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13 minutes ago, Billy Bob said:

However when there was one league with 32 teams, even if you were getting stuffed by the top clubs, rugby fans got too see the top teams with international stars.

It was always one league with 30 teams marra.............for the Challenge Cup two amateurs were included to make it an even 32.

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13 minutes ago, dkw said:

I agree with most of that, but I've always thought a club should get 3 seasons free from relegation and allowed to build, give them time to recruit, promote youth etc. Currently a club goes up, gets what it can, might get a few ageing overseas players on bloated contracts hoping it works. Maybe a 3 season stay of execution, with an end of 2nd season review of the progress. It might be harsh on others but currently the balance is so against promoted teams, especially via a play off, it makes it damn near impossible for an SL club to compete.

I like the 2 x 14 teams too, maybe with a direct route in from the Conference also. Though often I would expect the winners of that to not actually want to go semi pro.

I think the top NCL division should be rebranded as the third tier of RL, but with no promotion as those clubs are financially secure without the burden of going semi-pro and paying players, but rebranding would give them a higher profile.

I think we are all in agreeance that the current structure at all levels isn't working and the added pressure of avoiding relegation just adds to an untenable situation and pushes clubs towards bankruptcy. 

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3 minutes ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

I think the top NCL division should be rebranded as the third tier of RL, but with no promotion as those clubs are financially secure without the burden of going semi-pro and paying players, but rebranding would give them a higher profile.

I think we are all in agreeance that the current structure at all levels isn't working and the added pressure of avoiding relegation just adds to an untenable situation and pushes clubs towards bankruptcy. 

The last sentence is bang on, of the 2 clubs at the top of the championship unless the leagues change one is going to be left picking up the pieces of a heavily invested season, with the likelihood of having to compete with a relegated side stronger than them next season. What do they do, can they continue investing to get promoted, or if that investment is pulled they will plummet and be in a very precarious position.

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8 minutes ago, dkw said:

I agree with most of that, but I've always thought a club should get 3 seasons free from relegation and allowed to build, give them time to recruit, promote youth etc. Currently a club goes up, gets what it can, might get a few ageing overseas players on bloated contracts hoping it works. Maybe a 3 season stay of execution, with an end of 2nd season review of the progress. It might be harsh on others but currently the balance is so against promoted teams, especially via a play off, it makes it damn near impossible for an SL club to compete.

I like the 2 x 14 teams too, maybe with a direct route in from the Conference also. Though often I would expect the winners of that to not actually want to go semi pro.

You cant give teams 3 seasons free from relegation - because that will Stop promotion. unless the team above the safe team gets relegated.

Assuming for arguments sake that the promoted teams all stay at bottom of SL table

Which means in year 1 team A gets promoted team 12 in SL gets relegated [normal]

Which means in year 2 team B gets promoted team 11 in SL gets relegated {A safe]

Which means in year 3 team C gets promoted team 10 in SL gets relegated {A+B safe]

Which means in year 4 team D gets promoted team  9 in SL gets relegated {A+B+C safe]

Which means in year 4 team D gets promoted team  9 in SL gets relegated {B+C+ D safe]

Which means the team fourth from bottom would get relegated every year?

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I think you are missing the point DP - at this moment in time there isn't the quality of player to sustain 3 professional leagues and the problem is going to get a lot worse, certainly in the short term (ie next 5 years)

The lack of quality players within the game is driving up the price as only the richer clubs with a sugar daddy prepared to squander millions can afford players who 10-20 years ago would have been deemed average at best.  

The game needs a period of stabilisation, especially with the TV rights up for grabs and the only way that can be done is by stopping promotion and relegation for a minimum of 5 years to allow clubs at all levels to get their houses in order and also allow the RFL and their marketing partners a chance to reevaluate not only the professional game, but also what's happening at grassroots, as without a strong base the game is going to continue to stagnate.

Realistically removing promotion and relegation will only really affect Leigh and Featherstone and possibly Halifax as no other clubs are in a position to challenge for a Super League spot as you need a huge player budget and it takes a few years to be able to build a side that could compete for promotion.

