This Promotion/Relegation is a Farce

[Man of Kent]

17 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think maybe the objective is how we get 12+ strong teams, maybe geographical focus is a secondary consideration - although saturation may suggest that focusing on these areas is the way of getting 12+ big clubs. 

Yes.

As mentioned before, IMG is said to keen on growing the international game and having clubs in Ireland, Scotland and Wales would strengthen it. It’s not hard to imagine heritage players turning out for these clubs. 

From a commercial POV, IMG’s thinking seems to be focused on on TV rights. There may be existing deals but their value is unknown and almost certainly minimal. 

We know France has been a problem but maybe with an enhanced offer it will bring in actual money - even if initially packaged up by IMG with other sports. 

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Yes.

As mentioned before, IMG is said to keen on growing the international game and having clubs in Ireland, Scotland and Wales would strengthen it. It’s not hard to imagine heritage players turning out for these clubs. 

From a commercial POV, IMG’s thinking seems to be focused on on TV rights. There may be existing deals but their value is unknown and almost certainly minimal. 

We know France has been a problem but maybe with an enhanced offer it will bring in actual money - even if initially packaged up by IMG with other sports. 

My personal opinion here is that with a 12y partnership they would be looking at things with far quicker returns than those places. France feels like the best opportunity and the UK TV deal, and then strengthening top class international events. 

Like I say, getting 12+ 10k crowd sized clubs is a good aim, but I think that doesn't matter where it is - we should go with the easiest place to deliver them. 

The places mentioned have modest RU clubs, I'm not sure we will build bigger RL clubs than them, in the short term at least. 

[sweaty craiq]

To grow a business you must first accept your strengths and weaknesses, each provide threats and opportunities. You focus on your strengths and opportunities - starting with your low hanging fruit and the firm knowledge that your existing customers are your best ones.

We have to be realistic with goals - we will not attract the money the Premier League does but is a goal of 5-10% achievable, 5% is £75m pa and that figure would be the catalyst to transform our sport yet only about a third of the Aus deals - hopefully a FTA proper contract can help.

We should never forget 16m people live in the North of England, a huge number of whom will have had some contact or knowledge of RL. Many Northern folk migrate South for opportunity, many RU supporting Welshmen are aware of RL add in S. France and you are looking at your low hanging fruit for Stage 1

[Toby Chopra]

8 hours ago, Niels said:

I watched an interview with a horse racing executive today about attendances. His strategy was to get out there and to get different groups interested. Bring the product to them. So they were offering free stable tours to young groups of people. Involving minority groups in the sport.  He stressed they would have to do this for years to sustain it. 

Of course they have the horses which attract young people initially.

A really interesting comparison, thanks. We're not the only sport struggling with this challenge, but as the executive says, there's no quick fix. 

[Toby Chopra]

7 hours ago, Dave T said:

My personal opinion here is that with a 12y partnership they would be looking at things with far quicker returns than those places. France feels like the best opportunity and the UK TV deal, and then strengthening top class international events. 

Like I say, getting 12+ 10k crowd sized clubs is a good aim, but I think that doesn't matter where it is - we should go with the easiest place to deliver them. 

The places mentioned have modest RU clubs, I'm not sure we will build bigger RL clubs than them, in the short term at least. 

Completely agree. 

There are plenty of candidates in the existing structure who could target that 10k goal if the backing and intention was there, some of whom already have a stadium. 

I think all the talk about Wales, Scotland and Ireland (pop 15m) is a distraction from doing the hard work in England (pop 55m). 

[Tommygilf]

10 hours ago, Dave T said:

I suppose the question that needs answering is would there be any real commercial value in having a Scottish, Irish and Welsh team in the league?

Even if we got a relatively decent presence in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Dublin, I wonder whether that would really move the dial on commercial value. 

It certainly feels like the right thing to do instinctively, but we do already have TV deals in these territories anyway. 

I think maybe the objective is how we get 12+ strong teams, maybe geographical focus is a secondary consideration - although saturation may suggest that focusing on these areas is the way of getting 12+ big clubs. 

I think perception is a big thing at play here too Dave, and accessibility is a part of that.

[Man of Kent]

9 hours ago, Dave T said:

My personal opinion here is that with a 12y partnership they would be looking at things with far quicker returns than those places. France feels like the best opportunity and the UK TV deal, and then strengthening top class international events. 

Like I say, getting 12+ 10k crowd sized clubs is a good aim, but I think that doesn't matter where it is - we should go with the easiest place to deliver them. 

The low hanging fruit is the international game (club/country). All the pieces exist, they just need to be put together. Organisation, in essence. 

It would be great to have 10k crowds but we get too hung up on crowds. TV rights are more important. Ask the Aussies. 

[Dave T]

32 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think perception is a big thing at play here too Dave, and accessibility is a part of that.

Yep, I agree, and that is where these things can often become difficult to quantify and get buy in. 

In my day job, it can sometimes be difficult to justify certain changes financially, but they are just the right thing to do, but when we are potentially talking huge amounts of money to deliver it becomes challenging. 

