Waterhead social media

[gingerjon]

24 minutes ago, RP London said:

I see where you are coming from but that is not equality... If you are looking for a deaf person, cast a deaf person, if you are looking for a blackman cast a blackman not a white man dressed up. If the role does not define the gender, colour, ethnicity etc then it should be equal yes, but if it defines the person as Black then the actor should be Black not a white man dressed up as a Blackman. 

 

As recently as THREE DAYS AGO, one of this country's leading drama schools had to apologise for its treatment of non-white students in the recent past (up to a few years ago) and, two years ago, the one that everyone has heard of had to admit its current arrangements were racist.

The people who run those schools and teach at them are the writers, producers and directors in mainstream media here and around the world.

[gingerjon]

30 minutes ago, Damien said:

An under 7s game, jesus wept.

On Waterhead's side what that one.

No idea why you'd report an Under 7s match like that.

[David Shepherd]

34 minutes ago, RP London said:

I see where you are coming from but that is not equality... If you are looking for a deaf person, cast a deaf person, if you are looking for a blackman cast a blackman not a white man dressed up. If the role does not define the gender, colour, ethnicity etc then it should be equal yes, but if it defines the person as Black then the actor should be Black not a white man dressed up as a Blackman. 

 

I get that, however we've had a black woman playing Ann Boleyn as an example. Why was that OK, but someone like Justin Trudeau blacking up when attending an Arabian themed fancy dress party causes outrage?

I'm not saying either is the right thing to do, but double standards are one of my massive bug bears.

If it's only bad when a white man does it, that's still racist.  

[Live after death]

2 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

You'd have an argument if there was still that kind of discrimination in the industry.

Thankfully there isn't and actors of all ethnicities enjoy equal treatment.

We live in 2022, not 1952. Why do we constantly need to invoke past injustices to make people not even born when they happened victims and villains?

Really, plenty if recent examples of “whitewashed” casting and some films due to come out criticised over there mis placed casting, Exodus Gods of Egypt mostly white Europeans cast playing Middle Eastern/Egyptians, Gal Godot cast as Cleopatra. Plus white meltdown when someone dates suggest a Black Hames Bond or Dr who

 

sorry equal treatment has come a long way buts its still a long way to go, your way off the mark still.

[Live after death]

17 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

I get that, however we've had a black woman playing Ann Boleyn as an example. Why was that OK, but someone like Justin Trudeau blacking up when attending an Arabian themed fancy dress party causes outrage?

I'm not saying either is the right thing to do, but double standards are one of my massive bug bears.

If it's only bad when a white man does it, that's still racist.  

Wow you really  are just looking like an apologist now, if you really cannot see the difference you are clearly part of the problem. And you have added some “whatsaboutary”  as a defence as well, its this type of ignorance that means we pretty much have to have this zero tolerance approach to socially sensitive issues. 
this is not meant to stoke the fire, but maybe go away and think about what your saying, your Justin Trudeau, firstly  Arabs aren’t really black and the fact people thought Black africans and arabs were the same, so just for that blacking up as a “black arab” as you put it is offensive. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Live after death

[David Shepherd]

13 minutes ago, Live after death said:

Wow you really  are just looking like an apologist now, if you really cannot see the difference you are clearly part of the problem. 

I'm not sure how you divine that from what I wrote.

[ATLANTISMAN]

Way back one of my first jobs was as marketing manager at a major record company BC Charisma one of the labels was the famous Jamaican reggae label Trojan.

Anyway to cut a long story short after 5/6 months working on the Mooncrest Label (Nazareth/Steeleye Span etc) they moved me to Trojan there i met dozens of Jamaican guys many whom became friends for life apart from a couple who were a bit anti white (Remember it was the seventies and the police weren't helping matters by arresting a poor black guy all the time just to keep the crime figures looking good along with any Irish guy who was 100 miles away from a bombing etc etc) anyway in the end they also become good mates, that 3 year experience was really good for me I've never had any racist feelings in my life:) Thank goodness.

Very saddened when Toots of the Maytals  died last year all 3 of the main artists i worked with have now all passed away the other 2 being Ken Boothe and John Holt (I still have the silver disc for Kens version of everything i own which spent 3 weeks at No 1) over 750000 copies sold those were the days:)

Very proud that RL is such an inclusive sport.

