Transgender players banned from international RL

[RL Tragic]

3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I don't understand why you are writing a post complaining when the very thing you want (your first sentence) has actually happened.

Venting … feel better now like many folks I’m hoping this is the first crack in the common sense dam .

[RL Tragic]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

This just seems like a load of totally unconnected moans.

Probably, are connected though . The games got bigger problems that it should be focusing on . I think the game really is on the brink 

[Wholly Trinity]

13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Then you get into ridiculous territory of a Trans woman can play Womens RL but only if she is under 5ft 8 and weighs less than 70 kilos...

Sorry if that appears facetious, but I think "case by case" is a can of worms.

It wouldn't be on height and weight though. That would also be a blanket ban. There are women taller than 5 ft 8 and heavier than 70kg.

It'd be be on measured althletic ability, strength, speed, stamina and fitness etc. And compared to the female measures within a tolerance.

[fighting irish]

28 minutes ago, Damien said:

And what about those that don't? Just screw them?

No I didn't say that. I'm just asking the question about the long term effects of depleted testosterone.

If the argument for a ban, is based on the fact that ''male'' advantages are retained after surgery/hormone therapy then I'm seeking to soften that hard line, by asking if the advantages are kept for ever after.

If the advantages complained about diminish, (to acceptable levels) then that removes any objection to them competing against women.

If they don't diminish sufficiently, in any particular individual, then there are issues to iron out, but the total numbers excluded would be reduced.

Where you draw the line, how you define ''acceptable levels'' may form the subject and essence of the ethical debate, from now on.

My intention is to honour transgender people and include them, not to ostracise them. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by fighting irish

[Damien]

1 minute ago, RL Tragic said:

Probably, are connected though . The games got bigger problems that it should be focusing on . I think the game really is on the brink 

Yes I can totally see the connection between transgender players and the game dying on its ######, miniscule participation and the quality of players. Not that you are necessarily wrong in these moans but it's certainly not because of a statement by the IRL on transgender players.

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

It wouldn't be on height and weight though. That would also be a blanket ban. There are women taller than 5 ft 8 and heavier than 70kg.

It'd be be on measured althletic ability, strength, speed, stamina and fitness etc. And compared to the female measures within a tolerance.

Are you doing that at amateur clubs too?

And presumably a person can get faster/fitter/stronger (or the other way around), so would their be annual testing of these athletic abilities?

And even then, who is your comparative sample and who decides who is in said sample?

[RL Tragic]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

Yes I can totally see the connection between transgender players and the game dying on its ######, miniscule participation and the quality of players. Not that you are necessarily wrong in these moans but it's certainly not because of a statement by the IRL on transgender players.

The point is taking from what I hear on the terraces from the people who are propping the game up is that they don’t need a statement from the IRL ( from its headquarters at a serviced office in Milton Keynes, The point being it’s hardly FIFA) pointing out what everyone already new , That if you are physically and we’re born a man it may just be a teensy Weensy bit unfair to Women . They should be focusing on the glaring problems at hand not hopping on a statement bandwagon. 

[Wholly Trinity]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Are you doing that at amateur clubs too?

And presumably a person can get faster/fitter/stronger (or the other way around), so would their be annual testing of these athletic abilities?

And even then, who is your comparative sample and who decides who is in said sample?

You could either measure in the amateur game or use the professional level as a baseline.

It would always be subject to review.

The random sample would only need to be statistically significant.

[RL Tragic]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Are you doing that at amateur clubs too?

And presumably a person can get faster/fitter/stronger (or the other way around), so would their be annual testing of these athletic abilities?

And even then, who is your comparative sample and who decides who is in said sample?

currently even the most established amateur clubs are struggling to raise a team by the end of the season . I think there is more to focus on than spending time building a framework that’s going to be used rarely if ever . How many players are we actually talking about ?

[fighting irish]

20 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Are you doing that at amateur clubs too?

And presumably a person can get faster/fitter/stronger (or the other way around), so would their be annual testing of these athletic abilities?

And even then, who is your comparative sample and who decides who is in said sample?

You could argue, it's more important to enforce it at amateur clubs because of the lesser athletes playing there, the risk of injury is greater.

I can remember playing with a 24/25 stone behemoth who invariably injured (often hospitalised) opposition players at amateur level.

There was nothing in place to protect them.

At the time it started me thinking about Middleweight RL competition, where player weights were limited but that's a different thread.

I've not given this a great deal of thought, I'm just asking questions but you could include all RL playing women (or a representative sample) and develop a natural distribution curve of various physical attributes. A statistical analysis.

Then decide if your transgender player is an outlier, or within a couple or three standard deviations of the mean.    

Edited June 21, 2022 by fighting irish

[RL Tragic]

How many players are we actually talking about. Is it of such magnitude that we can afford to divert very limited resources away from the key demographic. 