Perception works both ways as well here, we need to be careful of reckless top down expansion that just fails again. We need to put the right framework in place to have the best chance of success. 

I'm always on board with geographical expansion, but I just wonder whether getting a 10k club (a basic measure of a big club) in Scotland would be more valuable to the game than a 10k club in say, Newcastle. 

Catalans helps the image of SL greatly imo, they tick very many boxes, but we've still struggled to monetise their presence. 

A realistic aim should be to put on good looking TV events every weekend - at the moment we have too many events that look uninteresting. 

[Dave T]

35 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

The low hanging fruit is the international game (club/country). All the pieces exist, they just need to be put together. Organisation, in essence. 

It would be great to have 10k crowds but we get too hung up on crowds. TV rights are more important. Ask the Aussies. 

That does bring us back to the S8's though that brought us record investment from Sky but was scrapped because the likes of Cas complained that the crowd for the 2nd game against Saints was down by 1k for example. 

There is a balance to be had here. I don't think there is much that suggests a team in Scotland and Wales brings TV value, although there is maybe a common sense approach that says wider geographical footprint should lead to higher figures, but I'm not sure that translates into extra millions. 

The point about crowds is that they bring in more money, present a more vibrant comp and allow for more competitive clubs to deliver a better TV product for Sky to want to buy. 

Internationals - absolutely agree, but tbh I think IMG will focus on the Southern Hemisphere teams here, although I do think France will remain a project here. 

[Scubby]

15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yep, I agree, and that is where these things can often become difficult to quantify and get buy in. 

In my day job, it can sometimes be difficult to justify certain changes financially, but they are just the right thing to do, but when we are potentially talking huge amounts of money to deliver it becomes challenging. 

Perception works both ways as well here, we need to be careful of reckless top down expansion that just fails again. We need to put the right framework in place to have the best chance of success. 

I'm always on board with geographical expansion, but I just wonder whether getting a 10k club (a basic measure of a big club) in Scotland would be more valuable to the game than a 10k club in say, Newcastle. 

Catalans helps the image of SL greatly imo, they tick very many boxes, but we've still struggled to monetise their presence. 

A realistic aim should be to put on good looking TV events every weekend - at the moment we have too many events that look uninteresting. 

You've got a job in the day time? I thought you were a man of leisure?

[Man of Kent]

32 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Internationals - absolutely agree, but tbh I think IMG will focus on the Southern Hemisphere teams here, although I do think France will remain a project here. 

Not sure. I imagine IMG will be thinking about how to capitalise on relatively strong Irish and French teams, with perhaps Scotland and Wales forming a five nation comp with England, and/or perhaps a wider European comp with emerging nations.   

[Toby Chopra]

11 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Not sure. I imagine IMG will be thinking about how to capitalise on relatively strong Irish and French teams, with perhaps Scotland and Wales forming a five nation comp with England, and/or perhaps a wider European comp with emerging nations.   

With the greatest respect I doubt IMG is considering that at all. It would take way longer than 12 years and tens of millions of pounds to attempt, with no obvious gap in the market for it. IMG would know this as well as anyone.

We'd all love Northern Hemisphere rugby league to be on the verge of that, but it's so far from where we're at it's not a useful starting point.

We need to strengthen the standards, revenues and presentation of our existing flagship competition and hopefully generate increased revenues to improve all part of the game. And there are untapped revenues much closer to home that we should be focussing on before we start attempting international flights of fancy. 

Long term - very long term - we'd love to see a more international profile in the NH - but it's not something we can just wish, or remotely spend, into existence. I'm starting to feel that we start bandying these locations around because we've just given up trying to promote rugby league at home 

[Man of Kent]

3 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

With the greatest respect I doubt IMG is considering that at all. It would take way longer than 12 years and tens of millions of pounds to attempt, with no obvious gap in the market for it. IMG would know this as well as anyone.

We'd all love Northern Hemisphere rugby league to be on the verge of that, but it's so far from where we're at it's not a useful starting point.

We need to strengthen the standards, revenues and presentation of our existing flagship competition and hopefully generate increased revenues to improve all part of the game. And there are untapped revenues much closer to home that we should be focussing on before we start attempting international flights of fancy. 

Long term - very long term - we'd love to see a more international profile in the NH - but it's not something we can just wish, or remotely spend, into existence. I'm starting to feel that we start bandying these locations around because we've just given up trying to promote rugby league at home 

Sometimes we don’t see the wood for the trees. There’s a World Cup this autumn that will be huge for British RL across the three comps. Then there’s a World Cup in 2025 in France.

But, from what I can find, there is literally nothing in the European international calendar in between World Cups. Not men’s, nor women’s, nor wheelchair RL. This is the lowest hanging fruit.

[Oxford]

When I was living in France my neighbour/friend and I went to see Carcassonne. He was an arrmchair K&C man. His attitudes had been shaped by one being in the limelight and the other being at best swept under the carpet for the whole of his life. He started telling me why he preferred yoonion during the match and it was all about how they play the same teams over and over again.  There were other factors but they had much the same origin and basis. I still use him as the barometer of the market. This was especially because he lived in an essentially treiziste area, he'd played it when young and many of his potes were dyed in the wool Treizistes.

