How do we furnish a promoted team?

[Harry Stottle]

21 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

 NO tellys at Egremont clubhouse?

@Davo5no need to be do confused.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yeah it's a consensus of opinion he is a Richard Cranium, on that topic I certainly agreed with them.

But good sidestep from "where their club has been institutionally advantaged for well over half a decade"

No wonder he didn't see it was a bad deal considering he was coming from the Championship, where funding disparities of 3, 4, or even 5 times were par for the course. Must have thought half the funding of the champions was a bargain!

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Nah, If you cant beat em join em.

I was a shop steward at 19 and a staunch Labour supporter and waved the red flag, but I got myself into buisness and gradually changed to the blue side in looking after No 1.

But they weren't beaten, and no exceptions for Toronto or Toulouse were made!

[Davo5]

11 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

@Davo5no need to be do confused.

Reading the hypocritical nonsense & false assumptions your posting on this thread I’d say there is every need.

[RP London]

48 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Yes this happens to some players now but there's a big difference. In that scenario the players find themselves in that position either because they choose to wait it out, run their contract down and see what offers come along, or they're forced to wait because other clubs don't really want them.

In your 'Draft' solution players are forced into that situation by preventing them from securing their next contract when they want to and with the club they want to be at.

Would you like to be forced to work for a company you were told to work for and be forced to wait until a certain date every few years knowing then you then just have 3-4 months to try and secure another job ??. I'd challenge anyone to truthfully answer yes to the above !!

These issues aside there's a far better solution that i've long championed that would completely eliminate this problem you think exists - its called Franchising ! No P&R, No problems with promoted teams trying to compete

As I say it does happen in other sports and it isnt a major issue. Clubs and Players will adapt to how they sign their contracts and the lengths.. it would be such the big deal for the player you are making it out to be... 

Anyway your last paragraph pretty much sums it up.. that is not a solution as the original problem was while keeping P&R... so you cannot use franchising as a solution. 

anyway... you think Franchising is a solution but then write this about my thoughts!!

"Having some sort of Central RL system doesn't work when the governing body hardly has a pot to p$$$ in and has a pretty poor record when it comes to managing the game as a whole let alone having to manage individual player contracts as well."

Jesus wept look at the mess they made of it last time.... we may solve the issue but we wont have any supporters left!

[Snowys Backside]

4 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

There's been a few posts proposing shifting the season to start on Boxing Day and thus finishing earlier so there's a greater access to the player pool for the promoted club.

Honestly, I can't see how that would help

The season starts on the last weekend on January now, so moving to Boxing Day is only going to shift the end of the season to the end of August at best

Since players can sign for clubs from May 1st how would that help the promoted club any more than what we have now?

It would presuambly just make SL clubs and agents get deals done a few weeks earlier than they are now.

Am I missing something here?

Would it be a problem if the league winners got promoted though? 

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Reading the hypocritical nonsense & false assumptions your posting on this thread I’d say there is every need.

In a scouse accent Dav, "Calm down, Calm down"

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

No wonder he didn't see it was a bad deal considering he was coming from the Championship, where funding disparities of 3, 4, or even 5 times were par for the course. Must have thought half the funding of the champions was a bargain!

See Tommy, that is why Mr B is making a lot of money in his buisness he backs winners when he speculates to accumulate, the rules of the comp deemed that the higher up the ladder you finished the more prize money you got, it's a no brainer really the contracts he paid for the players got paid back.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

But they weren't beaten, and no exceptions for Toronto or Toulouse were made!

In the OP, I said from memory Catalan had a dispensation on the number of overseas player's they could employ, still waiting for that to be confirmed or otherwise, but the crux is so many people keep saying how good it was that Catalan survived, so why not Toronto, Toulouse or even Leigh or Fev being awarded the same respect?

[paulwalker71]

1 hour ago, Snowys Backside said:

Would it be a problem if the league winners got promoted though? 

