Transgender players banned from international RL

[JohnM]

19 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yes, absolutely agree, the way some campaigners are trying to cancel trans people is appalling.

Edit to add more context.

That may seem a harsh statement, but that is what we are ultimately talking about here. We are talking about banning trans women from sport, toilets, changing rooms - eroding their rights, we are seeing harsh statements about what trans women should and shouldn't be able to do, even from our prominent politicians and prominent celebrities.

So despite the many claims that people who speak out are cancelled, it just isn't true - they get reactions which is fine. Their views are allowed to be challenged. And private companies are then allowed to decide whether they will platform these people. And at the moment, many are very happy to platform people with anti-trans sentiment.

We do need to be careful here, the last few posts and the one from Dunbar is spot on, we need to be sensitive and empathetic, even if we land on a ruling that we don't all agree with - this is people's lives and the provocative language used to campaign for chipping away at trans people's rights is problematic imho.

people who speak out are cancelled, it just isn't true

It IS true, though, and palpably so, as previously demonstrated in now-removed posts.

Their views are allowed to be challenged.

The only challenge is to those who want an open and honest and Inclusive discussion 

the only provocative language on here is from those on here who wish to shut down the discussion. 

 

[JohnM]

7 minutes ago, RP London said:

100% agree.. 

I  don't.  I think they did the right thing at the right time.

[Niels]

It would be useful if we could have some women players viewpoints.

 

[gingerjon]

18 minutes ago, RP London said:

Football have said nothing

Football's rules right now, by and large, allow for transgender women to play in women's leagues and transgender men to play in men's leagues.

I've just read the German FA extending its rules to allow non-binary, as well as transgender, athletes to participate in the male or female league of their choice. (I think their remit covers only amateur and community games). They are basing this on a similar rule that is already in place in the Berlin regional set-up which appears to have been welcomed and supported by an overwhelming majority of participants across men's and women's leagues.

[JohnM]

37 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I think we should be expecting an end to bullying, fat-shaming and worse.

Is that a radical point of view?

Get on with it then. I haven't seen any threads on this subject from you on this yet. Let's see you set up a Twitter campaign, run a protest march, topple some statues, cancel a few people who promote dieting. 

[gingerjon]

Just now, JohnM said:

set up a Twitter campaign, run a protest march, topple some statues, cancel a few people who promote dieting. 

Don't threaten me with a good time.

[RP London]

8 minutes ago, JohnM said:

I  don't.  I think they did the right thing at the right time.

what, tell people that they are not welcome? 

I'm not sure that is the right thing to do at anytime.

it especially the case when in 6 months they could be saying... oh you know what, we've worked this out come back, come back... oh you've found another sport to watch/play/enjoy... ######... 

I just cannot see a reason to say anything right now.. no one was asking, there were no players demanding to play or being stopped from playing.. there didnt seem to be a problem to solve right now.

[RP London]

6 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Football's rules right now, by and large, allow for transgender women to play in women's leagues and transgender men to play in men's leagues.

I've just read the German FA extending its rules to allow non-binary, as well as transgender, athletes to participate in the male or female league of their choice. (I think their remit covers only amateur and community games). They are basing this on a similar rule that is already in place in the Berlin regional set-up which appears to have been welcomed and supported by an overwhelming majority of participants across men's and women's leagues.

cheers, was unaware.. 

[Dave T]

14 minutes ago, JohnM said:

people who speak out are cancelled, it just isn't true

It IS true, though, and palpably so, as previously demonstrated in now-removed posts.

Their views are allowed to be challenged.

The only challenge is to those who want an open and honest and Inclusive discussion 

the only provocative language on here is from those on here who wish to shut down the discussion. 

 

This is a private forum - the mods can delete what they want - they even censor f l a t cap pers I believe. People get banned from here all the time. But that isn't cancelling. Those people can go off wherever they want.

I can be asked to leave a pub, I'm not cancelled.

I think there needs to be some kind of understanding of what people mean by cancelled. But this is probably one for another thread John.

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, RP London said:

cheers, was unaware.. 

The goalie at Hastings United is trans. We had a protest about her presence in the last game of the season at Bexhill.

I had someone tell me that the only reason Hastings had scored over 100 goals was because "you have a man in goal".

Which, I think, rather summed up their understanding of the game.

It's also worth saying, for information, that the Hastings goalie is not the only trans player I've seen at that level and lower. There are a couple of others - not many because there aren't many.

But she is the only one who gets protests. Because the "you can always tell" crowd quite regularly can't always tell.

[RP London]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The goalie at Hastings United is trans. We had a protest about her presence in the last game of the season at Bexhill.

I had someone tell me that the only reason Hastings had scored over 100 goals was because "you have a man in goal".

Which, I think, rather summed up their understanding of the game.

It's also worth saying, for information, that the Hastings goalie is not the only trans player I've seen at that level and lower. There are a couple of others - not many because there aren't many.

But she is the only one who gets protests. Because the "you can always tell" crowd quite regularly can't always tell.