[Tommygilf]

16 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

You could either measure in the amateur game or use the professional level as a baseline.

It would always be subject to review.

The random sample would only need to be statistically significant.

Is Womens Super League the Pro Game or NRLW? Does it vary from region to region? 

Ultimately if you set a level by any measurement, you will be excluding those outside those measurements.

Oh and I forgot the most significant part, who's paying?

[fighting irish]

7 minutes ago, RL Tragic said:

How many players are we actually talking about. Is it of such magnitude that we can afford to divert very limited resources away from the key demographic. 

First of all, we don't know if there is any decay in the male characteristics, which cause the problem.

I was just wondering if they do diminish in time.

If it can be demonstrated that they do, and that opens the door to transgender women playing RL, then (because they are miles in front of us, with regard to the research, and even offering grants to people wanting to do further research) maybe the Rugby Union, will do the statistical analysis and we can use their figures.

Would that allow you to sleep at night? 

Edited June 21, 2022 by fighting irish

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

You could argue, it's more important to enforce it at amateur clubs because of the lesser athletes playing there, the risk of injury is greater.

I can remember playing with a 24/25 stone behemoth who invariably injured (often hospitalised) opposition players at amateur level.

There was nothing in place to protect them.

At the time it started me thinking about Middleweight RL competition, where player weights were limited but that's a different thread.

I've not given this a great deal of thought, I'm just asking questions but you could include all RL playing women (or a representative sample) and develop a natural distribution curve of various physical attributes. A statistical analysis.

Then decide if your transgender player is an outlier, or within a couple or three standard deviations of the mean.    

I agree that weight categories could and probably should be the way forward for all RL that is played, nevermind in relation to this specific topic.

I think sampling all women and girls who play RL would be a massive undertaking.

And obviously, none of this testing is very nice for the person involved. Look at what Caster Semenya went through. Just saying "oh well you need to fit near this mean average and we'll test XYZ" doesn't make the sport inclusive...

[Wholly Trinity]

Levels per competition. 

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Is Womens Super League the Pro Game or NRLW? Does it vary from region to region? 

Ultimately if you set a level by any measurement, you will be excluding those outside those measurements.

Oh and I forgot the most significant part, who's paying?

Yes. Those beyond the threshold would not be allowed to compete because they would be deemed to have an unfair physical advantage /  risk of causing injury (rather than just because they are Trans women per se)

Would it really be that expensive? I'm pretty sure it would be relatively easy to collect data and the process would be beneficial to others i.e. increasing professionalism 

 

[RL Tragic]

4 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

First of all, we don't know if there is any decay in the male characteristics, which cause the problem.

I was just wondering if they do diminish in time.

If it can be demonstrated that they do, and that opens the door to transgender women playing RL, then (because they are miles in front of us, with regard to the research, and even offering grants to people wanting to do further research) maybe the Rugby Union, will do the statistical analysis and we can use their figures.

Would that allow you to sleep at night? 

Last comment was petty . My point is that the vast majority of the core demographic of rugby league supporters/ enthusiasts: players who are the folks actually paying for it to exist or the folks sponsors and TV channels , Emphatically font want the RFL spaffing any Money or time which they simply don’t have on virtue signalling vanity projects when we are haemorrhaging players in our traditional demographics and supposed heartlands .

[fighting irish]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I agree that weight categories could and probably should be the way forward for all RL that is played, nevermind in relation to this specific topic.

I think sampling all women and girls who play RL would be a massive undertaking.

And obviously, none of this testing is very nice for the person involved. Look at what Caster Semenya went through. Just saying "oh well you need to fit near this mean average and we'll test XYZ" doesn't make the sport inclusive...

Wholly Trinity has commented above, on the likely cost of the collection of the data. See also my flippant comment about the RU paying for the statistical analysis.

I agree that the ''testing'' could be intrusive and possibly unpleasant.

However (and the validity of this entire discussion hinges on the assumption that maleness will diminish over time in a reduced-testosterone, elevated estrogen, tg woman,) it is a possible way of including more (if not all) transgender women in our sport. 

[gingerjon]

7 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Would it really be that expensive? I'm pretty sure it would be relatively easy to collect data and the process would be beneficial to others i.e. increasing professionalism 

 

The process is expensive. Not least because, unlike what the Adult Human Female stickers tell you, it can actually be pretty hard to determine who should participate in women's sports once you go down this line.

Caster Semanya is a woman, for example. But she's not allowed to compete in her chosen sport. The testosterone testing and legal rulings did not come cheaply.

FINA, whose coattails we're holding onto, will be doing chromosome testing. Because, it turns out, you can't always tell and, sometimes, nor can the women themselves. 

[RL Tragic]

7 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Levels per competition. 