In short the whole shebang from top to bottom needs rubbed out and started again and all areas of the game need to put pressure on the RFL to take on board concerns from clubs and supporters many of whom are turning their backs on the game as its become boring and repetitive 

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4 minutes ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

I think you are missing the point DP - at this moment in time there isn't the quality of player to sustain 3 professional leagues and the problem is going to get a lot worse, certainly in the short term (ie next 5 years)

The lack of quality players within the game is driving up the price as only the richer clubs with a sugar daddy prepared to squander millions can afford players who 10-20 years ago would have been deemed average at best.  

The game needs a period of stabilisation, especially with the TV rights up for grabs and the only way that can be done is by stopping promotion and relegation for a minimum of 5 years to allow clubs at all levels to get their houses in order and also allow the RFL and their marketing partners a chance to reevaluate not only the professional game, but also what's happening at grassroots, as without a strong base the game is going to continue to stagnate.

Realistically removing promotion and relegation will only really affect Leigh and Featherstone and possibly Halifax as no other clubs are in a position to challenge for a Super League spot as you need a huge player budget and it takes a few years to be able to build a side that could compete for promotion.

In short the whole shebang from top to bottom needs rubbed out and started again and all areas of the game need to put pressure on the RFL to take on board concerns from clubs and supporters many of whom are turning their backs on the game as its become boring and repetitive 

The game is nowhere near what it used to be, as you say boring and repetitive. I only watch town now years back I would watch all sky super league and would watch an amateur game Saturday if town A team weren't playing.

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go **** yasell ya little **** gain NL1 then take ya **** out ya dads **** then speak proper rugby talk. you jameating little spotty ****...itchy waa waa 2008...

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7 minutes ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

I think you are missing the point DP - at this moment in time there isn't the quality of player to sustain 3 professional leagues and the problem is going to get a lot worse, certainly in the short term (ie next 5 years)

The lack of quality players within the game is driving up the price as only the richer clubs with a sugar daddy prepared to squander millions can afford players who 10-20 years ago would have been deemed average at best.  

The game needs a period of stabilisation, especially with the TV rights up for grabs and the only way that can be done is by stopping promotion and relegation for a minimum of 5 years to allow clubs at all levels to get their houses in order and also allow the RFL and their marketing partners a chance to reevaluate not only the professional game, but also what's happening at grassroots, as without a strong base the game is going to continue to stagnate.

Realistically removing promotion and relegation will only really affect Leigh and Featherstone and possibly Halifax as no other clubs are in a position to challenge for a Super League spot as you need a huge player budget and it takes a few years to be able to build a side that could compete for promotion.

In short the whole shebang from top to bottom needs rubbed out and started again and all areas of the game need to put pressure on the RFL to take on board concerns from clubs and supporters many of whom are turning their backs on the game as its become boring and repetitive 

Stopping P & R will damage more teams than it would help.

If you have to change anything and you want to stop P & R then consider Martyn Sadlers plan for regional leagues as if you read it it stops the boom and bust plans, gives more derbies , stops loop fixtures and every league will have some big matches and gives the option for all teams to build .

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

Stopping P & R will damage more teams than it would help.

honestly don't think it will marra, there was no relegation between 2008-13 and there was also no relegation in 2015.

I'm not saying under performing teams shouldn't be relegated if they fall below the on and off field standards, but the game needs a reset period of stability and you ain't going to get that in the short term with relegation looming as clubs will always stretch their budget to buy 'that player' in the hope he's the one that helps them evade relegation when that money could be put to better use building infrastructure within their club to help long term sustainability.

Good business sense goes out of the window when it comes to all professional sports clubs and we are at that point where the RFL need to decide which clubs have something to offer to the professional game, and which ones don't.

You'll see the RFU go through the same process shortly 

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7 hours ago, anok4u said:

Oh shut up, I'm saying my opinion on town on a town forum.

Is there any need for that? 

People are complaining about Chris and his contract, the decisions he makes, the lack of signings etc etc. Your just being reminded that Chris would be happy to speak to anyone. 

So stop being a keyboard warrior and give the man himself 'your opinion' ! 