I know I shouldnt but I do find those sorts of arguments quite funny.

I also read the first line as if you were involved in the protest rather than the "we" being the club... i was slightly surprised..  

[John Drake]

26 minutes ago, JohnM said:

people who speak out are cancelled, it just isn't true

It IS true, though, and palpably so, as previously demonstrated in now-removed posts.

Their views are allowed to be challenged.

The only challenge is to those who want an open and honest and Inclusive discussion 

the only provocative language on here is from those on here who wish to shut down the discussion. 

 

To clarify:

This is a thread in the Rugby League forum.

So long as posts remain related to Rugby League, and how the sport is dealing with this matter, and within our general  T&Cs posts will not be removed, and so far, none have.

Posts that attempt to shift the discussion away from Rugby League and into wider politically-themed issues about 'cancel culture' etc, WILL be removed from this thread, because there is a more appropriate section of this forum for those issues to be discussed (see link below).

https://www.totalrl.com/forums/index.php?/forum/509-political-discussions/

I think the approach we have taken as moderators is the correct one, as borne out by the fact this thread is now 7 pages long, still open, still on topic, and the discussion has remained generally respectful to all those who have taken part in it.

Hopefully, with the support and co-operation of everyone who chooses to post in here, it will remain that way.

Thanks.

[nadera78]

There are a lot of men on this thread discussing what should happen to women's sport. A bit like the wider discussion on this topic.

[gingerjon]

21 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

There are a lot of men on this thread discussing what should happen to women's sport. A bit like the wider discussion on this topic.

This is a board mostly populated by men. It is likely that any discussion about any topic will be dominated by men.

I also tend to find that the kind of people who rock up at Bexhill to protest about who is playing in goal in a Tier 6 women's football match get genuinely shocked when the majority of women playing, volunteering, refereeing and supporting on the day tell them that they are not welcome. (As happened, it was quite funny.)

They can't get their handmaiden memes out fast enough.

But, anyway, here's Meg Rapinoe, someone who I suspect the protesters at that game would never heard of, giving her opinion.

You mentioned the issue of transgender inclusion in sports, which is such a hot subject right now, as many states have passed bills that ban or limit transgender sports participation. Where do you stand on this issue?

"I’m 100% supportive of trans inclusion. People do not know very much about it. We’re missing almost everything. Frankly, I think what a lot of people know is versions of the right’s talking points because they’re very loud. They’re very consistent, and they’re relentless.

At the highest level, there is regulation. In collegiate sports, there is regulation. And at the Olympic and professional level. It’s not like it’s a free-for-all where everyone’s just doing whatever.

And I think people also need to understand that sports is not the most important thing in life, right? Life is the most important thing in life. And so much of this trans inclusion argument has been put through the extremely tiny lens of elite sports. Like that is not the way that we need to be framing this question. We’re talking about kids. We’re talking about people’s lives. We’re talking about the entire state government coming down on one child in some states, three children in some states. They are committing suicide, because they are being told that they’re gross and different and evil and sinful and they can’t play sports with their friends that they grew up with. Not to mention trying to take away health care. I think it’s monstrous.

I would also encourage everyone out there who is afraid someone’s going to have an unfair advantage over their kid to really take a step back and think what are we actually talking about here. We’re talking about people’s lives. I’m sorry, your kid’s high school volleyball team just isn’t that important. It’s not more important than any one kid’s life.

Show me the evidence that trans women are taking everyone’s scholarships, are dominating in every sport, are winning every title. I’m sorry, it’s just not happening. So we need to start from inclusion, period. And as things arise, I have confidence that we can figure it out. But we can’t start at the opposite. That is cruel. And frankly, it’s just disgusting.

So, we need to really kind of take a step back and get a grip on what we’re really talking about here because people’s lives are at risk. Kids’ lives are at risk with the rates of suicide, the rates of depression and negative mental health and drug abuse. We’re putting everything through God forbid a trans person be successful in sports. Get a grip on reality and take a step back."

[RP London]

21 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

There are a lot of men on this thread discussing what should happen to women's sport. A bit like the wider discussion on this topic.

giving our views yes, but all are welcome to contribute to the thread. I would guess this is a male dominated forum.

I would hope, when the bigger decisions are being made, not just on a scientific basis, they are taking the views into account of those that are playing. Swimming certainly has outspoken female swimmers speaking out, on both sides, and being consulted, so would hope that other sports are doing this too. 

I would also hope that Trans Women would be consulted when the plans for inclusion are being brought together too.

[nadera78]

3 minutes ago, RP London said:

giving our views yes, but all are welcome to contribute to the thread. I would guess this is a male dominated forum.

I would hope, when the bigger decisions are being made, not just on a scientific basis, they are taking the views into account of those that are playing. Swimming certainly has outspoken female swimmers speaking out, on both sides, and being consulted, so would hope that other sports are doing this too. 

I would also hope that Trans Women would be consulted when the plans for inclusion are being brought together too.

