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Double Headers - Women's game


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I've only ever watched two women's games of RL in person and they have been the England double headers over the last 12m.

I've enjoyed them both a great deal and an really looking forward to attending the RLWC to see more this winter. 

My wife and daughter loved it at the weekend and it was clear that the young fans really responded to the women, treating them like real stars, mobbing them for photos and autographs. It was really positive to see. 

And here's the but...  As the women were about to be presented with the trophy, the mens trainers had already mobbed the pitch with equipment, some England players were out and literally as the trophy was handed over the All Stars walked out of the tunnel onto the pitch. This completely stole the attention from the women's event and made it absolutely clear that they were no more than pre-match entertainment for the men. We need to be better than that, and we need to allow the women to have their moment. Somebody should have been blocking the tunnel. 

But it does bring us onto the subject of double headers overall, are they good for the women's game? Part of me thinks they have their uses at the moment, a lot of people were exposed to the game the other day who maybe wouldn't have been, but it does treat them as 2nd class players. 

I then noticed that at the RLWC every single women's event is a double header - including the final which means 4 to 5hrs outside in November. 

Is the double header for women approach the right one? What should we be doing? 

 

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For me in the short term the question is does it make a significant difference to the crowd? If it does, there are short term benefits to d/h as it gives the women a chance to play in bigger stadiums in front of bigger crowds, which is a real help in terms of getting used to playing in high pressure games. 

Numerous women cricketers said this after the Hundred last summer, when the games were switched to d/h due to pandemic, and to everyone's surprise increasingly large numbers started turning up early for the womens game. 

Is it a simple as yes in the summer, no in the winter? 

Long term of course, they have to be their own events. 

Edit: obv you do it properly, not the shambles you describe above. In the Hundred final last year, the women got the full trophy presentation and pitch side interviews before the men's buildup started. 

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I have to say I don't like this. I think the women deserve to have standalone games. I also don't want to be in even the nicest stadium for 4 to 5 hours. The Halliwell Jones is a decent modern facility, but...

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I am 100% in the stand alone camp.

Yes, there may be smaller crowds in the short term but the games will attract people who absolutely want to watch the women's game on its own merits and will grow from there.  The biggest games, internationals and finals, will attract decent 4 figure crowds and will look ok on tv in the right stadia.

I firmly believe that the girls and women's game is the biggest growth area we have for the sport in this country and it will have significant benefits in profile if we get it right.  Let's make them front and centre of attention when they play.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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They should absolutely be standalone games and an event and an attraction in their own right. Being an undercard event only stifles the growth of the women's game and will see it played to a smaller audience (as many will just miss it as they don't want to sit in a stadium for 4 hours, particularly in November). 

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Women's sport has moved forward so quickly that what seemed reasonable in, say, 2016, actually looks pretty dated now. I reckon the next season of The Hundred, for example, could see a bit of push back as the women (and people who are there to watch them) get a bit annoyed about always being curtain raisers.

It really is standalone or nothing - unless there's a really good reason to do differently. Women's sport is visible enough now and there is a distinct audience for it in many cases.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

Women's sport has moved forward so quickly that what seemed reasonable in, say, 2016, actually looks pretty dated now. I reckon the next season of The Hundred, for example, could see a bit of push back as the women (and people who are there to watch them) get a bit annoyed about always being curtain raisers.

It really is standalone or nothing - unless there's a really good reason to do differently. Women's sport is visible enough now and there is a distinct audience for it in many cases.

I'd agree with this. 

I think we are where we are now and I think we should now be making a commitment that the RLWC is the last time we'll be staging these double headers with women as Pre-match entertainment for men. 

I'll be really disappointed if we are seeing more of the same in 2023.

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I don’t mind them at this stage of where the women’s game is at. I must add a caveat to that, that there needs to be a balance where we don’t have too many double headers so that it becomes more of a precursor than a main event. 

I don’t think visibility of women’s rugby league is that high right now but it’s certainly growing rapidly (as is the wheelchair game) to the point where in a few years, these events will be big enough, comparatively speaking, to be standalone. 

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Just as an aside, if you think I'm a whinger on here, well my wife has written to the RFL today to explain how disappointed she was with the treatment the women's presentation got. 😆

She gave positive feedback explaining how positive the women's game was and how great and inspiring they were for the kids we were with. 

As context for those who don't know, my wife is a Scottish nationalist - she was 100% caught up in and cheering on the England women 🤣

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5 minutes ago, Jughead said:

I don’t mind them at this stage of where the women’s game is at. I must add a caveat to that, that there needs to be a balance where we don’t have too many double headers so that it becomes more of a precursor than a main event. 

I don’t think visibility of women’s rugby league is that high right now but it’s certainly growing rapidly (as is the wheelchair game) to the point where in a few years, these events will be big enough, comparatively speaking, to be standalone. 

Surely every women's match in the RLWC being a double header before the men's is doing exactly that though?

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A double-header is certainly a way of targeting potential converts to the women's game from a group of people who were already there to watch RL. And I am always chary of letting idealism run roughshod over pragmatism.

But maybe I'd limit double-headers to special events where the hosting club is making a big day of it, off and on the pitch. A Bank Holiday festival of Rugby, maybe.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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I get that it won't be the same for every club, but currently for York City Knights the strategy works well.

We've trialled double headers where the Ladies have played both first and last, and the feedback from them is that they very much prefer to play first while more of the crowd filters in.

