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Pacific Tests - June 25th


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8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The last couple of series vs the Kiwis have had really improved crowds. 

2018 (76k)

2015 (92k)

Itd be interesting to understand how the costs are covered, because we have to work on an assumption that due to the lower profile of say Tonga or Samoa or Fiji that commercial income would be lower, crowds would be lower, and TV income would be lower. Whether it would still be high enough to cover costs is probably the key question. 

I'd love it to be able to happen, from a personal point of view I have a great deal of desire to watch us playing these nations at home outside of world cups. I think your approach of a 4N with NZ or Oz plus France and a 2nd SH nation is the way to go, as it gives sponsors and broadcasters the benefit of a top nation. I think it has the benefit over the old 4N in that by alternating the teams we have over it keeps it fresh. 

EG. 1 year we could have Eng, Fra, NZ, Tonga, the next time could be Eng, Fra, Aus and PNG. 

The point was these things can easily be profitable on circa 50k crowds and have been. I think Tonga would get comparable crowds to NZ.

Based on what I have seen at internationals I'm really dubious about this TV income and commercial income. I'm not sure if TV companies, i.e the BBC, are paying any more for a test series against NZ compared to Tonga when viewing figures aren't going to be noticeably different (in my opinion). How much do the BBC pay anyway? 

Commercial income is poor at RL events and we have barely scatched the surface, again I don't see how there can be a huge difference. 

I'm not convinced we are talking about big figures here that we wouldn't get anyway.

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9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It's how it should be. These WC's are no longer processions for nations. 

I totally agree but luck could've landed you a quarter against Lebanon/Ireland/Jamaica (As Australia will), instead England have to go PNG/Tonga (in either order) in consecutive matches before a potential final against Aus/NZ in all likelihood.

One of the harder runs of all time I would imagine so If you win the cup it'll be very well earned.

 

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I think Turuva announced himself today as an emerging star. Up there as best on ground, although I would have given the MOTM to the outstanding Kyle Laybutt.

Laybutt and Lam partnered beautifully in controlling that game. Add in the physicality and rawness of their play and you have a football team that is wonderfully fun and exciting to watch.

This is the most I have enjoyed an international in several years - probably since PNG ran over the top of GB a few years ago. This game is a lovely example of what the Kumuls have to offer to RL, and can sit alongside that famous victory over the Lions.

Something extra special about that bright yellow and red, and the ferocity that they bring to bear.

A wonderful close to an absorbing and hugely enjoyable test match Saturday!

Bring on the World Cup!

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5 minutes ago, Damien said:

The point was these things can easily be profitable on circa 50k crowds and have been. I think Tonga would get comparable crowds to NZ.

Based on what I have seen at internationals I'm really dubious about this TV income and commercial income. I'm not sure if TV companies, i.e the BBC, are paying any more for a test series against NZ compared to Tonga when viewing figures aren't going to be noticeably different (in my opinion). How much do the BBC pay anyway? 

Commercial income is poor at RL events and we have barely scatched the surface, again I don't see how there can be a huge difference. 

I'm not convinced we are talking about big figures here that we wouldn't get anyway.

I hope that is the case, and we have seen that the BBC are happy to show GB v Tonga and PNG for example (although it did come with NZ bolted on). 

I do think there is a difference - we do seem to get some cross subsidisation of viewers when on the BBC, the numbers are far greater than standard RL fans numbers, and NZ and Australia are far bigger draws in a general 'Rugby' sense than Tonga and Fiji in the UK. 

But I think your point about our commercial income etc. being low is a good one and I think the low starting base on stuff like this, while being really poor, means that a change in approach isn't exactly going to cost us millions. 

But as we saw this weekend, Tonga were sponsored by a local plumbing firm, so it is a challenge, but shouldn't be impossible to overcome. 

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14 minutes ago, UTK said:

I totally agree but luck could've landed you a quarter against Lebanon/Ireland/Jamaica (As Australia will), instead England have to go PNG/Tonga (in either order) in consecutive matches before a potential final against Aus/NZ in all likelihood.

One of the harder runs of all time I would imagine so If you win the cup it'll be very well earned.