 

Paul

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by ATLANTISMAN

[David Shepherd]

21 minutes ago, Live after death said:

Really, plenty if recent examples of “whitewashed” casting and some films due to come out criticised over there mis placed casting, Exodus Gods of Egypt mostly white Europeans cast playing Middle Eastern/Egyptians, Gal Godot cast as Cleopatra. Plus white meltdown when someone dates suggest a Black Hames Bond or Dr who

 

sorry equal treatment has come a long way buts its still a long way to go, your way off the mark still.

James Bond and Doctor Who are fictional characters. While bond is traditionally a white male, the original author is long dead and he's fair game to be played by anyone. Doctor Who, as a shapeshifting alien could be a blob of green goo if he/she wanted. 

Gal Godot is from the country next door to Egypt. So hardly a wildly different ethnicity.  Do I detect a hint of anti-Semitism in your highlighting her?

See how this works?

Edited June 14, 2022 by David Shepherd

[RP London]

27 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

I get that, however we've had a black woman playing Ann Boleyn as an example. Why was that OK, but someone like Justin Trudeau blacking up when attending an Arabian themed fancy dress party causes outrage?

I'm not saying either is the right thing to do, but double standards are one of my massive bug bears.

If it's only bad when a white man does it, that's still racist.  

my god thats not even close to the same thing!!

Did she "white up"?

Its one thing having an issue with a black woman being cast as someone who was white in a historical drama, and honestly I would agree that that is not correct as someone very keen on history and with a history degree. However, that is very very different to a white man being cast as a black man and blacking up!

 

Outside of this the argument "it is only bad when a white man does it" is also a phrase I don't like.. the reason is because it was predominantly the white man that historically oppressed the ethnic minorities as the dominant imperialists. Yes it is worse when the white man does it and that is the way it is, history sadly is not on our side on that one.

 

[David Shepherd]

5 minutes ago, RP London said:

my god thats not even close to the same thing!!

Did she "white up"?

Its one thing having an issue with a black woman being cast as someone who was white in a historical drama, and honestly I would agree that that is not correct as someone very keen on history and with a history degree. However, that is very very different to a white man being cast as a black man and blacking up!

 

Outside of this the argument "it is only bad when a white man does it" is also a phrase I don't like.. the reason is because it was predominantly the white man that historically oppressed the ethnic minorities as the dominant imperialists. Yes it is worse when the white man does it and that is the way it is, history sadly is not on our side on that one.

 

You're right, historically. Too many people live in the past.

I could moan on about how my life has been blighted by my family being robbed, beaten and raped by first the bolsheviks and then the Nazis, but I don't because my eyes are in the front of my head and the past is very firmly behind me.

[Tommygilf]

37 minutes ago, Live after death said:

 Gal Godot cast as Cleopatra. 

That one was silly though. An israeli playing a Greek woman wasn't what the complaints were about because the complaints were stupid.

[Impartial Observer]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

On Waterhead's side what that one.

No idea why you'd report an Under 7s match like that.

I thought all games to U11 were 'non competitve' and scores not recorded

[Dave T]

Phew. Always relieved to see somebody standing up for the poor white man, telling the oppressed to move on. 

[RP London]

19 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

You're right, historically. Too many people live in the past.

I could moan on about how my life has been blighted by my family being robbed, beaten and raped by first the bolsheviks and then the Nazis, but I don't because my eyes are in the front of my head and the past is very firmly behind me.

No... thats your personal experience and that is fine.. but you cannot cannot tell people that their experience (of something quite different) is the same as yours... are the Germans and the Russians still persecuting you? 

As for the "too many people live in the past" comment; The ethinc minorities are still having issues today, racism is still rife, equality is not even close... to then see the people who are causing much of that (whites) dressing as you and changing their skin colour (for giggles and stuff, mostly to put you down and take the mick out of your culture) and telling you to "get over it" (I know that is not the wording you have used) is disgraceful!! 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by RP London

[Spidey]

3 minutes ago, Impartial Observer said:

I thought all games to U11 were 'non competitve' and scores not recorded

Scores are recorded so they can assess strengths and move between playing groups but no league points awarded

They just used to do 8-7 as in number of tries scored (no conversions taken) but now they’re being asked to multiply by 4 to show points. I find that a bit strange and no need

[Live after death]

29 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

James Bond and Doctor Who are fictional characters. While bond is traditionally a white male, the original author is long dead and he's fair game to be played by anyone. Doctor Who, as a shapeshifting alien could be a blob of green goo if he/she wanted. 

