Transgender players banned from international RL

[dkw]

Just now, RP London said:

Dont disagree.. but this ban is only from internationals.. which is why i dont really understand it.. 

 

Ah you're right, I forgot about that, good point. It could be that someone is about to come out and transition?

This all seems a bit hurried by the RFL and seems like they jumped on the timing of the Swimming thing, but I do think there's some underlying reason behind it we haven't been told about.

[dkw]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

The safety focus does seem to come more from campaigners. 

What do you mean by "campaigners"?

[Dave T]

20 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

We are taking about banning them from certain categories of sport, toilet, changing room. I don't think I've heard anyone suggest an outright ban.

It is the outcome we get though. 

If a trans woman has been living their whole life as a female with a physical transition, are they really expected to go and play RL for a man's team? 

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, dkw said:

What do you mean by "campaigners"?

I don't think I need to explain the word campaigners to you dkw. 

But I acknowledge my post as clumsy, I should have gone on to say "campaigners, media and fans as opposed to governing bodies". 

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, RP London said:

Dont disagree.. but this ban is only from internationals.. which is why i dont really understand it.. 

 

Is that not the only thing in the IRL's remit?

Again it just points to a rushed decision on the back of swimming announcement without a joined up approach by all of the major Governing bodies and without even their own reviews being completed, or dare I say it even started.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

Is that not the only thing in the IRL's remit?

Again it just points to a rushed decision on the back of swimming announcement without a joined up approach by all of the major Governing bodies and without even their own reviews being completed, or dare I say it even started.

Wasn't there a mention earlier in this thread that in certain categories the RFU rules differ from World Rugby? 

It seems odd to me that sports wouldn't have a consistent approach on this. 

[RP London]

8 minutes ago, dkw said:

Ah you're right, I forgot about that, good point. It could be that someone is about to come out and transition?

This all seems a bit hurried by the RFL and seems like they jumped on the timing of the Swimming thing, but I do think there's some underlying reason behind it we haven't been told about.

Yes and arguably we shouldnt be told about necessarily, but the timing is very suspicious on this and the action seems slightly rushed including the language in the statement which leaves far too much open.

[Barley Mow]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It is the outcome we get though. 

If a trans woman has been living their whole life as a female with a physical transition, are they really expected to go and play RL for a man's team? 

The outcome of that would likely be that they stop playing, which certainly wouldn't be what I want. Hence the rest of my post.

As I say, I'm not sure what the solution is or even if there is a workable one, but we do need to ensure that we give due weight and consideration to the conflicting interests of the different groups who are impacted.

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Wasn't there a mention earlier in this thread that in certain categories the RFU rules differ from World Rugby? 

It seems odd to me that sports wouldn't have a consistent approach on this. 

Whilst looking into it, I can see that the French RU has different rules to the global body.

[RP London]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

1. Is that not the only thing in the IRL's remit?

2. Again it just points to a rushed decision on the back of swimming announcement without a joined up approach by all of the major Governing bodies and without even their own reviews being completed, or dare I say it even started.

1. yes thats a fair point

2. totally agree with that

Dare i say it but is it a "governing body" trying to make themselves relevant?

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Barley Mow said:

The outcome of that would likely be that they stop playing, which certainly wouldn't be what I want. Hence the rest of my post.

As I say, I'm not sure what the solution is or even if there is a workable one, but we do need to ensure that we give due weight and consideration to the conflicting interests of the different groups who are impacted.

Yes, I agree with that. And I do think this is where science needs to be strong on it. 

What exactly is it that makes it dangerous or unfair for trans women to play women's RL? We hear the odd snippet about trans women remain x% faster following hormone treatment, which may be a direct challenge for 100m sprint or similar, but for a multi skill team sport like RL how does that translate into danger or unfairness. 

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Whilst looking into it, I can see that the French RU has different rules to the global body.

Accepting that these sports may end up with consistent approaches in the end, and that sometimes there are politics at play, but it is odd if the danger present is so obvious and without doubt, then governing bodies arriving at different places is odd. 

It suggests that these decisions aren't purely being made on science and facts and that other things are at play. 

[Jonty58]

Do you think this Forum will deliver a direction on Transgender athlete's?

My opinion is Transgender men should not be allowed to compete as Women, simple as that.

Are there any Transgender athlete's having issues getting a game in a women's team at the moment?

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, RP London said:

1. yes thats a fair point

2. totally agree with that

Dare i say it but is it a "governing body" trying to make themselves relevant?

Yes I think so. I think someone said earlier about the IRL riding on swimming coat tails for publicity with the RLWC coming up. Now I'm not sure if I would go that far but stranger things have happened. I think your relevant comment perhaps nails it better and wanting to be a 'proper' world governing body (for want of a better phrase).

[gingerjon]

53 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It suggests that these decisions aren't purely being made on science and facts and that other things are at play. 

I will be very generous and say that, sometimes, it could be because the different bodies are putting 'the science' against different metrics.

As Rapinoe says, your high school volleyball team is not important. (Yet, perversely, this is likely to be the most contested area in US sports). Similarly, a body overseeing adult team community leagues (German FA statement) can probably be more relaxed than an individual sport based on strength and stamina looking at who can win its highest level international titles.

That's me being generous.

In reality, I think we're seeing a lot of kneejerk reactions based on the kind of grim culture war politicking that's infecting so much of our lives right now.

[Bobby123]

We are slowly turning the world of sport into a political and moral shambles.