 

But on the flip side, we avoid both Aus & NZ   (arguably the two best teams) until the final.

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9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I hope that is the case, and we have seen that the BBC are happy to show GB v Tonga and PNG for example (although it did come with NZ bolted on). 

I do think there is a difference - we do seem to get some cross subsidisation of viewers when on the BBC, the numbers are far greater than standard RL fans numbers, and NZ and Australia are far bigger draws in a general 'Rugby' sense than Tonga and Fiji in the UK. 

But I think your point about our commercial income etc. being low is a good one and I think the low starting base on stuff like this, while being really poor, means that a change in approach isn't exactly going to cost us millions. 

But as we saw this weekend, Tonga were sponsored by a local plumbing firm, so it is a challenge, but shouldn't be impossible to overcome. 

The best approach, as you’ve said, appears to be bolting on these nations with a New Zealand game, too. I also agree on a proper 4N type tournament rather than a standalone test series. 

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5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I hope that is the case, and we have seen that the BBC are happy to show GB v Tonga and PNG for example (although it did come with NZ bolted on). 

I do think there is a difference - we do seem to get some cross subsidisation of viewers when on the BBC, the numbers are far greater than standard RL fans numbers, and NZ and Australia are far bigger draws in a general 'Rugby' sense than Tonga and Fiji in the UK. 

But I think your point about our commercial income etc. being low is a good one and I think the low starting base on stuff like this, while being really poor, means that a change in approach isn't exactly going to cost us millions. 

But as we saw this weekend, Tonga were sponsored by a local plumbing firm, so it is a challenge, but shouldn't be impossible to overcome. 

Yeah that's fair. We need to start playing these games before we can even build some of these. Next year provides a great opportunity to do that. 

I just think at some point the game needs to take a leap of faith. It has never been better placed to do so when it comes to the standard of the international game. If the RFL doesn't have the cahones to make it happen then let the IRL do it out of World Cup profits but they reap the profit. There would be far worse investments. 

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26 minutes ago, Cumbrian Fanatic said:

I believe you are correct, that's the mentality I struggle to understand

They know that, as long as they keep the pond small, they'll carry on looking like really big fish.

And they don't want to jeopardise that.

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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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3 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

They are very good at uploading videos quickly, but why are these videos on the NRL channel rather than those of IRL or governing bodies of competing countries?

Probably because these tests are part of the NRL’s broadcasting deal.

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A few thoughts after finally getting through all games.

NZ - I think this is probably the strongest I’ve seen them in my lifetime and they’re a very real chance at the World Cup.

Tonga - They’ll be better but I can’t see them winning it or making the final. PNG may get them in the group stages.

Samoa - As above, they’ll be strong especially if they get some players like Laui, To’o, Crichton or Papalii.

Cook Islands - For a nation of 20k this is probably their level, won’t expect much more or much less.

PNG - Even though they’re not stacked with NRL players like some others I think they can make quite a dent in the World Cup. Wouldn’t be surprised to see them win their group with a few additions at the end of the year. I love the way they play, it really is disappointing there aren’t more PNG players in the NRL. Olam went from Digicel cup to arguably best centre in the NRL within 4-5 years yet no clubs seem to have noticed. Putt and Puara for example could have had NRL or Super League careers but that ship seems to have sailed unfortunately.

Fiji - Glad to see Turuva doing well. They’ll be far better at the end of the year if they can get Lovodua and Wakeham in the halves and Koroisau at 9. Naiqama probably doesn’t make the 17 at full strength let alone captain and #6, not a half and the #7 I have never heard of. On paper they could have a team just as good as Tonga or Samoa, wouldn’t be surprised to see them make the semis again.

Thoroughly enjoyable day. Give me a NZ, Tonga, Samoa tri-series and PNG Vs Fiji home and away series alongside Origin any day and scrap the half-strength NRL bye weeks. Very real shame if the NRL sticks to the decision of scrapping this, if anything they should be extending it.

Edited by jim_57
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1 hour ago, Damien said:

Yeah that's fair. We need to start playing these games before we can even build some of these. Next year provides a great opportunity to do that. 