Gal Godot is from the country next door to Egypt. So hardly a wildly different ethnicity.  Do I detect a hint of anti-Semitism in your highlighting her?

See how this works?

So you think Israeli jews and arabs are the same ethnicity, what about Japanese playing  Chinese they all look the same anyway. And Maybe get ricky Gervais to do a Mickey Rooney and Jap up
 

Cleopatra should only be played by a Macedonian decent if the Ptolemy line. 
 

you are digging such a big hole a singularity may occur. Yes you are part  of the problem yes you are ignorant. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Live after death

[JohnM]

34 minutes ago, Live after death said:

Wow you really  are just looking like an apologist now, if you really cannot see the difference you are clearly part of the problem. And you have added some “whatsaboutary”  as a defence as well, its this type of ignorance that means we pretty much have to have this zero tolerance approach to socially sensitive issues. 
this is not meant to stoke the fire, but maybe go away and think about what your saying, your Justin Trudeau, firstly  Arabs aren’t really black and the fact people thought Black africans and arabs were the same, so just for that blacking up as a “black arab” as you put it is offensive. 

So you are calling him racist? That's certainly the implication. Why not just say it? 

Sir Lenny, always open and honest and careful in his choice of words, may well have a point: "British actor Sir Lenny Henry has questioned the lack of diversity in audiences at British festivals including Glastonbury, remarking that he is 'interested' and 'always surprised' by the apparent absence of black and Asian faces in the crowds."

In any case, its not about "whataboutery" either. That's just a misplaced attempt to close down the discussion. Its about the bigger picture of prejudice, discrimination, abuse, offence etc  by one group  against another and that is not all one sided, whatever the "we are all guilty" claque promote.

 

 

 

[Dunbar]

Just checking, while we are all discussing the rights and wrongs of Twitter posts from an amateur Rugby League team, and before we celebrate how inclusive the sport is...

What was the outcome of the root and branch investigation that the RFL undertook after Vinny Finigan, Ashton Golding, Michael Lawrence and Jordan Turner shared their experiences of racism in the game a few years ago?

[Live after death]

22 minutes ago, JohnM said:

So you are calling him racist? That's certainly the implication. Why not just say it? 

Sir Lenny, always open and honest and careful in his choice of words, may well have a point: "British actor Sir Lenny Henry has questioned the lack of diversity in audiences at British festivals including Glastonbury, remarking that he is 'interested' and 'always surprised' by the apparent absence of black and Asian faces in the crowds."

In any case, its not about "whataboutery" either. That's just a misplaced attempt to close down the discussion. Its about the bigger picture of prejudice, discrimination, abuse, offence etc  by one group  against another and that is not all one sided, whatever the "we are all guilty" claque promote.

 

 

 

I haven’t called him racist because he not said anything to suggest he us, you gave brought that up,  i am right though that he is an apologist for problematic attitudes and behaviours. And he has used Whataboutery  clearly in his argument, its ok for someone to black up because a black actress played a white person, thats whataboutery.

[Live after death]

32 minutes ago, JohnM said:

So you are calling him racist? That's certainly the implication. Why not just say it? 

Sir Lenny, always open and honest and careful in his choice of words, may well have a point: "British actor Sir Lenny Henry has questioned the lack of diversity in audiences at British festivals including Glastonbury, remarking that he is 'interested' and 'always surprised' by the apparent absence of black and Asian faces in the crowds."

In any case, its not about "whataboutery" either. That's just a misplaced attempt to close down the discussion. Its about the bigger picture of prejudice, discrimination, abuse, offence etc  by one group  against another and that is not all one sided, whatever the "we are all guilty" claque promote.

 

 

 

Speaking off lenny Henry he once used prosthetics and make up to dress up as his comedy hero Steve Martin.

 

he also gad one major film role in a long forgotten film, the synopsis was ( a bit Tootsie) he played a black  actor over looked for the part of othello for a white actor,  who then whited up got the tole and then had to black up over his white up to play the part.  Fine satire if not a poorly executed and forgotten film

Edited June 14, 2022 by Live after death

[JohnM]

15 hours ago, Live after death said:

I haven’t called him racist because he not said anything to suggest he us, you gave brought that up,  i am right though that he is an apologist for problematic attitudes and behaviours. And he has used Whataboutery  clearly in his argument, its ok for someone to black up because a black actress played a white person, thats whataboutery.