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, Bobby123 said:

We are slowly turning the world of sport into a political and moral shambles.

What nonsense. 

The world is changing, Sports, including RL have to respond to that and have approaches to things that we haven't in the past. 

It would be shambolic and immoral if sports weren't responding to what is happening in the world. 

Whether that be sexual orientation, gender rights, female sport, physical and learning disability sport, mental health support, domestic abuse, environment etc. 

Sports can have real positive impacts on society, we should not shy away from that. 

[Dunbar]

The one thing I don't understand about this thread is that the people who seem the most angry agree with the decision.

I would hate to see the reaction to a decision they don't agree with.

[GUBRATS]

14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What nonsense. 

The world is changing, Sports, including RL have to respond to that and have approaches to things that we haven't in the past. 

It would be shambolic and immoral if sports weren't responding to what is happening in the world. 

Whether that be sexual orientation, gender rights, female sport, physical and learning disability sport, mental health support, domestic abuse, environment etc. 

Sports can have real positive impacts on society, we should not shy away from that. 

Thing is though Dave , ultimately some things in life will never be ' inclusive ' , IMO RL is one of them , I don't watch the Paralympics , IMO it is impossible to classify disability , and I hope we don't try with this , quite simply the physiche of men and women is different , so if your going to try to have some half way point where somebody born a male can play in a female competition after any treatment , then just have the one competition for both male and female competitors 

Have RL for anybody who wants to play it , recently at Leigh games at the LSV , Widnes and indeed Totenham we've had learning disability games , and everybody can see what the sport brings to them , and us watching 

So fine if somebody wants to set up a ' gender realinement ' game , fine , away they go 

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Thing is though Dave , ultimately some things in life will never be ' inclusive ' , IMO RL is one of them , I don't watch the Paralympics , IMO it is impossible to classify disability , and I hope we don't try with this , quite simply the physiche of men and women is different , so if your going to try to have some half way point where somebody born a male can play in a female competition after any treatment , then just have the one competition for both male and female competitors 

Have RL for anybody who wants to play it , recently at Leigh games at the LSV , Widnes and indeed Totenham we've had learning disability games , and everybody can see what the sport brings to them , and us watching 

So fine if somebody wants to set up a ' gender realinement ' game , fine , away they go 

You say RL will never be inclusive, but then talk about a possible option which could be more inclusive. 

So it may be possible

[OriginalMrC]

6 hours ago, Dave T said:

Yes, I agree with that. And I do think this is where science needs to be strong on it. 

What exactly is it that makes it dangerous or unfair for trans women to play women's RL? We hear the odd snippet about trans women remain x% faster following hormone treatment, which may be a direct challenge for 100m sprint or similar, but for a multi skill team sport like RL how does that translate into danger or unfairness. 

Quite simply mens bodies are different than womens bodies. Men are stronger and faster. Not just a little stronger, considerably so. In a contact sport like RL there is firstly the issue of fairness and secondly the issue of safety. Its really that simple. 

[Dave T]

11 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

Quite simply mens bodies are different than womens bodies. Men are stronger and faster. Not just a little stronger, considerably so. In a contact sport like RL there is firstly the issue of fairness and secondly the issue of safety. Its really that simple. 

I'm afraid it isn't that simple.

What does considerably stronger equate to, and we are talking about trans women, not men vs women. 

Does the evidence show that trans women are stronger, faster, bigger etc than the strongest, fastest, biggest cis women? Are they outliers, or are they above average on these metrics? 

[OriginalMrC]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm afraid it isn't that simple.

What does considerably stronger equate to, and we are talking about trans women, not men vs women. 

Does the evidence show that trans women are stronger, faster, bigger etc than the strongest, fastest, biggest cis women? Are they outliers, or are they above average on these metrics? 

I know this is a complex issue but I was responding to your question about why it was unfair. And in answer to your original question it is that simple. Research suggests that advantages remain even after treatment. Until research says otherwise then I'm not sure how the decision can be any different. 

 

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

I know this is a complex issue but I was responding to your question about why it was unfair. And in answer to your original question it is that simple. Research suggests that advantages remain even after treatment. Until research says otherwise then I'm not sure how the decision can be any different. 

 

I think it's important that RL addresses the unfairness question properly though. 

What does the science say? How much faster, how much stronger, how much bigger, how much more stamina - does it make them an outlier to cis women, or just around the top end, because if the averages are within the natural levels for cis women then it takes away some of the safety challenges. 

In terms of unfairness, does it make them better at RL? Does it make them more agile, better catchers, kickers, tackles, play under pressure? 

RL isn't about a single measure, otherwise Dwain Chambers may have been a great success at Cas. 

I expect we would come to the same conclusion that we are heading for (a formal rollout of this suspension), but if we are going to claim it is a research, fact based decision, I think the facts should strongly support this. 

A lot of the claims are high level and generic at the moment in many discussions. 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Dave T

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

You say RL will never be inclusive, but then talk about a possible option which could be more inclusive. 

So it may be possible

There are some ' sports ' where men and women compete equally , RL is not one of them , and the physical nature of it makes any form of transgender measuring impossible IMO , so it would be better to just set the line now , all through the sport , and stick to it 

Bearing in mind I coached a school team that had one of my best players a girl , she was the smallest player I had , and the hardest , nickname " Psycho " , I once managed to stop an opposition player from grabbing her ponytail , for his sake