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27 minutes ago, THMS said:

Is there any need for that? 

People are complaining about Chris and his contract, the decisions he makes, the lack of signings etc etc. Your just being reminded that Chris would be happy to speak to anyone. 

So stop being a keyboard warrior and give the man himself 'your opinion' ! 

Zzzzzzzzzz

go **** yasell ya little **** gain NL1 then take ya **** out ya dads **** then speak proper rugby talk. you jameating little spotty ****...itchy waa waa 2008...

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4 hours ago, dkw said:

The last sentence is bang on, of the 2 clubs at the top of the championship unless the leagues change one is going to be left picking up the pieces of a heavily invested season, with the likelihood of having to compete with a relegated side stronger than them next season. What do they do, can they continue investing to get promoted, or if that investment is pulled they will plummet and be in a very precarious position.

 

1 hour ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

honestly don't think it will marra, there was no relegation between 2008-13 and there was also no relegation in 2015.

I'm not saying under performing teams shouldn't be relegated if they fall below the on and off field standards, but the game needs a reset period of stability and you ain't going to get that in the short term with relegation looming as clubs will always stretch their budget to buy 'that player' in the hope he's the one that helps them evade relegation when that money could be put to better use building infrastructure within their club to help long term sustainability.

Good business sense goes out of the window when it comes to all professional sports clubs and we are at that point where the RFL need to decide which clubs have something to offer to the professional game, and which ones don't.

You'll see the RFU go through the same process shortly 

dwk / D to RR,

Sorry for butting in, and in truth all this should be on another thread, but here goes.

This is all nonsense. We should be encouraging clubs to grow not stagnate. If you look at the licensing period of 2008-2013, if your argument is true this should have allowed the SL clubs to develop British players, invest in their infrastructure, develop their grounds, etc. However none of this happened. Instead they still brought in the large number of overseas players, we were still left behind the Australians in terms of international RL, we didn't see teams bringing in lots of extra sponsorship, most of the RL grounds just got 6 more years of rust and Sky go bored of games between the likes of Cas/Wake/Salford/Hull KR at the bottom of the league that had no passion (without relegation) that had no bearing on who might win the league. All of this made us less attractive to the TV companies. Why was the Hull KR v Salford million pound game (after the middle 8s) so compelling viewing in 2016? It was because it meant something. The only way to grow clubs is to give them something to aim for, by having glass callings (no promotion) you take this away from clubs. This puts clubs and therefore the sport on a downward cycle. 

Rather than stopping clubs like Leigh and Featherstone getting promoted to SL, clubs should be thinking how can we grow our club to put ourselves in a similar position. Not getting promotion will not put these clubs in a precarious position to go again next year, because they have the funding to continue. In the case of Fev this comes from:

Gate receipts @£700,000 (3400 average crowds x £16 a head average, £22 in on the day for adults but the average will be less given concessions, season tickets, etc.). Incidentals on match day @220,000 (tea, coffee, beer, etc. at average £5 a head, it's £4 for a beer). Sponsorship @£200,000. Central Monies for league position @200,000.

Which comes to @1,300,000 in revenue before talking about other revenues, e.g. merchandise (shirts, etc.), Squad Builder (@£24,000 a year), none rugby events (weddings, birthdays, etc.). Gledhill posted on social media that the Fev wage bill this year was @£1.2 million.

As a sport (and individual clubs) we need to broaden our appeal, make as many games as possible important so as to make more people want to come and see them, to buy sponsorship, to make TV companies pay more to cover our sport, to encourage more people to play and therefore broaden the player pool, in turn increasing the quality of the player pool to be able to support more clubs. Getting rid of promotion and relegation doesn't do this.

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I'm sure I'll think of something funny to say soon.

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Posted (edited)

Trouble is the current system doesn’t allow clubs to grow or develop their own players below super league !

This was proved in reduced TV income as the product has become substandard 

no reserve rugby to allow clubs to nuture and develop their own players which leads to an over reliance on bang average journeymen !

the current system may work for a few clubs but doesn’t work for the majority !

the game is in a mess …end of !