Yes, FINA released figures suggesting 80+% of swimmers supported categories based on biological sex, so they've done some groundwork in that respect. I think we can safely say it's unlikely that RL has done anything similar, if they had it would have become public knowledge in such a small and rumour-fuelled sport. 

[RP London]

9 minutes ago, nadera78 said:

Yes, FINA released figures suggesting 80+% of swimmers supported categories based on biological sex, so they've done some groundwork in that respect. I think we can safely say it's unlikely that RL has done anything similar, if they had it would have become public knowledge in such a small and rumour-fuelled sport. 

another reason why I just dont understand why the announcement was made.. take your time, consult on the solution there was no rush, the key is to get it right.

[dkw]

48 minutes ago, RP London said:

another reason why I just dont understand why the announcement was made.. take your time, consult on the solution there was no rush, the key is to get it right.

Maybe there was something on the horizon that meant they had to make this statement and ruling, the fact they didn't say why they did it now doesn't mean there isn't a reason.

[Barley Mow]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

We are talking about banning trans women from sport, toilets, changing rooms - eroding their rights

We are taking about banning them from certain categories of sport, toilet, changing room. I don't think I've heard anyone suggest an outright ban.

Now obviously the categories are those in which those transgender people would feel most comfortable (even to the extent of not participating in sport if excluded from their preferred category - something we should try to avoid).

This must however be balanced with the rights (perhaps rights is too strong, but I'll go with your wording) of biological female players to also feel safe and able to take part.

I'm not sure what the correct answer/balance between the conflicting sets of rights is. There may not even be one that satisfies everyone. But I'm glad that IRL and others are exploring the issue and hopefully will find the right answer.

[dkw]

Inclusion should not also lead to another set of people feeling under threat, no matter how harsh that sounds. Inclusion allowing Transgender people in to certain situations will absolutely lead to other people being under threat, both mentally and physically. What worries me reading some of this, as a father of a young girl, is the extremists fighting for it and against it are all looking to push horrendous agendas at times, and without considering the impact this could have on others. 

The simple fact in our sport is it is a physical, collision based sport, and transgender women playing it against natural women will lead to problems,  both physically and mentally, there simply is no getting away from that. 

[RP London]

16 minutes ago, dkw said:

Maybe there was something on the horizon that meant they had to make this statement and ruling, the fact they didn't say why they did it now doesn't mean there isn't a reason.

True, but the only really thing that would make you do this now would be that someone was playing that could be involved at the elite level, and to be honest I think we would have heard about that person coming through the ranks already. I cant think of anything else that would mean you had to make this announcement like this now.

[dkw]

Just now, RP London said:

True, but the only really thing that would make you do this now would be that someone was playing that could be involved at the elite level, and to be honest I think we would have heard about that person coming through the ranks already. I cant think of anything else that would mean you had to make this announcement like this now.

Not necessarily at the elite level, in fact pretty much any level that is currently within their remit has to be looked at. 

I wonder how this sits with the insurance, health and safety policies etc that all clubs have to now produce and adhere to.

[John Drake]

Three posts removed for off topic digression.

Please do not force me to lock this thread.

If you've nothing new to add to the Rugby League aspect of the discussion, and want to discuss wider societal issues, as already requested, please do so in the political sub-forum, not in here.

Thanks.

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

We are taking about banning them from certain categories of sport, toilet, changing room. I don't think I've heard anyone suggest an outright ban.

Now obviously the categories are those in which those transgender people would feel most comfortable (even to the extent of not participating in sport if excluded from their preferred category - something we should try to avoid).

This must however be balanced with the rights (perhaps rights is too strong, but I'll go with your wording) of biological female players to also feel safe and able to take part.

I'm not sure what the correct answer/balance between the conflicting sets of rights is. There may not even be one that satisfies everyone. But I'm glad that IRL and others are exploring the issue and hopefully will find the right answer.

 

4 minutes ago, dkw said:

Inclusion should not also lead to another set of people feeling under threat, no matter how harsh that sounds. Inclusion allowing Transgender people in to certain situations will absolutely lead to other people being under threat, both mentally and physically. What worries me reading some of this, as a father of a young girl, is the extremists fighting for it and against it are all looking to push horrendous agendas at times, and without considering the impact this could have on others. 

The simple fact in our sport is it is a physical, collision based sport, and transgender women playing it against natural women will lead to problems,  both physically and mentally, there simply is no getting away from that. 

I find it interesting that many of the sports do appear to focus on fairness over safety. The safety focus does seem to come more from campaigners. And I think some of that is that when you have a sport that makes no concessions or categorisation based on height, weight, strength, pace etc, it can easily come under challenge. 

[RP London]

2 minutes ago, dkw said:

Not necessarily at the elite level, in fact pretty much any level that is currently within their remit has to be looked at. 

I wonder how this sits with the insurance, health and safety policies etc that all clubs have to now produce and adhere to.

Dont disagree.. but this ban is only from internationals.. which is why i dont really understand it..