No its not. It's equivalence. It's about equity of offence. It's about "we are all guilty" I realise the forum has a strong "right-on woke Guardianista" tendency but that shortcoming is normally confined to the politics sub forum. It seems to have oozed out to contaminate this thread which should be about the stupidity and insensitivity of Waterhead.

Edited June 15, 2022 by JohnM

[Dunbar]

When a number of black players shared their experiences of racism in 2020, this was the response from the RFL.

"It's a thought-provoking piece [the video], and we thank Sky and the three players - Ashton, Michael and Jordan - for it," the RFL said.

"All our responses in recent weeks and months have attempted to strike a balance - to reaffirm Rugby League's desire to play its part in this conversation, and our abhorrence of racism or prejudice in any form - while acknowledging that as a sport we have work to do, and that actions must speak louder than words."

I will tell you now, if the sport really wanted to do something positive then this would have been the trigger for a full investigation and review and those players would have been front and centre of that review and they would have been properly listened to and their recommendations for improvement implemented.

It feels to me that we do the bare minimum as a sport.  We announce investigations when incidents reach the press so can't be avoided but our culture is not addressed.

I have no problem with gestures (taking the knee) and they can be powerful.  It certainly was powerful when Colin Kaepernick did it as it took personal bravery and integrity. 

But gestures without action are meaningless.  At best, they are just well meaning but empty.  At worst, they are an excuse to do nothing as we can say "look, we take the knee before every game".

I want to see more from our sport and this starts with the leadership. 

[M j M]

Two posts above is what happens when someone thinks "woke" is an insult.

[RP London]

21 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

When a number of black players shared their experiences of racism in 2020, this was the response from the RFL.

"It's a thought-provoking piece [the video], and we thank Sky and the three players - Ashton, Michael and Jordan - for it," the RFL said.

"All our responses in recent weeks and months have attempted to strike a balance - to reaffirm Rugby League's desire to play its part in this conversation, and our abhorrence of racism or prejudice in any form - while acknowledging that as a sport we have work to do, and that actions must speak louder than words."

I will tell you now, if the sport really wanted to do something positive then this would have been the trigger for a full investigation and review and those players would have been front and centre of that review and they would have been properly listened to and their recommendations for improvement implemented.

It feels to me that we do the bare minimum as a sport.  We announce investigations when incidents reach the press so can't be avoided but our culture is not addressed.

I have no problem with gestures (taking the knee) and they can be powerful.  It certainly was powerful when Colin Kaepernick did it as it took personal bravery and integrity. 

But gestures without action are meaningless.  At best, they are just well meaning but empty.  At worst, they are an excuse to do nothing as we can say "look, we take the knee before every game".

I want to see more from our sport and this starts with the leadership. 

It is truly quite shocking that so little has been heard of since. Yes actions speak louder than words but what actions have their been?

 

[RP London]

2 hours ago, JohnM said:

No its not. It's equivalence. It's about equity of offence. It's about "we are all guilty" I realise the forum has a strong "right-on woke Guardianista" tendency but that shortcoming is normally confined to the politics sub forum. It seems to have oozed out to contaminate this thread which should be about the stupidity and insensitivity of Waterhead.

Its not a equivalent though even on the base level (so without taking in the history of why blacking up is offensive) the black actress was black playing a, historically, white person, when actors black up they are white actors trying to be black. It is really very different and frankly a daft comparison. 

Why can people not realise that one fight does not mean the other fights dont matter and only an insane person would fight battles on multiple fronts. Yes parts of white people should be played by white people (and if historically they were white they should be played by a white person IMHO) and black parts should be played by black people etc... that is very true... however, can we not all agree that blacking up is offensive to black people and therefore it is just common decency that we stop doing it? Its a really quite quick fix, and simple.. then we can get on with fighting the other battles for equality!

The Black Lives Matter movement never had the word "only" in the title but people seemed to think it was and get really hung up on the fact that "all lives matter".. of course they do but no one is saying they dont. In the same way as no country should be subjected to invasion from another for no reason whatsoever (thats a given isnt it?) but we all realise that right now it may be an idea to help Ukraine rather than some made up possible invasion that isnt happening yet.

Blacking up is wrong... it doesnt matter what else in the world is unfair or what else we should be solving.. blacking up is wrong.. its offensive and its childish (and that may be an insult to many kids).. its quite simple and its quite simple to solve.. it also doesnt take away resources from solving other issues... just stop doing it ffs!