….and I’ve never said there should be no promotion or relegation, but I did say it should be franchised for up to 5 years to get some stability back into the game.

you are also correct in what you say about clubs investing in players instead of their facilities and infrastructure - but that’s purely down to weak management by the RFL who didn’t enforce their own recommendations and follow their own business plan.

once they let it go for the likes of Castleford and Wakefield they had to let it go for everyone else 

 

Edited by Death to the Rah Rah's
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1 minute ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

Trouble is the current system doesn’t allow clubs to grow or develop their own players below super league !

reduced TV income as the product has become substandard 

no reserve rugby to allow clubs to nuture and develop their own players which leads to an over reliance on bang average journeymen !

the current system may work for a few clubs but doesn’t work for the majority !

the game is in a mess …end of !

fair enough but stopping P & R wont fix that

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31 minutes ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

Trouble is the current system doesn’t allow clubs to grow or develop their own players below super league !

This was proved in reduced TV income as the product has become substandard 

no reserve rugby to allow clubs to nuture and develop their own players which leads to an over reliance on bang average journeymen !

the current system may work for a few clubs but doesn’t work for the majority !

the game is in a mess …end of !

….and I’ve never said there should be no promotion or relegation, but I did say it should be franchised for up to 5 years to get some stability back into the game.

you are also correct in what you say about clubs investing in players instead of their facilities and infrastructure - but that’s purely down to weak management by the RFL who didn’t enforce their own recommendations and follow their own business plan.

once they let it go for the likes of Castleford and Wakefield they had to let it go for everyone else 

 

Licensing is stopping P&R.

Fev applied to run an academy to bring through young players who couldn’t get a gig at SL clubs, but were told by the RFL/SL they were not allowed.

Removing P&R, licensing, cutting SL to 12 or 10 teams, no reserve grade, limiting academy’s, introducing DR, etc. are not about growing the game, but about keeping as much money and protecting the clubs in SL.

I just hope that IMG understand all of this and come up with sensible suggestions to change our sport into one that is growing.

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I'm sure I'll think of something funny to say soon.

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10 minutes ago, The Grinder said:

Licensing is stopping P&R.

Fev applied to run an academy to bring through young players who couldn’t get a gig at SL clubs, but were told by the RFL/SL they were not allowed.

Removing P&R, licensing, cutting SL to 12 or 10 teams, no reserve grade, limiting academy’s, introducing DR, etc. are not about growing the game, but about keeping as much money and protecting the clubs in SL.

I just hope that IMG understand all of this and come up with sensible suggestions to change our sport into one that is growing.

Well other than the promotion and relegation issue I think we pretty much agree on every other matter, but I would have increased the number of clubs in super league by 2 for the 5 yr period I suggested not reduced it to 10 teams, as I think that would really kill the game at the top level as it would just mean more boring loop fixtures 

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14 hours ago, The Grinder said:

Licensing is stopping P&R.

Fev applied to run an academy to bring through young players who couldn’t get a gig at SL clubs, but were told by the RFL/SL they were not allowed.

Removing P&R, licensing, cutting SL to 12 or 10 teams, no reserve grade, limiting academy’s, introducing DR, etc. are not about growing the game, but about keeping as much money and protecting the clubs in SL.

I just hope that IMG understand all of this and come up with sensible suggestions to change our sport into one that is growing.

Correct on all points 

RFL and SL only interested in top level

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14 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

Well other than the promotion and relegation issue I think we pretty much agree on every other matter, but I would have increased the number of clubs in super league by 2 for the 5 yr period I suggested not reduced it to 10 teams, as I think that would really kill the game at the top level as it would just mean more boring loop fixtures 

SL WILL NOT increase numbers as they will have to share their money. For example [as a guide I dont know exact figures.

20Million divided by 12 = £1.7 M each  [ish] as per now 

20Million divided by 14 = £1.4 M each  [ish] - Worse

20Million divided by 10 = £2 M each  [ish] - Better

That is a taboo subject [or just greed]

Why do you think they want to go to 10

If sky cut money again they will go to 6 etc.

