This Promotion/Relegation is a Farce

[crashmon]

5 hours ago, Dave T said:

This is going to sound harsh, but was it relegation that put these clubs in difficulties, or were they on their ###### well before that? The likes of Oldham, Workington, add London, Halifax etc. to that list were not shattered because of relegation imho, they were shattered because they weren't working well as clubs in advance of being demoted. Bradford famously blew themselves up in advance of relegation.

Where clubs have been strong enough, they have found it possible job to get back into SL and do a good job. 

There is a reason Oldham are where they are and Castleford are where they are for example. Cas were a stronger club.

 

To be fair, London had rebuilt well up to promotion in 2019, and after relegation probably would have been ok if it was not for our owner decided to move to a much more expensive stadium at the expenese of weakening the squad to the point we are looking at League 1 in the face.

[Tommygilf]

5 hours ago, Dave T said:

This is going to sound harsh, but was it relegation that put these clubs in difficulties, or were they on their ###### well before that? The likes of Oldham, Workington, add London, Halifax etc. to that list were not shattered because of relegation imho, they were shattered because they weren't working well as clubs in advance of being demoted. Bradford famously blew themselves up in advance of relegation.

Where clubs have been strong enough, they have found it possible job to get back into SL and do a good job. 

There is a reason Oldham are where they are and Castleford are where they are for example. Cas were a stronger club.

I agree to an extent. Some clubs have however been lucky that financial circumstances, Super League "requirements" and local councils support or the opposite have been manageable at just the right time for them. 

Oldham found themselves victim of aspects of those in a way say Fev, Cas or Wakey have not. Fax likewise. 

Equally, relegation on Wakefield, Salford or Cas (for most clubs frankly) could be catastrophic if the right steps aren't taken. Leigh, even with an unprecedented level of parachute payment and central funding still struggled. I can only think of Hull KR who have gone down from Super League and lived to tell the tale in anything like the same way. 

Relegation is often not just the result of a poor on field performance (save for a newly promoted side) I will admit. Hull KR going down was a bit of a shock, but most of the others looked doomed from kick off at the start of the season because of their off field scenario anyway. Even Wakefield in Million Pound Game 1 against Bradford had essentially binned off the entire season by round 3 for that 1 fixture. 

Relegation is often a catastrophic punishment for a club which most never recover from.

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I agree to an extent. Some clubs have however been lucky that financial circumstances, Super League "requirements" and local councils support or the opposite have been manageable at just the right time for them. 

Oldham found themselves victim of aspects of those in a way say Fev, Cas or Wakey have not. Fax likewise. 

Equally, relegation on Wakefield, Salford or Cas (for most clubs frankly) could be catastrophic if the right steps aren't taken. Leigh, even with an unprecedented level of parachute payment and central funding still struggled. I can only think of Hull KR who have gone down from Super League and lived to tell the tale in anything like the same way. 

Relegation is often not just the result of a poor on field performance (save for a newly promoted side) I will admit. Hull KR going down was a bit of a shock, but most of the others looked doomed from kick off at the start of the season because of their off field scenario anyway. Even Wakefield in Million Pound Game 1 against Bradford had essentially binned off the entire season by round 3 for that 1 fixture. 

Relegation is often a catastrophic punishment for a club which most never recover from.

Of course there will always be circumstances, call it luck or whatever, but I'm just not sure history supports your last line. 

All but Wire, Leeds, Toulouse and Catalans have been relegated from the top flight in their history. 

Sometimes clubs just find their level.

Which clubs have suffered catastrophically and not recovered? Because Oldham, Bradford, Widnes etc are not good examples of that. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Dave T

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Of course there will always be circumstances, call it luck or whatever, but I'm just not sure history supports your last line. 

All but Wire, Leeds, Toulouse and Catalans have been relegated from the top flight in their history. 

Sometimes clubs just find their level.

Which clubs have suffered catastrophically and not recovered? Because Oldham, Bradford, Widnes etc are not good examples of that. 

In the modern era Dave?

