How do we furnish a promoted team?

[RayCee]

Would someone be able to explain to me the logic behind Championship clubs not being allowed to run academy teams? 

[Harry Stottle]

16 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

You are assuming I watched it.

I am certain you would have watched it Dav, given how big of a fan of the game you are.

PS and also to watch Leigh lose!

Edited May 30, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, RayCee said:

Would someone be able to explain to me the logic behind Championship clubs not being allowed to run academy teams? 

I think you need to direct that question to Mr R Rimmer c/o the RFL, Ray.

But I will hazard a guess in Leigh's case they are to close to Wigan, Saints and Warrington, just as was Castleford, Bradford and HKR to their big neighbours, but the weight of derision at the decision to exclude them from having an academy brought an about turn from Rimmer.

[Davo5]

11 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I am certain you would have watched it Dav, given how big of a fan of the game you are.

PS and also to watch Leigh lose!

Wrong again I’m afraid 

[wiganermike]

12 minutes ago, RayCee said:

Would someone be able to explain to me the logic behind Championship clubs not being allowed to run academy teams? 

I assume that the limiting of the number of academies is to prevent community clubs having all of their players taken. If a typical academy squad has 3 players in it that will go on to be established first team players then they need 20 plus players that won't make it just to give the 3 a team to play in until they are old enough. Cut the number of academies and you cut the number of squad place holders (for want of a kinder term) needed across the competition so the number taken from the community game is fewer. With a limited number of academies able to function it makes sense to place them where the greatest amount of money is and that is in SL. So unless in a strategic outpost like London or Newcastle the catchment area for non SL clubs is already covered by a SL club. Bradford is the only outlier in that I think. It's far from an ideal situation.

[Angelic Cynic]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I think you need to direct that question to Mr R Rimmer c/o the RFL, Ray.

But I will hazard a guess in Leigh's case they are to close to Wigan, Saints and Warrington, just as was Castleford, Bradford and HKR to their big neighbours, but the weight of derision at the decision to exclude them from having an academy brought an about turn from Rimmer.

I ain't an admirer of the governing body,but it is the decision making of Dave Rotheram and NOT Rimmer.

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/36634/column-|-dave-rotherham-on-the-start-of-the-new-season

He decided on the 3 clubs NOT being granted 'elite' academy status,but recently changed that in regard to Hull KR.

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/60088/hull-kr-awarded-elite-academy-licence

[Derwent]

14 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Wrong again I’m afraid 

Mont v Brow game ?

[The Blues Ox]

6 hours ago, Damien said:

So a different debate. My post was on about overseas players in the Championship, I never even mentioned Leigh. If every lower league club had squads with half the players from overseas then you would have to seriously question the value of investing in them as a pathway for players.

I'm not sure how your argument works of there not being enough quality full time players for 12 SL teams but yet Leigh are somehow raising the quality of the full time player pool by employing players who aren't good enough for Super League. That's a complete contradiction. As long as Leigh aren't getting one extra penny compared to other Championship clubs to do that then that's fine. If they are getting 3 times the funding as per the last TV deal, to the disadvantage of other Championship clubs, to run that full time squad then that is completely wrong.

I'm not going to argue about academies as my views on this are quite clear, no club should be prevented from having one. This is especially so when salary cap rules give advantages to clubs developing their own players.

Blake Ferguson is not good enough for SL?

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

I ain't an admirer of the governing body,but it is the decision making of Dave Rotheram and NOT Rimmer.

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/36634/column-|-dave-rotherham-on-the-start-of-the-new-season

He decided on the 3 clubs NOT being granted 'elite' academy status,but recently changed that in regard to Hull KR.

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/60088/hull-kr-awarded-elite-academy-licence

Ralph Rimmer is the boss and the buck stops right there, it was also Ralph who deliverd the decision who which applicants were awarded licences, and also Ralph who answered the critics of the decision and then allowed Cas, Bradford and Hull KR to carry on, 'Elite' status is just a play on words, they have an academy and play in the academy League what else is there to do.

[Saint Toppy]

6 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

I ain't an admirer of the governing body,but it is the decision making of Dave Rotheram and NOT Rimmer.