I just think at some point the game needs to take a leap of faith. It has never been better placed to do so when it comes to the standard of the international game. If the RFL doesn't have the cahones to make it happen then let the IRL do it out of World Cup profits but they reap the profit. There would be far worse investments. 

It's interesting that you suggest IRL investing as this is what they did with the GB Tour which saw them return to PNG for the first time in over 25 years. 

They got plenty of stick, but I think much of that was because of people not liking GB. I'm perfectly happy with the IRL investing in tournaments like this if it helps them to build up profits. 

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This was not international RL as we know it - today it was NRL international RL.

  • The players in Sydney had NRL (Pacific test) logos on their shirts
  • They played to NRL rules not international rules (including captains challenge)
  • They had NRL refs
  • It was televised on the NRL's super Saturday broadcast slot of Fox (probably with TV revenue to NRL)

Exactly what does the IRL actually do? England played the combined nations under SL rules also.

I think we are seeing the start of a power move by the NRL to create a new income stream in October/November each year. After the 2025 WC in France my view is that all bets are off and the NRL will bid to run the RLWC (maybe even with as few as 8 countries) and 4-6 team pacific cups in non WC years. They may not succeed but it is a definite possibility. 

Edited by Scubby
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22 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It's interesting that you suggest IRL investing as this is what they did with the GB Tour which saw them return to PNG for the first time in over 25 years. 

They got plenty of stick, but I think much of that was because of people not liking GB. I'm perfectly happy with the IRL investing in tournaments like this if it helps them to build up profits. 

That's different. I am not for the IRL subsidising GB (or England) to tour the Southern hemisphere in partnership with NZ in a folly that was destined to fail once Australia pulled out. The established tier 1 countries should absolutely be able to do that themselves. That is for another thread though.

I am all for them helping Tonga et al to get on their feet and tour if they cannot happen otherwise (if the excuse is the money is not there for it to happen).

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Just now, Damien said:

That's different. I am not for the IRL subsidising GB (or England) to tour the Southern hemisphere in partnership with NZ in a folly that was destined to fail once Australia pulled out. The established tier 1 countries should absolutely be able to do that themselves. That is for another thread though.

I am all for them helping Tonga et al to get on their feet and tour if they cannot happen otherwise (if the excuse is the money is not there for it to happen).

So you are happy for them to pay for Eng, NZ, Tonga and PNG to play in England, but not for the same four teams (one badged as GB) to play in NZ and PNG? 

Apart from the formal 4N structure, that is pretty much what we are talking about. 

If they underwrite a 4N in the UK they are funding a tour for a tier one nation, which is literally the exact same thing. 

As an aside though, the losses for the GB tour does rather show that in reality there are very few major ventures in international RL that make money. 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

So you are happy for them to pay for Eng, NZ, Tonga and PNG to play in England, but not for the same four teams (one badged as GB) to play in NZ and PNG? 

Apart from the formal 4N structure, that is pretty much what we are talking about. 

If they underwrite a 4N in the UK they are funding a tour for a tier one nation, which is literally the exact same thing. 

As an aside though, the losses for the GB tour does rather show that in reality there are very few major ventures in international RL that make money. 

Well no. I'd firmly expect England and New Zealand to fund themselves as they have done for 100 odd years. I think Tonga coming here can absolutely be profitable. I have stated that over many posts. However you don't see to think so. If money is the issue then I would be happy for the IRL to help Tonga but they should also reap in the profits (if that meant Tonga touring or a 4 Nations). That would be preferable than another RFL risk averse test series against New Zealand.

I wouldn't expect the RFL or NZRL to be paid for. Neither would I want them to just give up one of their main sources of income. That's just crazy and we already know how much no internationals affect the NZRL and RFL coffers. Those two countries, and France, need to build their income streams too.

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I am watching all the games on catchup. Half way through Samoa v Cook Islands.

I haven’t read any comments prior to mine, only to avoid any spoilers.

Watching the Tonga v NZ match, I pondered how many of the 17 for both teams spend their week to week under the stewardship of Bellamy, Robinson and Cleary, the coaches that are clearly the best practising coaches in the NRL right now. Couldn’t find the figures. Anyone able to help? Is the result of this test match very much due to the number of players under leading coaching week to week?