Back when Wigan were relegated, just as when Manchester United were relegated from Football's top flight, it was a sporting punishment not a financial one. Now that financial gap is much bigger. Relegation from Super League is very hard to recover from even for strong historic clubs like Bradford or Widnes; both of whom have been to the brink or beyond as businesses following relegation. The lack of Super League status doomed Oldham post Watersheddings. For expansion clubs like Newcastle/Gateshead, Sheffield and North Wales, relegation from Super League effectively set the sport back decades in those areas. 

I see the argument in clubs "finding their level", but equally, can the sport afford so many clubs struggling in that process? 

[dkw]

6 hours ago, Dave T said:

This is going to sound harsh, but was it relegation that put these clubs in difficulties, or were they on their ###### well before that? The likes of Oldham, Workington, add London, Halifax etc. to that list were not shattered because of relegation imho, they were shattered because they weren't working well as clubs in advance of being demoted. Bradford famously blew themselves up in advance of relegation.

Where clubs have been strong enough, they have found it possible job to get back into SL and do a good job. 

There is a reason Oldham are where they are and Castleford are where they are for example. Cas were a stronger club.

 

In Towns case it was both, stupid contracts with no relegation wage drops or release clauses or planning at all for it. But also a certain person's desperation to prove Paris was right by throwing resources their way that saw us have no chance of staying up.

[dkw]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Of course there will always be circumstances, call it luck or whatever, but I'm just not sure history supports your last line. 

All but Wire, Leeds, Toulouse and Catalans have been relegated from the top flight in their history. 

Sometimes clubs just find their level.

Which clubs have suffered catastrophically and not recovered? Because Oldham, Bradford, Widnes etc are not good examples of that. 

Workington dropped like a stone, barely won a game for 3 or 4 seasons and almost went out of business.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

In the modern era Dave?

Back when Wigan were relegated, just as when Manchester United were relegated from Football's top flight, it was a sporting punishment not a financial one. Now that financial gap is much bigger. Relegation from Super League is very hard to recover from even for strong historic clubs like Bradford or Widnes; both of whom have been to the brink or beyond as businesses following relegation. The lack of Super League status doomed Oldham post Watersheddings. For expansion clubs like Newcastle/Gateshead, Sheffield and North Wales, relegation from Super League effectively set the sport back decades in those areas. 

I see the argument in clubs "finding their level", but equally, can the sport afford so many clubs struggling in that process? 

Those clubs are horrendous examples. 

Only Oldham were relegated normally and they were a weak club. 

The others were evicted or resigned from SL as failures - without going into the nonsense of the 'mergers'. But they certainly weren't victims of P&R. 

Hull, Salford, Hull KR, Wakefield, Cas all suffered relegation. 

I'm not saying I support P&R, but I find the claims made about it over the top. 

It really is a case of clubs finding their level. If Oldham were a strong club surely they'd be battling with Fev and Leigh, if they weren't in already. 

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, dkw said:

Workington dropped like a stone, barely won a game for 3 or 4 seasons and almost went out of business.

Was it relegation that did that or was it that Workington were poor at that time? Their season in SL was disastrous, as much as I personally enjoyed visiting there and had a soft spot for the club because of the likes of Rowland Phillips and Kevin Ellis playing there, and more recently hosting Scotland. 

[dkw]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Was it relegation that did that or was it that Workington were poor at that time? Their season in SL was disastrous, as much as I personally enjoyed visiting there and had a soft spot for the club because of the likes of Rowland Phillips and Kevin Ellis playing there, and more recently hosting Scotland. 

It was relegation, coupled with not having contract clauses etc. Workington were poor, but were also shafted by the RFL ensuring Paris got a lot of help, including diverting players town were signing.

Relegation doomed the club, though it was also partially self inflicted by the boards decisions. 

[Dave T]

Just now, dkw said:

It was relegation, coupled with not having contract clauses etc. Workington were poor, but were also shafted by the RFL ensuring Paris got a lot of help, including diverting players town were signing.

Relegation doomed the club, though it was also partially self inflicted by the boards decisions. 

I suppose it was old world relegation, as you say without clauses. 

And you won't get me disagreeing on the farce that was Paris. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Dave T said:

Those clubs are horrendous examples. 

Only Oldham were relegated normally and they were a weak club. 