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/36634/column-|-dave-rotherham-on-the-start-of-the-new-season

He decided on the 3 clubs NOT being granted 'elite' academy status,but recently changed that in regard to Hull KR.

https://www.rugby-league.com/article/60088/hull-kr-awarded-elite-academy-licence

Rotheram is just the Chief officer in charge if administering it. The Criteria and policies regarding Academy licencing was set by the RFL Board of which Rimmer is the Chairman. It was Rimmer & the board who decided who got a licence and who didn't, and also decided how many licences there were going to be.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, The Blues Ox said:

Blake Ferguson is not good enough for SL?

Great argument, 1 player. I'm sure there's English players in the Championship good enough for SL too. The very fact Ferguson ended up at Leigh doesn't exactly indicate he was inundated with offers from other clubs. Also what about the 11 or so other overseas Leigh players? Are you trying to say they are all SL standard too?

[Saint Toppy]

6 hours ago, RP London said:

Therefore, IMHO its a case of changing the transfer system.. There does seem to be a little bit of money changing hands but not much, players seem to be moving more when they are off contract. So how about making it that no one can sign a contract or pre contract until the end of the season. Or to make all off contract players basically sign into an RFL/SL pot and almost have a draft of off contract players.. NRL players can put their hands up too. New teams gets extra picks, lowest teams get to pick first etc. Its not perfect and there are holes that can be picked in it (as its not a fully formed idea, i have other things to do) but its the start of a thought of giving the promoted team the same time as everyone else to pick up players off contract and to stop being left with the dregs. It would be a departure from the norm for sure but we need that. Of course there are problems where you have the likes of Chris Hill wanting 2 years rather than 1 and maybe the team that drafts him still only want to give him 1 year, where as another would have given him 2, but I am sure something can be worked out on that front.

How to screw up the entire transfer market just to try and help 1 promoted team 

You can't force players to go and play for a club they don't want to play for or for less money than they can get elswhere. 

As an example Welsby & Lees were both off contract at Saints at the end of this season. Under your proposals both wouldn't be able to re-sign with Saints (as they've both just done) instead having to wait until the end of the year and then probably find out they've both been picked to go & play for a promoted team who they have no interest in playing for and who may not be able to pay them the same as they were being offered to stay at Saints.

Clubs would just instantly give up on investing heavily in their youth development if they knew any other club could just come in and take them at the end of their contracts.

[Harry Stottle]

7 minutes ago, Damien said:

Great argument, 1 player. I'm sure there's English players in the Championship good enough for SL too. The very fact Ferguson ended up at Leigh doesn't exactly indicate he was inundated with offers from other clubs. Also what about the 11 or so other overseas Leigh players? Are you trying to say they are all SL standard too?

Not all Damien but I will wager there will be SL clubs hovering around a number of them when they are coming off contract.

[RP London]

19 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

How to screw up the entire transfer market just to try and help 1 promoted team 

You can't force players to go and play for a club they don't want to play for or for less money than they can get elswhere. 

As an example Welsby & Lees were both off contract at Saints at the end of this season. Under your proposals both wouldn't be able to re-sign with Saints (as they've both just done) instead having to wait until the end of the year and then probably find out they've both been picked to go & play for a promoted team who they have no interest in playing for and who may not be able to pay them the same as they were being offered to stay at Saints.

Clubs would just instantly give up on investing heavily in their youth development if they knew any other club could just come in and take them at the end of their contracts.

You just dont let them get to the last year of their contract... also, as with any draft, you could trade around to get it but then money goes to the team coming lower that you trade with, or maybe you get 2 players instead of 1... there are plenty of ways of making something work.. but why not try something different.. if Saints want to keep their players you just get them to sign a 2 year contract in September of the year before they go off contract.. not difficult

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Derwent said:

Mont v Brow game ?

 NO tellys at Egremont clubhouse?

[idrewthehaggis]

4 hours ago, RayCee said:

Would someone be able to explain to me the logic behind Championship clubs not being allowed to run academy teams? 

 

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I think you need to direct that question to Mr R Rimmer c/o the RFL, Ray.