Yes. Those beyond the threshold would not be allowed to compete because they would be deemed to have an unfair physical advantage /  risk of causing injury (rather than just because they are Trans women per se)

Would it really be that expensive? I'm pretty sure it would be relatively easy to collect data and the process would be beneficial to others i.e. increasing professionalism 

 

And based on the fact the game as a whole does not have a pot to pee in or a window to throw it out of how should this be funded . Why don’t we sort out a clubhouse for some of the amateur clubs that are struggling. 

[fighting irish]

5 minutes ago, RL Tragic said:

Last comment was petty . My point is that the vast majority of the core demographic of rugby league supporters/ enthusiasts: players who are the folks actually paying for it to exist or the folks sponsors and TV channels , Emphatically font want the RFL spaffing any Money or time which they simply don’t have on virtue signalling vanity projects when we are haemorrhaging players in our traditional demographics and supposed heartlands .

In certain African/Asian countries it's a criminal offense, punishable by imprisonment (or even death).

I'm just trying to be respectful and kind to fellow human beings.

This is just a hypothetical discussion, about how certain things may be achieved, to improve inclusivity.

We all have to live within our means, no argument there.  

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Levels per competition. 

Yes. Those beyond the threshold would not be allowed to compete because they would be deemed to have an unfair physical advantage /  risk of causing injury (rather than just because they are Trans women per se)

Would it really be that expensive? I'm pretty sure it would be relatively easy to collect data and the process would be beneficial to others i.e. increasing professionalism 

What if I disagreed with your sampling and methodology to determine the threshold? Why would you restrict it so that only average or worse transgender athletes could compete? Are you accounting for other factors determining athletic ability to ensure there is no discrimination there?

Sorry to press this issue like this, as largely we don't disagree too much I believe. But I have seen these debates and similar play out in institutions and I think the "case by case sorts it" approach is quite naïve.

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Wholly Trinity has commented above, on the likely cost of the collection of the data. See also my flippant comment about the RU paying for the statistical analysis.

I agree that the ''testing'' could be intrusive and possibly unpleasant.

However (and the validity of this entire discussion hinges on the assumption that maleness will diminish over time in a reduced-testosterone, elevated estrogen, tg woman,) it is a possible way of including more (if not all) transgender women in our sport. 

I think I covered a lot in my most recent reply to WT, but to take your latter point, I think it will ultimately be very difficult for any sport that does differentiate between mens and womens competitions to come to a satisfactory conclusion on this issue. 

RU paying is certainly an option, one that has been used in the past for various points too. I suspect it may be something that English Womens RU and the NRLW look at jointly given they are the foremost female rugby competitions.

It is certainly not an inexpensive arrangement however, and Women's sport, definitely Women's RL, simply doesn't have the resources to do what has been suggested.

[fighting irish]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

What if I disagreed with your sampling and methodology to determine the threshold? Why would you restrict it so that only average or worse transgender athletes could compete? Are you accounting for other factors determining athletic ability to ensure there is no discrimination there?

Sorry to press this issue like this, as largely we don't disagree too much I believe. But I have seen these debates and similar play out in institutions and I think the "case by case sorts it" approach is quite naïve.

I'm tiring Tommy, but let me say a couple of things. First of all, the swimmers and Rugby Union players have been excluded based on (and they are listed in the RU document) the male ''advantages'' retained even after testosterone is limited.

They (RU) have obviously measured these attributes in trans-gender women, at least over the short term and based on their observations, they have excluded them.  

So it is in that context that this discussion arose.

If over time, those advantages diminish, (to acceptable levels) due to prolonged hormone therapy, then the reasons transgender women have been excluded by Swimming and RU would disappear.

That's how we got here.

 

[Oxford]

How condescending and sexist to assume the women can't or couldn't manage and compete, it's so nice to see mysogyny alive and well in the 21st century, "Give's one a feeling of continuity with past"

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Oxford said:

How condescending and sexist to assume the women can't or couldn't manage and compete, it's so nice to see mysogyny alive and well in the 21st century, "Give's one a feeling of continuity with past"

It really isn't controversial or misogynistic 

https://law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/

"If you know sport, you know this beyond a reasonable doubt: there is an average 10-12% performance gap between elite males and elite females.  The gap is smaller between elite females and non-elite males, but it’s still insurmountable and that’s ultimately what matters.  Translating these statistics into real world results, we see, for example, that:

Just in the single year 2017, Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Tori Bowie's 100 meters lifetime best of 10.78 was beaten 15,000 times by men and boys.  (Yes, that’s the right number of zeros.)

The same is true of Olympic, World, and U.S.  Champion Allyson Felix’s 400 meters lifetime best of 49.26.  Just in the single year 2017, men and boys around the world outperformed her more than 15,000 times.

This differential isn’t the result of boys and men having a male identity, more resources, better training, or superior discipline. It’s because they have an androgenized body."

The report continues.