Yes, because the League Winners still might not be known until the last day of the season - which is going to be late-August at best

[Snowys Backside]

1 hour ago, paulwalker71 said:

Yes, because the League Winners still might not be known until the last day of the season - which is going to be late-August at best

Long way to play 27 fixtures but still, getting people off contract before the current cut off of Nov is far better. 

[Saint Toppy]

18 hours ago, RP London said:

As I say it does happen in other sports and it isnt a major issue. Clubs and Players will adapt to how they sign their contracts and the lengths.. it would be such the big deal for the player you are making it out to be... 

 

Which UK sports use a Draft System ?? I'm only aware of 1 and that's for the cricket T100 series. Its yet to be proven whether it works or not because its still in its trial period and besides which most of the top players are under central contracts anyway with the ECB so its not exactly comparable to RL. Every other sport I know who uses a Draft is in North America and all of those sports have no P&R they're all Franchises.

The NRL tried it once in the early 90's (or it may have even been the late 80's can't quite remember) and it failed miserably. The players took the NRL to court and won because of the impact it was having on them (exactly as I said in my previous post)

[RP London]

24 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Which UK sports use a Draft System ?? I'm only aware of 1 and that's for the cricket T100 series. Its yet to be proven whether it works or not because its still in its trial period and besides which most of the top players are under central contracts anyway with the ECB so its not exactly comparable to RL. Every other sport I know who uses a Draft is in North America and all of those sports have no P&R they're all Franchises.

The NRL tried it once in the early 90's (or it may have even been the late 80's can't quite remember) and it failed miserably. The players took the NRL to court and won because of the impact it was having on them (exactly as I said in my previous post)

I'm not saying it has to be a "draft" as I have said umpteen times, just a control on the fact that you cant start signing players in May when you dont know the make up of the league, this COULD be done by a draft style (as its something that could be bigged up... maybe not too). Even if it were a draft it wouldnt be for the whole league just for those off contract, which actually could be very good for the players. 

In terms of a draft (again this is not the only way to deal with this process, it was one example) In the UK I believe it is just the Hundred that do it but I don't know if Basketball does or not either. However, someone has to be the first and just because it isn't done by someone else doesn't make it, ipso facto, a bad idea. The Hundred doing it would suggest that it would not have the legal issues as otherwise it would, arguably, have been challenged.

Also the fact the top players are centrally contracted in cricket is irrelevant to your argument about job security as the top players in RL are always going to be under contract as you don't let it rundown as you wouldn't want to lose them at the end of their contract for free (this is where i think players could benefit IMHO). Its always the lower end of the players and that is the same with the cricket, the lower end are not centrally contracted and have the same issues as you have been mentioning.

Players off contract or on one year contracts always have the worry of "whats next", players in the last year of their contract without security could get an injury which means they dont get a contract next year, its always been that way if you go too far you get to the NFL depths where players go on strike for their last year so they dont get injured and to force the hand of their team.. It is a job that doesnt have a lot of job security.

If you get relegated you may get released mid contract in November when every club has filled its squad, what then? you go to the promoted club on a 1 year contract or a contract with a relegation release because they don't want to take your wages to the championship. In my scenario of not letting players sign before the end of the season these players get a chance to sign at a better club on a longer contract giving them more security... 

To reiterate it is the change in signing period I advocate, which could be good for clubs and players. The "draft" or "auction" style of getting those players contracts is just something that could be more interesting than just having a period of players signing contracts, and also potentially stops "tapping up" of players. But you're fixated on that bit rather than the movement of the signing window which IMHO is the important bit and the bit i keep trying to emphasise. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by RP London

[gingerjon]

22 hours ago, paulwalker71 said:

There's been a few posts proposing shifting the season to start on Boxing Day and thus finishing earlier so there's a greater access to the player pool for the promoted club.

Honestly, I can't see how that would help

It didn't help when it was tried before.

But, you'll note, it tends to be proposed by people who are old enough to remember Boxing Day matches being a big and important deal and then gets squeezed to being about being competitive the following year.