But I will hazard a guess in Leigh's case they are to close to Wigan, Saints and Warrington, just as was Castleford, Bradford and HKR to their big neighbours, but the weight of derision at the decision to exclude them from having an academy brought an about turn from Rimmer.

 

3 hours ago, wiganermike said:

I assume that the limiting of the number of academies is to prevent community clubs having all of their players taken. If a typical academy squad has 3 players in it that will go on to be established first team players then they need 20 plus players that won't make it just to give the 3 a team to play in until they are old enough. Cut the number of academies and you cut the number of squad place holders (for want of a kinder term) needed across the competition so the number taken from the community game is fewer. With a limited number of academies able to function it makes sense to place them where the greatest amount of money is and that is in SL. So unless in a strategic outpost like London or Newcastle the catchment area for non SL clubs is already covered by a SL club. Bradford is the only outlier in that I think. It's far from an ideal situation.

I imagine that your explanation has merit, Mike.

But.

Whilst this may be so, the consequences of a few clubs having Academies and an even fewer clubs having "excellent" academies warps the competitiveness of SL.

I will repeat this. if a few elite clubs dominant the best of Academy level talent by good and not so good reasons, then the Salary Cap dispensations given pretty much ensure that the chosen few can also pay the extra for non club produced talent.

Any half decent player produced by a "minnow" club is therefore snapped up when their contract ends.

If you want to make SL less of a bored parade of the same again each year,  you need to address this.

 

My thoughts-

Central contracting

Regional academies

Ring fenced central funding to ensure every SL club has a Marquee signing.

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by idrewthehaggis

[Wolford6]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Ralph Rimmer is the boss and the buck stops right there, it was also Ralph who deliverd the decision who which applicants were awarded licences, and also Ralph who answered the critics of the decision and then allowed Cas, Bradford and Hull KR to carry on, 'Elite' status is just a play on words, they have an academy and play in the academy League what else is there to do.

Every week, we get told over the tannoys that the club lottery helps fund the academy, which receives no funding from the Rugby League

[Wolford6]

As for surviving after promotion to Superleague; the answer lies in how you get promoted in the first place.

 

Go with young guns, not journeymen who can't get a full-time gig anywhere else.

[arcticchris]

It’s going to be even harder than usual this year and next with the new NRL club Redcliffe Dolphins coming on board soon picking up the young talents and fringe first graders looking to break through or play every week that might otherwise have considered coming to Superleague.

[GUBRATS]

12 minutes ago, Wolford6 said:

As for surviving after promotion to Superleague; the answer lies in how you get promoted in the first place.

 

Go with young guns, not journeymen who can't get a full-time gig anywhere else.

Young guns or journeymen , you lose them either way 

If you aren't allowed an academy , how do you get ' young guns ' ?

Edited May 30, 2022 by GUBRATS

[Wolford6]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Young guns or journeymen , you lose them either way 

If you aren't allowed an academy , how do you get ' young guns ' ?

Just pick up the ones that the John Kear regime let go.

[Damien]

15 minutes ago, Wolford6 said:

As for surviving after promotion to Superleague; the answer lies in how you get promoted in the first place.

 

Go with young guns, not journeymen who can't get a full-time gig anywhere else.

Excellent point. Various clubs have managed to stay in Super League so it can certainly be done. These change the rules and change the format type threads always seem to come from fans of a certain club. A club that has a tendency to take a very haphazard approach that seems to change from one season to the next on the whim of a chairman.

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

Excellent point. Various clubs have managed to stay in Super League so it can certainly be done. These change the rules and change the format type threads always seem to come from fans of a certain club. A club that has a tendency to take a very haphazard approach that seems to change from one season to the next on the whim of a chairman.

Harry started this thread because another poster was drifting an existing thread this way , feel free to ignore it if you like 

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Harry started this thread because another poster was drifting an existing thread this way , feel free to ignore it if you like 

What I posted was in reply to another poster and is certainly on topic. Feel free to ignore if you like or actually contribute to the topic.

[GUBRATS]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

What I posted was in reply to another poster and is certainly on topic. Feel free to ignore if you like or actually contribute to the topic.

I'm fine with how things are now , although IMO the Championship should start on boxing Day and finish earlier