The others were evicted or resigned from SL as failures - without going into the nonsense of the 'mergers'. But they certainly weren't victims of P&R. 

Hull, Salford, Hull KR, Wakefield, Cas all suffered relegation. 

I'm not saying I support P&R, but I find the claims made about it over the top. 

It really is a case of clubs finding their level. If Oldham were a strong club surely they'd be battling with Fev and Leigh, if they weren't in already. 

You can't ask for examples and then say "oh they're horrendous examples" Dave! I accept there have been the examples you cite, though admittedly only Hull KR are an in the past 13 years.

Oldham could well be just like Leigh if their council had built them a stadium. Fev were never forced out of their home by anyone, inside RL or at a LA level.

Personally I think the system should be designed to support clubs being the best version of themselves.

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

You can't ask for examples and then say "oh they're horrendous examples" Dave! I accept there have been the examples you cite, though admittedly only Hull KR are an in the past 13 years.

Oldham could well be just like Leigh if their council had built them a stadium. Fev were never forced out of their home by anyone, inside RL or at a LA level.

Personally I think the system should be designed to support clubs being the best version of themselves.

Well for starters you didn't even give examples of relegation being catastrophic for anyone. In fact you gave examples of licensing, mergers and hand picking harming clubs. 

We have loads of clubs who have been relegated, found their level and cracked on. Some stronger clubs rose back to SL, some sunk further, some hovered around the top of the Championship around where they have always been.

Would the game have been better had we held Oldham and Workington in SL? 

I'm OK with licensing as our approach but not because it is catastrophic for teams getting relegated. History doesn't support that. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Dave T said:

Well for starters you didn't even give examples of relegation being catastrophic for anyone. In fact you gave examples of licensing, mergers and hand picking harming clubs. 

We have loads of clubs who have been relegated, found their level and cracked on. Some stronger clubs rose back to SL, some sunk further, some hovered around the top of the Championship around where they have always been.

Would the game have been better had we held Oldham and Workington in SL? 

I'm OK with licensing as our approach but not because it is catastrophic for teams getting relegated. History doesn't support that. 

Widnes and Bradford were relegated in normal circumstances, both either went bust or at least went into administration; Oldham likewise.

Only the 3 expansion examples didn't follow the "finish in the relegation spots and go down" model. I included them only to demonstrate how the wider effect of relegation of a club can impact the sports position.

Of the 5 different clubs relegated from Super League since the reintroduction of Relegation in 2014, all but Hull KR have had some pretty serious financial difficulties following. That has stretched from London slashing their playing budget, to Leigh's well documented cutting of its cloth mid season, to Widnes administration and Bradford being liquidated. Even at Hull KR I don't think it was a secret to anyone that if an immediate return to Super League wasn't achieved 

When I say that the system should be set up so that every club can be the best version of themselves, that doesn't mean keeping clubs in or forcing clubs into Super League when they are in no way capable of performing at that level. A really good semi pro club might be the best for some.

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Widnes and Bradford were relegated in normal circumstances, both either went bust or at least went into administration; Oldham likewise.

Only the 3 expansion examples didn't follow the "finish in the relegation spots and go down" model. I included them only to demonstrate how the wider effect of relegation of a club can impact the sports position.

Of the 5 different clubs relegated from Super League since the reintroduction of Relegation in 2014, all but Hull KR have had some pretty serious financial difficulties following. That has stretched from London slashing their playing budget, to Leigh's well documented cutting of its cloth mid season, to Widnes administration and Bradford being liquidated. Even at Hull KR I don't think it was a secret to anyone that if an immediate return to Super League wasn't achieved 

When I say that the system should be set up so that every club can be the best version of themselves, that doesn't mean keeping clubs in or forcing clubs into Super League when they are in no way capable of performing at that level. A really good semi pro club might be the best for some.

All we are doing though are listing clubs that hit huge difficulties when in SL and added little to the comp. Bradford is probably the outlier in the historic value they brought, but that isn't the club that exists now, and it's not relegation that has done that. 

I don't think P&R is the optimal solution for RL, but I see little evidence that it is so catastrophic that most clubs don't recover from it as you claimed. 