[Saint Toppy]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

I'm not saying it has to be a "draft" as I have said umpteen times, just a control on the fact that you cant start signing players in May when you dont know the make up of the league, this COULD be done by a draft style (as its something that could be bigged up... maybe not too). Even if it were a draft it wouldnt be for the whole league just for those off contract, which actually could be very good for the players. 

In terms of a draft (again this is not the only way to deal with this process, it was one example) In the UK I believe it is just the Hundred that do it but I don't know if Basketball does or not either. However, someone has to be the first and just because it isn't done by someone else doesn't make it, ipso facto, a bad idea. The Hundred doing it would suggest that it would not have the legal issues as otherwise it would, arguably, have been challenged.

Also the fact the top players are centrally contracted in cricket is irrelevant to your argument about job security as the top players in RL are always going to be under contract as you don't let it rundown as you wouldn't want to lose them at the end of their contract for free (this is where i think players could benefit IMHO). Its always the lower end of the players and that is the same with the cricket, the lower end are not centrally contracted and have the same issues as you have been mentioning.

Players off contract or on one year contracts always have the worry of "whats next", players in the last year of their contract without security could get an injury which means they dont get a contract next year, its always been that way if you go too far you get to the NFL depths where players go on strike for their last year so they dont get injured and to force the hand of their team.. It is a job that doesnt have a lot of job security.

If you get relegated you may get released mid contract in November when every club has filled its squad, what then? you go to the promoted club on a 1 year contract or a contract with a relegation release because they don't want to take your wages to the championship. In my scenario of not letting players sign before the end of the season these players get a chance to sign at a better club on a longer contract giving them more security... 

To reiterate it is the change in signing period I advocate, which could be good for clubs and players. The "draft" or "auction" style of getting those players contracts is just something that could be more interesting than just having a period of players signing contracts, and also potentially stops "tapping up" of players. But you're fixated on that bit rather than the movement of the signing window which IMHO is the important bit and the bit i keep trying to emphasise. 

Your completely ignoring the fact that a 'draft' system has been tried in RL before and was universally disliked by players, coaches and clubs to the point where they took the governing body to court to force its withdrawal - and WON !!!

What you now seem to be suggesting is some sort of 'transfer window' like they have in football. They introduced it to stop the rich clubs just buying another player every time they got a serious injury throughout the season, it doesn't work one bit in helping the newly promoted clubs. Just because the existing PL clubs can't physically sign / register a new player until the window opens doesn't mean that the deals aren't already done & agreed behind closed doors long before. They tried to police it but have absolutely no way of stopping agents from talking with clubs at any time and getting the deals agreed well in advance of the transfer window. Exactly the same thing would happen if they introduced it into RL. By the time the promoted club was in a position to sign new players the majority of the off contract players will already have agreed deals elsewhere long before that, they just wont have registered them with the RFL.

Your really flogging a dead horse with your ideas, they just don't work. Transfer windows / dateS (whatever you want to call it) don't work in helping promoted clubs (as proved in football) and any sort of draft system is likely to be disliked by players, clubs etc. and challenged in court (lets face it the RFL couldn't even afford to take it to court against the SL clubs particularly when there's already precedent been set in Aus. where the governing body lost).  

I appreciate your trying to come up with ideas to help a promoted club but nothing you've put forward is remotely practical or enforceable (or potentially legal)

[RP London]

42 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Your completely ignoring the fact that a 'draft' system has been tried in RL before and was universally disliked by players, coaches and clubs to the point where they took the governing body to court to force its withdrawal - and WON !!!

What you now seem to be suggesting is some sort of 'transfer window' like they have in football. They introduced it to stop the rich clubs just buying another player every time they got a serious injury throughout the season, it doesn't work one bit in helping the newly promoted clubs. Just because the existing PL clubs can't physically sign / register a new player until the window opens doesn't mean that the deals aren't already done & agreed behind closed doors long before. They tried to police it but have absolutely no way of stopping agents from talking with clubs at any time and getting the deals agreed well in advance of the transfer window. Exactly the same thing would happen if they introduced it into RL. By the time the promoted club was in a position to sign new players the majority of the off contract players will already have agreed deals elsewhere long before that, they just wont have registered them with the RFL.