Let alone, Tonga were missing a coach in Wolf (he wasn’t released or didn’t want to leave?), it looked like Tonga were a team thrown together at a minutes’ notice and I thought they played like a leaderless, mish mash squad. 

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6 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I am watching all the games on catchup. Half way through Samoa v Cook Islands.

I haven’t read any comments prior to mine, only to avoid any spoilers.

Watching the Tonga v NZ match, I pondered how many of the 17 for both teams spend their week to week under the stewardship of Bellamy, Robinson and Cleary, the coaches that are clearly the best practising coaches in the NRL right now. Couldn’t find the figures. Anyone able to help? Is the result of this test match very much due to the number of players under leading coaching week to week?

Let alone, Tonga were missing a coach in Wolf (he wasn’t released or didn’t want to leave?), it looked like Tonga were a team thrown together at a minutes’ notice and I thought they played like a leaderless, mish mash squad. 

You put Hopoate at full back, Tupou on the wing, Staggs in the centre and Lolohea at stand off and you have a different backline stacked with experience. Tui would do the majority of the kicking and that lets Staggs play his running game at centre.

Saying that, NZ was awesome today. Hughes, Brown, Manu and Smith is a scary spine. They are the real deal for the WC.

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8 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I am watching all the games on catchup. Half way through Samoa v Cook Islands.

I haven’t read any comments prior to mine, only to avoid any spoilers.

Watching the Tonga v NZ match, I pondered how many of the 17 for both teams spend their week to week under the stewardship of Bellamy, Robinson and Cleary, the coaches that are clearly the best practising coaches in the NRL right now. Couldn’t find the figures. Anyone able to help? Is the result of this test match very much due to the number of players under leading coaching week to week?

Let alone, Tonga were missing a coach in Wolf (he wasn’t released or didn’t want to leave?), it looked like Tonga were a team thrown together at a minutes’ notice and I thought they played like a leaderless, mish mash squad. 

Tonga were missing a scrum half and someone with a semblance of a kicking game. They either need to find that for the World Cup or someone needs to get practicing.

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46 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well no. I'd firmly expect England and New Zealand to fund themselves as they have done for 100 odd years. I think Tonga coming here can absolutely be profitable. I have stated that over many posts. However you don't see to think so. If money is the issue then I would be happy for the IRL to help Tonga but they should also reap in the profits (if that meant Tonga touring or a 4 Nations). That would be preferable than another RFL risk averse test series against New Zealand.

I wouldn't expect the RFL or NZRL to be paid for. Neither would I want them to just give up one of their main sources of income. That's just crazy and we already know how much no internationals affect the NZRL and RFL coffers. Those two countries, and France, need to build their income streams too.

When we talk about this - and this is no criticism of anyone - I would love to know what kind of figures we are talking about.

How much would it cost to bring Tonga over here for a warm up match v Cumbria, a test v Wales and a test v England?

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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3 minutes ago, Damien said:

Tonga were missing a scrum half and someone with a semblance of a kicking game. They either need to find that for the World Cup or someone needs to get practicing.

Kicking game from Tonga was obscene!

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5 minutes ago, Scubby said:

You put Hopoate at full back, Tupou on the wing, Staggs in the centre and Lolohea at stand off and you have a different backline stacked with experience. Tui would do the majority of the kicking and that lets Staggs play his running game at centre.

Saying that, NZ was awesome today. Hughes, Brown, Manu and Smith is a scary spine. They are the real deal for the WC.

Can’t argue with any of that. But it did still look like a team of players of good coaching vs a team of avg coaching.

Pardon my ignorance here (to all on the forum), have there been many fit SL players that haven’t travelled for this weekend? 

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4 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Can’t argue with any of that. But it did still look like a team of players of good coaching vs a team of avg coaching.

Pardon my ignorance here (to all on the forum), have there been many fit SL players that haven’t travelled for this weekend? 

Yes outside of a Wakefield player (Cook Islands) none have gone over. Kristian Woolf was also not coaching Tonga for this game which was a big miss

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