They played a standalone fixture at the LNER earlier this year too which had a healthy attendance of around 900, and I'm quite sure that there will be more next year, hopefully with a post-RLWC-winning bounce.

The Ladies team is a massive part of the Knights now, long may it continue.

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I think at first, it was the right approach. The more the women's game develops, the more it should stand on its own two feet.

I see the arguments for. The Saints supporters coaches arrived at Elland Road for the men's semi final in time for the women's final. The Saints fans really got behind the women and created a good atmosphere. Also gave a better than otherwise trophy lift and lap of honour.

On the other, there were 4,000 fans at Headingley for the women's Grand Final as a standalone event last year. This would have been unthinkable 5 years ago. The final is at Saints this year and I'll definitely go if we make it and maybe if we don't. I probably wouldn't have a few years ago.

When World Cup planning was in progress, we probably were in the territory of women's matches needing to be double headers. I'm therefore not too critical of the decision, it made sense at the time.

But going forward, the big events should be standalone, beginning with next year's Challenge Cup Final.

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28 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Just as an aside, if you think I'm a whinger on here, well my wife has written to the RFL today to explain how disappointed she was with the treatment the women's presentation got. 😆

They say opposites attract.  But it's not always true!

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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23 minutes ago, Damien said:

Surely every women's match in the RLWC being a double header before the men's is doing exactly that though?

Just to clarify, I think I may not have been clear - they aren't al double headers before mens games (although the England one at Wigan and the Final is) most of them are double headers with two womens matches. Still a stupid idea in November.

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2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

They say opposites attract.  But it's not always true!

Believe it or not, we are quite different - she's nowhere near as miserable as me 😆

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Just to clarify, I think I may not have been clear - they aren't al double headers before mens games (although the England one at Wigan and the Final is) most of them are double headers with two womens matches. Still a stupid idea in November.

Fair enough and yes that's just as stupid.

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3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Believe it or not, we are quite different - she's nowhere near as miserable as me 😆

I believe it.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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51 minutes ago, Damien said:

Surely every women's match in the RLWC being a double header before the men's is doing exactly that though?

Not every women's match in the RLWC is a double header before a men's match, some of them are double headers with another women's match.

Personally I think they have there place for certain games but generally shouldn't be the norm.

To get a players perspective, I'll ask my niece, who plays for Barrow ladies, what she and her team mates think - a lot of their games are played before Barrows home games. Interestingly, I went to watch them play Leigh Miner last week and the demographic did seem quite a bit different to watching a Leigh miners men's game.

100% League 0% Union

Just because I don't know doesn't mean I don't understand

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I absolutely believe they should be standalone games, the women's game is exciting and blossoming and there is no reason at all that it should be seen as a curtain raiser.

As i have said in a previous thread i hosted a speakers evening with some of the Huddersfield Giants woman squad members and head coach, everyone of them were absolutely passionate and enthusiastic about the game, some of these girls were 16/17 years old and the fact they are devoted to Rugby League at that age is a massive thing for the game, these girls also said that for a lot of young girls who are into Rugby League it's not Sam Tomkins, Alex Walmsley, James Roby etc who are their idols it's Jodie Cunningham, Tara Jones, Amy Hardcastle etc, these women are already highly respected especially amongst young sporting girls and the demography for a stand alone woman's international would be so much different than they currently are which are mostly curious middle aged blokes waiting for the mens game.

A womens stand alone game would attract curious blokes, blokes who are already into the womens game, women/girls who play the game, women/girls who want to play the game and more often than not their friends and families too

Why shouldn't these passionate, talented women have their own show?

I would 100% probably go to a womens international whereas i probably wouldn't go to a mens one at the moment,

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Stand alone for me.

I attended the finals day last year and really enjoyed it.

What I noticed though was the majority of the crowd appeared to be a total demographic shift from men's rugby league, more groups of women, girls and a lot more younger people, not just groups of stone Island clad young people trying to be aggressive and intimidating but groups of young people enjoying themselves.

We should be doing everything we can to capture and keep these people, I doubt many of those who I saw at the finals day will be bothered for attending a world cup warm up game between 2 fairly scratch men's sides.

ANd as we've seen on these forums a lot of people who watch mens RL aren't interested in watching women's RL either.

it needs to be a stand alone game to attract it's own, exclusive audience to add to the one that already exists.

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29 minutes ago, meast said:

Stand alone for me.

I attended the finals day last year and really enjoyed it.

What I noticed though was the majority of the crowd appeared to be a total demographic shift from men's rugby league, more groups of women, girls and a lot more younger people, not just groups of stone Island clad young people trying to be aggressive and intimidating but groups of young people enjoying themselves.

We should be doing everything we can to capture and keep these people, I doubt many of those who I saw at the finals day will be bothered for attending a world cup warm up game between 2 fairly scratch men's sides.

ANd as we've seen on these forums a lot of people who watch mens RL aren't interested in watching women's RL either.

it needs to be a stand alone game to attract it's own, exclusive audience to add to the one that already exists.

I think a few on here have mentioned the style of women's RL being a bit reminiscent of RL in the 1980s and 1990s - before the wrestle came into the game. Different body shapes and a completely different style of RL - very enjoyable too.

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8 hours ago, Scubby said:

I think a few on here have mentioned the style of women's RL being a bit reminiscent of RL in the 1980s and 1990s - before the wrestle came into the game. Different body shapes and a completely different style of RL - very enjoyable too.

Different body shapes? Really? 🤣

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