Your really flogging a dead horse with your ideas, they just don't work. Transfer windows / dateS (whatever you want to call it) don't work in helping promoted clubs (as proved in football) and any sort of draft system is likely to be disliked by players, clubs etc. and challenged in court (lets face it the RFL couldn't even afford to take it to court against the SL clubs particularly when there's already precedent been set in Aus. where the governing body lost).  

I appreciate your trying to come up with ideas to help a promoted club but nothing you've put forward is remotely practical or enforceable (or potentially legal)

The court loss was not in the UK so not under UK law so is not relevant. What is relevant is that a form of draft is being used in UK and NOT challenged in court.. your solution has been tried and failed in this country by this sport yet you still think its the solution, which is very odd.

your second paragraph shows a problem... everything is a problem unless you want to try and find a solution... you are just looking for problems. The whole thing is that we need to give the promoted club a fair crack at players that they are not getting. This is caused by them being signed too early to clubs already secure in Super League.. Therefore the way to stop that is to try and limit this ability. One solution MAY be to move this "window of opportunity".. What you are having an issue with in the potential "tapping up" is why I suggested something a little more controlled or random... perhaps it is not the way to do it but at least I am trying to think of them, and I am at work doing my proper job, if this was chosen as the way to go then more specialist people would get involved to cover issues that do actually exist (rather than court cases not in the UK)

You say they are not practical yet they are being done by other sports, you say they are not enforceable yet they are being done by other sports, you say they are not legal yet even in the UK they are being done and again you focus purely on the draft concept.. there are plenty of ways to sort the "tapping up" of players (lawyers would be able to sort that side of it out with their specialist knowledge) they key is the promoted club gets the same chance as other clubs to get players off contract!

Rather than focussing on shooting my idea down (with arguments that dont actual have merit [legal precedent from Aus does not work in the UK etc]) why not come up with a potential solution to the problem (franchising is not it, as has been proven by THIS sport in THIS country).

There are plenty of people who sit in boardrooms who just see an idea as something to shoot down rather than seeing an idea as the start that can be adapted to work, see a negative and fix that negative by adapting... they are drains on the company.

however, i am not going to keep on going around in circles.. you focus on the draft which is, and always has been, not the full fix but a tiny part of it that I have suggested.. fill your boots.

Edited June 1, 2022 by RP London

[Saint Toppy]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

The court loss was not in the UK so not under UK law so is not relevant. What is relevant is that a form of draft is being used in UK and NOT challenged in court.. your solution has been tried and failed in this country by this sport yet you still think its the solution, which is very odd.

your second paragraph shows a problem... everything is a problem unless you want to try and find a solution... you are just looking for problems. The whole thing is that we need to give the promoted club a fair crack at players that they are not getting. This is caused by them being signed too early to clubs already secure in Super League.. Therefore the way to stop that is to try and limit this ability. One solution MAY be to move this "window of opportunity".. What you are having an issue with in the potential "tapping up" is why I suggested something a little more controlled or random... perhaps it is not the way to do it but at least I am trying to think of them, and I am at work doing my proper job, if this was chosen as the way to go then more specialist people would get involved to cover issues that do actually exist (rather than court cases not in the UK)

You say they are not practical yet they are being done by other sports, you say they are not enforceable yet they are being done by other sports, you say they are not legal yet even in the UK they are being done and again you focus purely on the draft concept.. there are plenty of ways to sort the "tapping up" of players (lawyers would be able to sort that side of it out with their specialist knowledge) they key is the promoted club gets the same chance as other clubs to get players off contract!

Rather than focussing on shooting my idea down (with arguments that dont actual have merit [legal precedent from Aus does not work in the UK etc]) why not come up with a potential solution to the problem (franchising is not it, as has been proven by THIS sport in THIS country).

There are plenty of people who sit in boardrooms who just see an idea as something to shoot down rather than seeing an idea as the start that can be adapted to work, see a negative and fix that negative by adapting... they are drains on the company.

however, i am not going to keep on going around in circles.. you focus on the draft which is, and always has been, not the full fix but a tiny part of it that I have suggested.. fill your boots.

