is a Tongan representative.

Isn't it that they allow Pacific Islanders but exclude Tier 1 England and NZ?

The eligibility rules for State of Origin state:

To qualify for State of Origin you must be eligible and elect to play for Australia and have not represented another Tier 1 Nation at Senior Level (England/New Zealand).

The 'elect for' is the interesting part... because if they are not selected (in a year with a comp like the World Cup in particular) would they then be OK to play for other nations... this year it is relevant for players like Jarome Luai and Kotoni Staggs who could play Origin and then for their heritage nations at the World Cup if they don't get picked for Australia. 

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

The eligibility rules for State of Origin state:

To qualify for State of Origin you must be eligible and elect to play for Australia and have not represented another Tier 1 Nation at Senior Level (England/New Zealand).

The 'elect for' is the interesting part... because if they are not selected (in a year with a comp like the World Cup in particular) would they then be OK to play for other nations... this year it is relevant for players like Jarome Luai and Kotoni Staggs who could play Origin and then for their heritage nations at the World Cup if they don't get picked for Australia. 

Seems a bit farcical to me.

Basically Staggs is ''electing'' to play for Oz to get to play in Origin, probably knowing that he'll be in red later in the year. It would be funny and sad for the game in some ways if Meninga picked him for Oz!

I think there's a slight issue with gaming the system. I think Origin should either be for players who want to rep the Kangaroos or it should be open to Aussies who rep other countries.

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4 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

Seems a bit farcical to me.

Basically Staggs is ''electing'' to play for Oz to get to play in Origin, probably knowing that he'll be in red later in the year. It would be funny and sad for the game in some ways if Meninga picked him for Oz!

I think there's a slight issue with gaming the system. I think Origin should either be for players who want to rep the Kangaroos or it should be open to Aussies who rep other countries.

It's a difficult one.  Players like Staggs and Jarome Luai are born in Australia and so it is hardly as if the Kangaroos are poaching players from other nations.

I would be happy if the Aussies got first choice and then let others play for their heritage nations... I think with the numbers involved this will be fine.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

It's a difficult one.  Players like Staggs and Jarome Luai are born in Australia and so it is hardly as if the Kangaroos are poaching players from other nations.

I would be happy if the Aussies got first choice and then let others play for their heritage nations... I think with the numbers involved this will be fine.

I think the new rules mean that if Staggs doesn't get picked for Origin and plays for Tonga in the mid season test Australia cannot pick him in that calendar year. Same for anyone who pulls on a shirt in those games.

Edited by Scubby
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1 minute ago, Scubby said:

I think the new rules mean that if Staggs doesn't get picked for Origin and plays for Tonga in the mid season test Australia cannot pick him in that calendar year. Same for anyone who pulls on a shirt in those games.

Yes, that's fair enough.  I was thinking if he does get an Origin spot but not the Kangaroo squad at the end of the year.  Then he (and others) can go to the World Cup for other nations.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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Just now, Dunbar said:

Yes, that's fair enough.  I was thinking if he does get an Origin spot but not the Kangaroo squad at the end of the year.  Then he (and others) can go to the World Cup for other nations.

Yes, Paulo said on Sunday that he would play for Australia over Samoa if selected as will To'o which is disappointing to hear.

Does make you wonder if a few players may also swerve the mid season tests to hedge their bets for the WC.

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11 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

It's a difficult one.  Players like Staggs and Jarome Luai are born in Australia and so it is hardly as if the Kangaroos are poaching players from other nations.

I would be happy if the Aussies got first choice and then let others play for their heritage nations... I think with the numbers involved this will be fine.

I suppose so, but I still prefer the idea of a player picking a country and sticking with it. Staggs is a Tongan rep but he grew up in Australia. I can totally understand his desire to play Origin.

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12 minutes ago, Scubby said:

I think the new rules mean that if Staggs doesn't get picked for Origin and plays for Tonga in the mid season test Australia cannot pick him in that calendar year. Same for anyone who pulls on a shirt in those games.

I imagine that players who might be on Australia's radar will be minded to skip the mid-season games then.

It's really this giving of ''first pick'' to the Aussies that I think reflects a tad negatively on the game.

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16 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Does make you wonder if a few players may also swerve the mid season tests to hedge their bets for the WC.

It's a fair point but I really can't think of many Pacific Island heritage players who would be in with a decent shot of Kangaroo selection later this year but not in the mix for Origin.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

It's a fair point but I really can't think of many Pacific Island heritage players who would be in with a decent shot of Kangaroo selection later this year but not in the mix for Origin.

Yep, Api Koroisau, David Fifita and Daniel Siafiti are probably the only ones that spring to mind. Cook being the incumbent and form for the other two at the moment.

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6 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

It's a fair point but I really can't think of many Pacific Island heritage players who would be in with a decent shot of Kangaroo selection later this year but not in the mix for Origin.

One of the benefits of having Origin and the internationals at the same time, heehee...

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If all interested and fit, I would have Knowles over Radley, although he'd be a useful squad member.

Walker over Hastings, he offers so much more. That said, they could potentially complement each other, but I'd rather see Lomax at stand off. 

Unfortunately, the other English halves are not playing well enough and Dodd, who I would consider, is out.

The interesting one is where you play Welsby because he has to be in the 17. He could do a job at centre or full back, I don't think he's good enough at stand off as things stand.

The England side is very much in transition which is a shame because I don't expect us to do well on home soil. 2025 potentially offers us much greater opportunity with the further development of some of our promising youngsters

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6 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

If all interested and fit, I would have Knowles over Radley, although he'd be a useful squad member.

Walker over Hastings, he offers so much more. That said, they could potentially complement each other, but I'd rather see Lomax at stand off. 

Unfortunately, the other English halves are not playing well enough and Dodd, who I would consider, is out.

The interesting one is where you play Welsby because he has to be in the 17. He could do a job at centre or full back, I don't think he's good enough at stand off as things stand.

The England side is very much in transition which is a shame because I don't expect us to do well on home soil. 2025 potentially offers us much greater opportunity with the further development of some of our promising youngsters

Can’t see Lomax featuring in the World Cup,he’ll need surgery & even if he delays it,I’m not sure he’s worth the risk of playing with the injury at test level.

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Walker and Radley are excellent players who would clearly enhance the squad and it would be a positive choice if they tied their colours to the mast as they clearly can play rep footy for NSW/Australia in their career unlike a Heighington who never added anything we didn’t already have better homegrown options.

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