How would we sell whatever product we have to someone who could drive down the road to see a match but had preconcieved ideas about how they saw the game?

My brother is another example League at school, yoonion after that, turns up at Old Trafford for the GF more or less every year but never tires of telling me how much better Vichy is, and would never go down the street for an SL match.

Where is the marketing inroad there?

I use these two examples because they share closeness to the heartland and yet it might as well be light years for all negativity and dismissiveness that made them so alike.

I tend to use them as models for where RL finds itself and the lengths needed to attract mindsets like theirs. And how many people are there rich enough to buy into SL clubs, who see the point, who are motivated to do so and whose attitudes are not already shaped in one direction?

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Oxford

[Toby Chopra]

28 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Sometimes we don’t see the wood for the trees. There’s a World Cup this autumn that will be huge for British RL across the three comps. Then there’s a World Cup in 2025 in France.

But, from what I can find, there is literally nothing in the European international calendar in between World Cups. Not men’s, nor women’s, nor wheelchair RL. This is the lowest hanging fruit.

I'm on board with that, and maybe IMG would be too. But those things are very different to setting up Superleague sides in Dublin and Glasgow.  Sometimes I think it gets conflated 

[Oxford]

45 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

We need to strengthen the standards

I find this the hardest thing to achieve of them all.

The quality of a league should be that at any given season any team can win the comp. This used to said of the NRL. It certainly isn't true of SL. If we can only argue for inequality on the basis that lower teams have to try harder there is little point in bothering cos that is simply the case for keeping things as they are which is great for some.

[Dave T]

46 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Sometimes we don’t see the wood for the trees. There’s a World Cup this autumn that will be huge for British RL across the three comps. Then there’s a World Cup in 2025 in France.

But, from what I can find, there is literally nothing in the European international calendar in between World Cups. Not men’s, nor women’s, nor wheelchair RL. This is the lowest hanging fruit.

Is it though? There is zero commercial value in that. 

Now, I agree with you we should be doing it, and it's disgraceful that we have no plan, but the commercial opportunity looks miniscule and probably very, very long term. But, the sooner we start, the sooner we get there. 

So I agree we should do it, but not that it is low hanging fruit at all. 

[Man of Kent]

8 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I'm on board with that, and maybe IMG would be too. But those things are very different to setting up Superleague sides in Dublin and Glasgow.  Sometimes I think it gets conflated 

Dublin wouldn't be Day 1, no, yet it appears they are thinking bigger and more strategically than the usual Sky TV negotiations and which M62 clubs should be in Super League. 

[Man of Kent]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Is it though? There is zero commercial value in that. 

Now, I agree with you we should be doing it, and it's disgraceful that we have no plan, but the commercial opportunity looks miniscule and probably very, very long term. But, the sooner we start, the sooner we get there. 

So I agree we should do it, but not that it is low hanging fruit at all. 

I call it the lowest hanging fruit because it's just an organisational effort with negligible cost. The value is in the TV content.  

[Dave T]

Just now, Man of Kent said:

I call it the lowest hanging fruit because it's just an organisational effort with negligible cost. The value is in the TV content.  

Yes, agree with that, I think the risk is low, I just don't think the benefits are anything close to short term. 

[gingerjon]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yes, agree with that, I think the risk is low, I just don't think the benefits are anything close to short term. 

We're not even sure if France v Wales has a UK TV broadcast partner.

That's the starting point we're at when it comes to interest in international rugby league in 2022.

We're relying an awful lot on the World Cup to change that.

[Man of Kent]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

We're not even sure if France v Wales has a UK TV broadcast partner.

That's the starting point we're at when it comes to interest in international rugby league in 2022.

Bein are showing it, apparently, which is encouraging.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

Bein are showing it, apparently, which is encouraging.

Yes, it should follow that it could find a UK partner. It's the sort of thing that S4C are pretty good at snapping up. Hopefully someone will.

[Saint Toppy]

24 minutes ago, Oxford said:

The quality of a league should be that at any given season any team can win the comp. This used to said of the NRL. It certainly isn't true of SL. If we can only argue for inequality on the basis that lower teams have to try harder there is little point in bothering cos that is simply the case for keeping things as they are which is great for some.

So what you actually saying you want the whole league to 'level down' to the worst teams so they have an equal chance of winning the title.

Here's a novel idea - why don't the worst teams in the league improve themselves to the level of those clubs who do put themselves in with a chance of winning the title each year. !!!

[Damien]

18 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

We're not even sure if France v Wales has a UK TV broadcast partner.

That's the starting point we're at when it comes to interest in international rugby league in 2022.

We're relying an awful lot on the World Cup to change that.

Indeed. If we are to build on the World Cup we need to know what is going on next year to sell to fans, sponsors and TV companies. If ever there is a time we can elevate the status of internationals its next year off the back of games played in big stadiums on national TV. For all the talk about building on the World Cup I'm not sure if anything is actually in place to do that.