Probably better to just leave it there, your ridiculous ideas are never going to happen to RL in the UK anyway because there's isn't a problem to start with.

[RP London]

23 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Probably better to just leave it there, your ridiculous ideas are never going to happen to RL in the UK anyway because there's isn't a problem to start with.

of course there isnt.. you're winning so all is ok.. sod the people bouncing up and down between the divisions who have everything weighted against them.. you're ok though so thats fine.. RL at its finest!

[GUBRATS]

8 hours ago, gingerjon said:

It didn't help when it was tried before.

But, you'll note, it tends to be proposed by people who are old enough to remember Boxing Day matches being a big and important deal and then gets squeezed to being about being competitive the following year.

Widnes were promoted early in 2001 and managed to finish 7 th in SL the following year 

Also it would give the lower tiers their own build up and start , rather than being in the shadow of the start of SL 

It's a personal opinion , irrespective of my or anybody else's age 

[idrewthehaggis]

At times, this forum feels like a counselling session. So in that therapeutic spirit, I will clarify what our collection of bright sparks have cooked up to help the next promoted club.

The big ideas vaunted include-

• Various versions of a "draft."
• Ending the tier 2 league season early to allow the promoted side time to compete with the SL clubs in recruitment.
• Supplementary TV money or engorged salary cap.
• Bigger "overseas" player quota for promoted sides.
• Must have an academy
• Central contracting
• League of 14
• Change the date when clubs can talk to players
• End Championship play offs
• Two up, two down
• Bin promotion and relegation
• End of season P&R play off. 12 v 1.

And so on.

You bet IMG will get paid oceans of dollar to come up with the same "thoughts."

Before I continue, Top Marks from Sir for Toppy in his keen endeavours in attempting to vindicate the status quo.

On 31/05/2022 at 09:37, Saint Toppy said:

Its no coincidence that the 3 most successful SL clubs have the 3 best academies and the best record of consistently bringing through those youngsters into the 1st team over a long period of time. 

Whilst they had previously encountered such talk in the past about the "poor clubs" overcoming their deficiencies by pulling their own boot straps up within a rigged and self interested system, the House Masters were nevertheless impressed with his stirring polemics to ensure the overwhelming dominance of the few of the declining few. Good man. Especially if you endure a bit of gentle ribbing.

Back on track. Clearly any promoted club is going to struggle if there continues to be such a gap in central funding between SL and the Championship.

A draft system in its Stateside form would be difficult without the College infrastructure there. We have bits, but not a bite full. 

This is where Toppy is hugely correct and precise. All clubs (or none) need to have Academies. Average SL clubs need to try better.

But certainly I wonder - aside from the huge advantage it gives to the Big Clubs- what benefits to the whole Game does club academies bring.

I am not not naive to imagine the investment exclusively goes on despatching  instant SL ready youngsters, but give some £3m per year is spent, how many lads emerge from the clubs each year that are top grade standard? I bet it's no more than a dozen or so. That's a handy £250K per player. Surely that is not right. Surely. 

Is there away to streamline resources, reduce costs but improve standards through pooled actions?

A possible suggestion for an equitable draft is if the players are born from Regional or amalgamated academies, then the system to be used should be like the University clearing system.

So imagine young Lewis has "graduated" from say the North West Super Academy, he is then asked to list-UKCA clearing style-for his preferences. 

He puts at 1. St Helens 2. Wigan 3. Leeds 4. Salford and 5. Warrington.

The RFL run central clearing system and SL club recruitment head honchos sift through Lewis and his comrade's applications.

Like Uni, he might not get his first choice, but he will get a place. The likes of Saints or Wigan will still get quality, but so would all the other clubs. Promoted sides would clearly benefit.

The other helper towards a more equal competition could be a set amount of compensation when a youngster from the middle size clubs is tempted to a big club at the end of their contract.

Just thoughts...............