SuperGreed dont give a #### about the teams below as long as they get ALL the money

AND THAT IS WHAT IS RUINING THE GAME - NOTHING ELSE

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Derwent Parker said:

SL WILL NOT increase numbers as they will have to share their money. For example [as a guide I dont know exact figures.

20Million divided by 12 = £1.7 M each  [ish] as per now 

20Million divided by 14 = £1.4 M each  [ish] - Worse

20Million divided by 10 = £2 M each  [ish] - Better

That is a taboo subject [or just greed]

Why do you think they want to go to 10

If sky cut money again they will go to 6 etc.

SuperGreed dont give a #### about the teams below as long as they get ALL the money

AND THAT IS WHAT IS RUINING THE GAME - NOTHING ELSE

 

I think they maybe need to hear supporters views before making any decision on the league size.

Reducing to 10 teams will have a bigger effect on the next TV deal as supporters will switch off in droves as nobody wants to watch loop fixtures

I would promote Leigh and Featherstone now (if they finish 1&2) and the fear of no relegation for a few seasons would allow them to gradually build up their infrastructure and at least give them a fighting chance of staying up.

Edited by Death to the Rah Rah's
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1 hour ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

I think they maybe need to hear supporters views before making any decision on the league size.

Reducing to 10 teams will have a bigger effect on the next TV deal as supporters will switch off in droves as nobody wants to watch loop fixtures

I would promote Leigh and Featherstone now (if they finish 1&2) and the fear of no relegation for a few seasons would allow them to gradually build up their infrastructure and at least give them a fighting chance of staying up.

Took the fear of relegation to get Huddersfield off the bottom of SL last time there was no promotion and relegation. The same clubs remained at the top and the same over the hill, overpaid overseas players plied their trade in SL. 

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Championship & Championship 1 clubs, should explore the possibility of breaking away from the RFL and vote to take the Challenge cup competition with them.

If this could be legally done, then a new league of 16 or 18 clubs could sell the TV live screening of matches to the BBC, ITV etc, and also sell the challenge cup games.

Income that is raised can then go to the clubs in this new league.

RLF, Super league & Sky TV, can then go and sling their hook.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Billy Bob said:

Championship & Championship 1 clubs, should explore the possibility of breaking away from the RFL and vote to take the Challenge cup competition with them.

If this could be legally done, then a new league of 16 or 18 clubs could sell the TV live screening of matches to the BBC, ITV etc, and also sell the challenge cup games.

Income that is raised can then go to the clubs in this new league.

RLF, Super league & Sky TV, can then go and sling their hook.

 

 

Might as well L1 get nowt off sky now [well nothing that couldnt be replaced elsewhere.

24M pot of which approx 20m goes to SuperGreed and 4M goes to RFL and Champ and L1 and heard that is to be halved in a couple of year  - Just searched RFL Central funding:-

Under the current broadcast arrangements, Championship and League 1 clubs receive a combined £4million in central distribution. In 2022, that figure will be dramatically slashed in half, with Rugby League Live of the understanding that clubs outside Super League are getting a pot of only £2million to share between themselves.

So Would it be impossible to find a contract for 2M a year and SG can shove the 20M where the sun dont shine

 

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On 05/07/2022 at 09:22, anok4u said:

I don't buy we were to late to sign players, we should have been talking to players before the season ended just on the slight chance we got promoted. 

100%,   I think the Coach has made some major recruitment errors but to be fair, I get the feeling we maybe thought we could scrape by this season on the cheap, a strategy that has really come back to haunt us. Remember back to prevous  chairman's comments re recruitment for this season and saying  something along the lines of not wanting to move focus from current squads achievements and that we would be recruiting in due course, Well that went well???? 

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7 hours ago, Onreport said:

100%,   I think the Coach has made some major recruitment errors but to be fair, I get the feeling we maybe thought we could scrape by this season on the cheap, a strategy that has really come back to haunt us. Remember back to prevous  chairman's comments re recruitment for this season and saying  something along the lines of not wanting to move focus from current squads achievements and that we would be recruiting in due course, Well that went well???? 

Correct.

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