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

All we are doing though are listing clubs that hit huge difficulties when in SL and added little to the comp. Bradford is probably the outlier in the historic value they brought, but that isn't the club that exists now, and it's not relegation that has done that. 

I don't think P&R is the optimal solution for RL, but I see little evidence that it is so catastrophic that most clubs don't recover from it as you claimed. 

No Dave, I've listed the 5 clubs that have gone down since Relegation was reintroduced and demonstrated their financial woes following that. Can it be any clearer?

If Wakefield or Cas went down it would be catastrophic to their future plans. Salford may only just survive because of the shoestring they are currently ran on. It isn't clear whether Catalans would continue to exist in the Championship. The rest of Super League would struggle too. 

How historic do you want to go with Bradford. 2 years before they went down (closest I could find on a quick search) they averaged 12,800 odd. That is still bigger than St Helens now I believe, who themselves are 3rd in the average attendances. Widnes weren't exactly small either. 

Relegation helped neither these clubs, nor rugby league in most of these areas particularly imo.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

No Dave, I've listed the 5 clubs that have gone down since Relegation was reintroduced and demonstrated their financial woes following that. Can it be any clearer?

If Wakefield or Cas went down it would be catastrophic to their future plans. Salford may only just survive because of the shoestring they are currently ran on. It isn't clear whether Catalans would continue to exist in the Championship. The rest of Super League would struggle too. 

How historic do you want to go with Bradford. 2 years before they went down (closest I could find on a quick search) they averaged 12,800 odd. That is still bigger than St Helens now I believe, who themselves are 3rd in the average attendances. Widnes weren't exactly small either. 

Relegation helped neither these clubs, nor rugby league in most of these areas particularly imo.

Very happy to disagree with your view here that relegated clubs do not recover from it. 

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Very happy to disagree with your view here that relegated clubs do not recover from it. 

You may have to find out first hand very soon

[Dave T]

16 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

You may have to find out first hand very soon

Very close to being the first on my ignore list there...... 

[Tommygilf]

50 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Very close to being the first on my ignore list there...... 

Sorry, that was too far. The excitement of winning games has got to this rhinos fan

[Oxford]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

Hull, Salford, Hull KR, Wakefield, Cas

It should be said that those that survived the R in P&R often did by having investment and or staying full time in a part time League!

It were magic!

[DEANO]

Take away promotion and you damage every club outside sl. Having nothing to play for makes competitions pointless 

[Anita Bath]

3 hours ago, DEANO said:

Take away promotion and you damage every club outside sl. Having nothing to play for makes competitions pointless 

Try telling Rohan Smith that. It was a day to remember when he took norths to their first Queensland Cup title in donkeys years. Amazing scenes and probably could not be Beat by anything he achieves at Leed

 

its simply a mindset whether you like P&R or are happy with tiered championships.

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Try telling Rohan Smith that. It was a day to remember when he took norths to their first Queensland Cup title in donkeys years. Amazing scenes and probably could not be Beat by anything he achieves at Leed

 

its simply a mindset whether you like P&R or are happy with tiered championships.

Maybe he should get a job at a club pushing for promotion , then he can compare the two ?

[steve oates]

13 hours ago, Dave T said:

Very happy to disagree with your view here that relegated clubs do not recover from it. 

Some do, like those with a very persistent and wealthy club owner example being Leigh.

Some don't like those without a wealthy and persistent club owner like Widnes.

P&R isn't a problem at all, it's highly exciting..........

Just like we need more players to play the game, we need more rich owners to chuck their money away at it...

[Dave T]

37 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Some do, like those with a very persistent and wealthy club owner example being Leigh.

Some don't like those without a wealthy and persistent club owner like Widnes.

P&R isn't a problem at all, it's highly exciting..........

Just like we need more players to play the game, we need more rich owners to chuck their money away at it...

I think it's the whole 'catastrophic and clubs never recover' point I disagree with. Widnes are still going, playing Rugby like a Rugby club does. Recovery doesn't mean they go back to being like they were in 1989.

We aren't gonna have 36 large clubs, people move up and down the ladder, Widnes have dropped down the ladder because that is where they are as a club. Somebody else has replaced them higher up that ladder.